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Discrimination

Old 11-05-14, 07:15 PM
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jargo432
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Discrimination

Well, I joined the ACA and found out they have education tours where you take two days of classes then tour for four days. They actually have one in Texas, however it would seem that I'm too old. NICE
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Old 11-05-14, 08:22 PM
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I doubt it is discrimination If you are to old to do it. then you are just to old You didn't tell your age but those tours are not easy ones and maybe they feel you are not up to the challenge.
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Old 11-05-14, 08:41 PM
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Originally Posted by jargo432 View Post
Well, I joined the ACA and found out they have education tours where you take two days of classes then tour for four days. They actually have one in Texas, however it would seem that I'm too old. NICE
Are you referring to 'Introduction to Road Touring - Under 30'? I'd note that they do have several sections of that program without the 'Under 30' tag, albeit not listed for Texas currently (but in FL, VA, WI, OR). They do cite the non-discrimination policy:
In accordance with Federal law and U.S. Department of Agriculture policy, this institution is prohibited from discriminating on the basis of race, color, national origin, sex, age, or disability. (Not all prohibited bases apply to all programs.)
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Old 11-05-14, 08:47 PM
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Originally Posted by wbuttry View Post
I doubt it is discrimination If you are to old to do it. then you are just to old You didn't tell your age but those tours are not easy ones and maybe they feel you are not up to the challenge.
Based only on age? That would indeed be age discrimination. I doubt that you're going to understand that though, since without you're knowing anything other than they said he was too old, you presumptuously declare "then you are just to old".

For all you know, he has twice your physical ability.
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Old 11-05-14, 09:01 PM
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Originally Posted by wphamilton View Post
Based only on age? That would indeed be age discrimination. I doubt that you're going to understand that though, since without you're knowing anything other than they said he was too old, you presumptuously declare "then you are just to old".

For all you know, he has twice your physical ability.
Evidently I mentioned that already Hamilton when I said that he may not be up to the challenge and If he is physically able then by all means . But if it is a age based class then if it say 30 yrs old or under then maybe he is to old for that class .Here you go
Under 30 Intro to Road Touring - Texas | Guided Tours | Adventure Cycling Association this is what he is talking about. But I forgot he is to old to know what he is talking about. And Hamilton I never said he was not physically able to do it now did I? ACA said he was to old for this course. just like they would tell me also. When they say under 30 they don't mean if you are over 30 we will still let you join the class otherwise they would not have that designation on the website now would they?

Last edited by wbuttry; 11-05-14 at 09:17 PM.
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Old 11-05-14, 09:12 PM
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Originally Posted by wbuttry View Post
Evidently I mentioned that already Hamilton when I said that he may not be up to the challenge and If he is physically able then by all means . But if it is a age based class then if it say 30 yrs old or under then maybe he is to old for that class .Here you go
Under 30 Intro to Road Touring - Texas | Guided Tours | Adventure Cycling Association this is what he is talking about.
Clearly OP doesn't consider himself physically unable to do it, or he wouldn't have asked "discrimination", nor said "however it would seem that I'm too old". He wouldn't have ended with the sarcastic "NICE"

Not up to the challenge has nothing to do with this thread, OP, nor the advertised tour. YOU have assumed it, based on nothing more than OP being over 30. A word to the wise: there is no tour, anywhere, that caters to new riders that a normally fit rider over 30 can't handle. Or over 50, for that matter.

The "protected class" pertaining to age might not apply to the federal regulations for an "under 30" class. But on the face of it, it literally is discrimination.
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Old 11-05-14, 09:17 PM
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That particular tour is clearly intended to appeal to an age group that isn't well represented in bike touring.

While I don't consider myself to be exactly old at 47, if I was a 22-year-old I'd be much more interested in riding with people plus or minus a few years from that age, not the typical tourists in their 50's on up. As such, I think the ACA is doing exactly the right thing by targeting the under-30 crowd.
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Old 11-05-14, 09:24 PM
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Originally Posted by wbuttry View Post
Evidently I mentioned that already Hamilton when I said that he may not be up to the challenge and If he is physically able then by all means . But if it is a age based class then if it say 30 yrs old or under then maybe he is to old for that class .Here you go
Under 30 Intro to Road Touring - Texas | Guided Tours | Adventure Cycling Association this is what he is talking about. But I forgot he is to old to know what he is talking about. And Hamilton I never said he was not physically able to do it now did I? ACA said he was to old for this course. just like they would tell me also. When they say under 30 they don't mean if you are over 30 we will still let you join the class otherwise they would not have that designation on the website now would they?
There should be no reason for any tour to be limited other than "adult" physically capable of doing the ride.
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Old 11-05-14, 09:26 PM
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Originally Posted by wphamilton View Post

