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RANT: I am so done with Brooks saddles

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RANT: I am so done with Brooks saddles

Old 08-31-14, 09:55 AM
  #126  
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I am 72 yrs old, overweight (by 40#), not fit, etc. When I raced in the early 60s, I rode Brooks; first a B17 and then a Swallow (B15?). Neither was perfect. The B17 rubbed against my hamstrings which could become very painful after 50 miles or so. It also made my crotch/genitals numb and even painful. The swallow solved the hamstring problem but I still got numb. Being young & ignorant, I simply accepted that bicycle racing was gonna hurt my crotch.

Fast forward fifty years:
I no longer accept pain as inevitable. I question "that's the way it is" statements.
When I decided to forgo my car and depend upon bicycles as my way of getting around, I began to re-learn bicycle technology -- having fun with this.
One of the first things I "re-learned" was that my butt, or at least parts of it, didn't get along with traditional saddles. Numbnutz is not normal and should never have been 'normal' as I see it.
After some thinking, a lot of pain, and considerable research ($$$), I concluded that almost all bicycle seats resemble ax handles and one should not sit on an ax handle at all let alone while riding a bicycle. My hat, if I wore one, is off to those think and experience otherwise.

To shorten the story:
I have two Adamo "Prologue" saddles. I no longer experience numbness or pain; I forget they are there when I ride most distances (up to 50 miles). The worst issue, numbness and genital pain, are simply -- gone. Really. Gone.
However, because of the way I am constructed, I still feel stress in hamstrings after 10 miles at speed. I am going to try the new Cobb "JOF Fifty Five" as it is a full centimeter narrower when my Hamstrings bear against the Prologue. (John Cobb essentially designed both the Adamo and the Cobb saddles)

In Any Case:
No one should sit on their genitals, man or woman. Several premium seat makers have finally recognized this and are offering similar (Cobb) designs. I predict that this is a movement and not just a fad.


For all the respect I have for Brooks, their tradition and quality, the time is well past for change. As much as I loved my Brooks saddles, especially the Swallow with its sleek and purposeful appearance --- I'll never again ride my bikes while sitting on an ax handle. ;o)

Joe
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Old 08-31-14, 05:58 PM
  #127  
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Originally Posted by JoeyBike
You must know that most folks riding Brooks saddles in 2014 are either stubborn old men or hipsters driven by style and peer approval.
Really??

That hasn't been my observation.

Most folks riding Brooks saddles ride long distances and have chosen Brooks after trying numerous other saddles that just didn't work when the distances got up over the double century.


I'm certainly not a stubborn old man.
I'm definitely not a hipster.

I'm a middle-aged woman ... a long-distance cyclist who has tried numerous other saddles, none of which met the mark. In desperation, and with a great deal of scepticism, I tried a Brooks. I was NOT convinced after the first week or two ... I figured I'd be sending it back. I expressed my frustrations on either this forum or another one, and Rowan, who I had met a few months earlier at the PBP in 2003, replied to my post and suggested I tip the nose up a bit. I did ... and that was that. Cycling comfort began.
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Old 08-31-14, 06:08 PM
  #128  
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Originally Posted by chasm54
Different strokes. In my own case, it's the Brooks that disappear. ... In my case I suspect it's because I'm not quite symmetrical - the impressions made by my sit-bones on the Brooks are of different depths - so that on a saddle that doesn't conform to my shape the pressure is never evenly distributed between right and left.
+1

I'm not symmetrical either.

Sitting on a Brooks, for me, is almost as comfortable as sitting on the sofa. I can do long rides, and I'll notice pain in my shoulders, chest, lungs and legs ... but I don't even think about my sitting area.

And interestingly, in the decade I've been riding Brooks saddles, I've logged a lot of distance, and have done a lot of long, long, long rides ... but I've never had a saddle sore. The Brooks saddle just seems to be the right shape and size for me.
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Old 09-01-14, 11:37 AM
  #129  
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Originally Posted by Joe Minton
I am 72 yrs old, overweight (by 40#), not fit, etc...
I note that a recurring theme in your posts is the not-too-subtle hinting that, because you have it all figured out for yourself, you have it all figured out for everyone else too. The idea that Brooks needs to change because you don't find them as comfortable as something else is as foolish as the idea that all car makers should offer only blue because that's your favorite color.
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Old 09-01-14, 12:19 PM
  #130  
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Joe, I think its fair to say that any saddle disregardless of what its made of, will work properly by not letting ones private parts have pressure on them by the seat. The times I have had numbness have been when softer gel seat s were no longer supporting my sitbones properly, allowing everything to sink down into the seat and get squershed. A leather seat will take your sitbones shape and support just enough there so your sensitive private parts aren't sitting on the saddle. That's been my experience with seats anyway.
Ironically I've just developed a slight saddle sore and I'm certain the cause is newer bike shorts, the padding is a touch too small and rubs a bit, my worn out older shorts had me riding 100-130km per day for a week a few weeks back on the same brooks with no issues as usual.

But back to your comment about sitting on yer privates, I disagree that you infer that brooks do this, cuz as all seats, they shouldn't be.

Glad you have a seat that works for you, that's all that matters.
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Old 09-01-14, 12:38 PM
  #131  
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Joey...check this guy out....holding a B17 and what do we have behind this hipster....another B17. This is the storage room before PBP and if you don't know who this guy is, no wonder you do not understand the benefit of a leather saddle for long rides.....like many hundreds of miles each.

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Old 09-01-14, 04:48 PM
  #132  
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Originally Posted by RR3
Joey...check this guy out....holding a B17 and what do we have behind this hipster....another B17. This is the storage room before PBP and if you don't know who this guy is, no wonder you do not understand the benefit of a leather saddle for long rides.....like many hundreds of miles each.

I'll take the Rivendell. He can keep the saddle.

Here is a shot of my second-to-last Brooks in 1989.



Would not have taken a thousand dollars for it at that time.
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Old 09-02-14, 10:14 PM
  #133  
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I was thinking about you today whilst finishing up my first 40 mile ride perched atop a Brooks 67!
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Old 09-02-14, 10:32 PM
  #134  
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Originally Posted by Lou Skannon
The Brooks saddle was a present from my touring partner. The only way I could get rid of it was by pretending it had been stolen. Nobody takes a seat and leaves the seat-post; so I had throw it away as well.
This is a great story.
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Old 09-03-14, 09:14 PM
  #135  
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Originally Posted by shipwreck
You are basically saying that the OP is venting about something caused by incompetence or laziness in not studying the esoteric mysteries of cow hide, rather than simply being one of many who don't like brooks.
Well he doesn't have to like Brooks, but ranting is another matter. Are we really in your view supposed to take the product rants of the ignorant or lazy seriously? Buy whatever one wants, spread ignorance if one prefers, but we don't have to take that seriously.

Most products requires some minimal sophistication if you want to be a knowledgeable user. Leather is exactly the same in that regard.

Going out on a limb here, but I would venture a guess that 99% of brooks owners who are satisfied with their saddle are not the "leather whisperer".
I think I basically said the same thing myself since I suggested that both the pro and con groups are largely ill informed. "Leather whispering" is an odd idea since any utility to whispering probably goes to zero the moment the kill bolt is placed into the forehead of the animal. Not so much a mater of talking to the inanimate material as just knowing a few principles that govern it's use.
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Old 09-03-14, 10:23 PM
  #136  
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Originally Posted by ppg677

As far as the B17S-- the intended use is for a woman wearing a dress? Are you flipping kidding me? What kind of woman riding wears a dress on a touring bike these days? Sure, I can picture a pretty lady wearing a sundress on a city bike (in some pretty little European town). But my vision in that picture is a spring-loaded B67, not a saddle intended for touring bikes. What a stupid product.
I would. The B17S was one of the models I was considering for myself.

Not that I tour... But I'm still not sure about those springs...

And what is wrong with touring in a skirt?
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Old 09-04-14, 10:44 AM
  #137  
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Well, since we're talking about leather saddles... if anyone has a ruined Brooks or other leather saddle, please consider sending it to me. I put new leather on them.

There is some debate about whether current Brooks offerings are of the same quality as their classic saddles from the 1980s and earlier. My own experience suggests that they are now softer and make a better first impression, but don't hold up as well.
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Old 09-07-14, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by rhm
There is some debate about whether current Brooks offerings are of the same quality as their classic saddles from the 1980s and earlier. My own experience suggests that they are now softer and make a better first impression, but don't hold up as well.
I don't know about Brooks, because there are English sources for real veg tan, but they are probably too expensive. Other than that kind of attention to detail the modern day leather is not as good as pre-feedlot, etc... leather. A few years back the custom boot trade lost their main supplier of insole leather, there were some threads where the big name boot makers where all long-faced and wondering where they would get a replacement. The legendary wear and comfort of their boots they confessed to each other, basically came down to the availability of this last source of leather. Dark days, then someone discovered a Canadian source, and they were back in business. But the point is that even the premium hand picked leather custom makers of holsters, or boots, etc... use is not what it once was. When I got back into the craft after about 30 years I had a large collection of leather I had made the odd pieces I personally needed during that period. That old stuff from the 70, even though aging is not an advantage, was vastly better than what was available from the same source today. The new leather at it's worst is like that foam craft sheet, compared to the hard stuff we used to get.

As far as offering a softer seat that lasts less long, leathercraft 101. Got to give the punters what their brains allow them to buy no mater how little that may be,
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Old 09-07-14, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by MassiveD
I don't know about Brooks, because there are English sources for real veg tan, but they are probably too expensive. Other than that kind of attention to detail the modern day leather is not as good as pre-feedlot, etc... leather. A few years back the custom boot trade lost their main supplier of insole leather, there were some threads where the big name boot makers where all long-faced and wondering where they would get a replacement. The legendary wear and comfort of their boots they confessed to each other, basically came down to the availability of this last source of leather. Dark days, then someone discovered a Canadian source, and they were back in business. But the point is that even the premium hand picked leather custom makers of holsters, or boots, etc... use is not what it once was. When I got back into the craft after about 30 years I had a large collection of leather I had made the odd pieces I personally needed during that period. That old stuff from the 70, even though aging is not an advantage, was vastly better than what was available from the same source today. The new leather at it's worst is like that foam craft sheet, compared to the hard stuff we used to get.

As far as offering a softer seat that lasts less long, leathercraft 101. Got to give the punters what their brains allow them to buy no mater how little that may be,
That's interesting.

As far as Brooks is concerned, I don't know about the quality relative to their products of years gone by. But I'm pretty surprised by some of the stories of them becoming stretched in a couple of years use. I have a lot of miles - many thousands - on a five year-old B17 and an 8 year-old Swift, and I'm a fairly heavy rider, but I have barely touched the tensioning screws on either saddle. They're both in great shape.
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Old 09-07-14, 01:12 PM
  #140  
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Originally Posted by rhm

There is some debate about whether current Brooks offerings are of the same quality as their classic saddles from the 1980s and earlier. My own experience suggests that they are now softer and make a better first impression, but don't hold up as well.
That was my experience; I put a Swift on my bike, and Loved it. So much so, that I started buying them for the rest of my bikes. Then it happened; the dreaded sag. I tightened it up, and again it sagged. I found that the absolute best thing about a Brooks saddle is it's resale value. I had absolutely no problem dumping them all on ebay, and go figure; I didn't take a loss. If you're thinking about trying a Brooks, do it. If it doesn't work out, you can sell it without issue.
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Old 09-07-14, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by mm718
I am 1000 miles into my Brooks Flyer and am underwhelmed. It feels OK, I don't notice it too much but I rode it the other day for the first time in a long time without padded shorts liners and it felt rock hard, which made me realize that it's really a lot less comfortable than the gel saddle on my road bike. It's also 18 ounces heavier than it needs to be and I don't like how slippery it is, the need to cover it every night, that it makes my bike more attractive to thieves, etc. So I am thinking of trying something new maybe another gel saddle or possibly the Charge Spoon, which is inexpensive and has received great reviews.
Quoting myself above... I may be going back to the Brooks Flyer. I just tried out the almost universally loved Charge Spoon on my local loop and found the ride to be very harsh. I was aware of the saddle the whole way and in a bit of pain. It's possible that with time I may have partially adjusted to this saddle but what I really missed was the springs of the Flyer. Don't let anyone tell you that these only work for heavier riders the difference is marked and I attribute this to the springs not just the difference between the saddles themselves. If the result is greater comfort and less fatigue at the end of a long day, I'll put up with the extra weight, need to wear shorts liners, leather care, etc. Maybe tipping the saddle up slightly will take care of the "slippery" issue.

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Old 09-07-14, 05:04 PM
  #142  
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I've been readjusting and repositioning my Brooks for the last 350 or so miles and nothing I have done seems to have made it any easier or less painful to ride. I finally had it yesterday after a 56 mile ride when the last 15 or so miles required me to get off the bike every few miles to give my butt some relief. And that was with padded shorts and chamois butter. Within a few hours of returning home, that saddle was off the bike, never to return.

Edit: I ride a steel Big Dummy with fat 26" tires.

Keith

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Old 09-07-14, 08:44 PM
  #143  
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I was riding in an urban setting today, coming down a hill into a busy complicated intersection - a four way stop. I had my eyes up watching the traffic coming the different ways - a couple of the roads are three lanes wide with various turn restrictions.

There was some kind of service access portal in the road - a hole maybe eight inches across and anybody's guess how deep down in the asphalt before you hit the metal plate. BLAM I hit that stupid hole square and solid! The shock was a real surprise!

I must say - the springs on the Champion Flyer really saved me! OK I have 2 inch tires also, at about 40 psi. That helps a lot too. But other than the surprise, it wasn't really painful at all.

I remember wow it was 30 years ago I would be riding my beautiful Legnano around with sew-up tires etc. A classic racing machine, in contrast to my present beast. But on the Legnano, a solid smack like that would have me in pain for the rest of the day.

Yeah, if you can stand up on the pedals for such things, they're really no problem. 95% of the time that is a feasible solution. But sometimes the constraints of the situation create other priorities.

I like my beast, springs, fat tires, and all!
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Old 08-19-15, 10:23 AM
  #144  
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Originally Posted by Six jours
1) Saddles are like shoes. Brand A may be great for one fellow and terrible for another. Same for brands B through Z. No reason to take it personally if one brand works better for someone and worse for someone else.

2) Brooks quality has decreased over the years. They used to use only the best part of the hide. Now they use all of it. So it's more of a lottery than it used to be. You might get a good one that lasts forever. You might get a complete POS. The "select" models may be the equivalent of the old (pre 1985 or so) models. Or maybe not. And the idea that "mad cow" has anything to do with it is really, really funny.

3) None of them tend to work very well for the "modern" (seat well back and bars well below the seat) position. Brooks saddles were designed at a time when the typical position included high handlebars and a well-forward seat. Many folks (myself included) find that raising the bars makes a wondrous difference. You probably also will find that once the bars are raised, the seat can be angled upwards so that the rear portion of the seat is level, making the nose of the saddle point upwards at a surprising angle. This means that you are no longer thrown onto the bars by a downward-sloping saddle, and also that the upward-pointing nose no longer digs into your naughty bits. If you insist on a handlebar lower than the saddle, you may well find that there is no acceptable compromise: if the seat points upward, the nose digs into you, and if you lower the nose, the rear of the saddle will tilt down and slide you into the nose anyway. And regardless, because you didn't buy the select grade the saddle will be worn out before you finish experimenting anyway.

4) None of the above is accurate for anybody but me. Some people insist that Brooks is the only saddle worth making and that if it doesn't work for you then you are doing something wrong. Other people insist that Brooks cannot possibly work for anyone (after all, it didn't work for them) and that anyone claiming otherwise probably enjoys BDSM in their spare time.

5) HTH!

This has been my experience as well, having gradually gone from a MTB and upright seating position to more aggressive drop bars....the Brooks Swift used to work fine for me, but not anymore. And I owned several, on all my bikes, all made around the same time - the thickness and quality of the hides did indeed vary widely, even though they were all the same model.
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Old 08-19-15, 10:41 AM
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Patience is the key to breaking them in. And as far as a"fat based" treatment is concerned, that's all over the place.My Brooks B67 in honey brown was installed in Jan '15 and just recently received its second treatment of Proofhide. It's beginning to feel really sweet, especially after positioning the seat just slightly less than 1 cm forward and in the next nose-up position. What a difference a tiny bit of adjusting makes.
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Old 08-19-15, 11:44 AM
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Created a situation to melt the waxes in the Proofide, by warming the saddle while upside down .

Did it once 30 years ago and just rode it . When on my wet-west Irish coast tour, I just Left a plastic bag over it

while I wore my raingear.
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Old 08-19-15, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by fietsbob
Created a situation to melt the waxes in the Proofide, by warming the saddle while upside down .

Did it once 30 years ago and just rode it . When on my wet-west Irish coast tour, I just Left a plastic bag over it

while I wore my raingear.
+++1^^^

During the hot months here in the deep south, I allow the seat to bake in the 100F southern sunshiny weather to heat for around an hour before applying Proofide and I then allow the waxed seat to bake for the remainder of the hot , sunny afternoon. The sun does an excellent job in promoting wax absorption of the Proofide for softening the seat.

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Old 08-19-15, 03:22 PM
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I am putting leather saddles of one brand or another on ALL my bike as I can afford it. Plastic gimmicky saddles that only last a year or two just aren't cutting it. A well broken in saddle is so dang comfy...for me. Not necessarily for everyone.

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Old 08-19-15, 03:32 PM
  #149  
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Saddles are one of those special and specific items to cyclists for their bikes that are as individualistic as one can get plus an as important an item as one can find for comfortable bike riding. Name any popular brand saddle and you have hordes of people that on one side swear at them and the other side that swears by them. Buying a saddle solely based upon other's experience seems in most cases to be fruitless to me.

Good luck to all that are currently having saddle problems in getting the situation resolved.
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Old 08-19-15, 04:35 PM
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Proofide , in my treatment really didn't soften it significantly but it the waxes, absorbed by the leather, did resist moisture damage over the years.
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