The "protected class" pertaining to age might not apply to the federal regulations for an "under 30" class. But on the face of it, it literally is discrimination.
It would be discriminatory if they only offered 'Intro to Road Touring' to those under 30. But they offer multiple sections: some for those under 30, some for only women, and most that are open to everyone.
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Old 11-05-14, 09:28 PM
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Originally Posted by andr0id View Post
There should be no reason for any tour to be limited other than "adult" physically capable of doing the ride.
Do you think a lot of 20-30 year olds are going to want to tour with 50-60 year olds? In my experience--no, they don't. So having a ride specifically to introduce a younger demographic to touring makes a lot of sense.
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Old 11-05-14, 09:30 PM
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Originally Posted by mulveyr View Post
That particular tour is clearly intended to appeal to an age group that isn't well represented in bike touring.

While I don't consider myself to be exactly old at 47, if I was a 22-year-old I'd be much more interested in riding with people plus or minus a few years from that age, not the typical tourists in their 50's on up. As such, I think the ACA is doing exactly the right thing by targeting the under-30 crowd.
And as do I we don't have enough young people out there wanting to travel like the older generation does plus the younger generation needs to learn stuff like that I wish I was under thirty again so I could travel a lot more and have the die hard knees and die hard endurance to ride all over the country and not worry about it. I'm 41 so I am not old by no means but we make some noises once in a while getting up. And it useally is like ohhh or snap crackle pop goes our joints.
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Old 11-05-14, 10:09 PM
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I want to preface this by saying I understand where you are coming from.

Now, meaning you or your opinion no disrespect, I would like to suggest another perspective.

I've done a fair bit of mountain guiding, and delivered outdoor education to a wide variety of groups.

Some clients (women, different age ranges, etc.) feel more comfortable, and feel like they will benefit more from being amongst others that fit into their group. Having taught and guided age-range and sex specific groups in challenging outdoors situations, I think there is some validity to this.

Men and women, and people of different age groups tend to share different life experiences, and tend to solve problems in different ways. There are exceptions of course, but experience indicates this is mostly true.

I will give you these examples from avalanche courses I've taught. Generally, younger men tend to want to solve every problem with action, brute force, and "bro power." They depend a lot on upper body strength, and one or two strong characters to "take charge." Younger women tend to work in a more collective fashion, rely less on upper body strength, more on lower body strength (It's in the hips baby! as I used to tell some of my fun female-specific classes), and they tend to cluster into small groups, often without a clear leader emerging (which I need to happen in an avalanche education course). In this context, they also tend to spend too much time overthinking situations where I need them to move -- you have 15 minutes to locate those trapped and get a patent airway before survival rates start dropping dramatically. Ironically, as we get older, this leadership trend seems to reverse... especially in mixed sex classes, but I'll leave that one alone for now.

One other thing I've seen, is the tendency for older, more experienced males to try and dominate a younger group, which can lead to a lot of resentment among the youngsters, and pretty miserable trip for all involved. I'm not saying you would do this, but whoever is guiding the trip doesn't know you, and has to try to keep a lot of things together to make a successful and fun journey. Clients who don't have fun, don't come back. They tell their friends what a crappy time they had, and soon, the guide finds him/herself out of business.

As I said, these are just some general observations, not criticism directed at you, or me prejudging you. I don't know you.

As for a solution to your problem, yes, it sucks that you can't do the trip you want. Do they offer another without the age restriction? If not, I bet someone else offers one. If not, ask them if one of their guides would be into guiding you, or a group you assemble on the same trip. I got a lot of business from people putting together their own groups, and I usually enjoyed these groups immensely, because we generally had a lot more contact while I was pulling together the bazillion things I needed to pull together prior to the trip, and because I could tailor the trip to that group's specific needs.

Again, just another perspective I ask you consider.

Last edited by jwarner; 11-05-14 at 10:15 PM.
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Old 11-05-14, 10:43 PM
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I'm not a lawyer but when I looked up the age-protected class thing, it said that age is only protected in terms of employment, not public accommodations. That's why stores can offer senior discounts and presumably that's why ACA can offer restricted-age trips.

Personally, I find this sort of thing repulsive. If people want to segregate, we, and companies we support, shouldn't facilitate it.
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Old 11-06-14, 03:31 AM
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Originally Posted by wbuttry View Post
... I wish I was under thirty again so I could travel a lot more and have the die hard knees and die hard endurance to ride all over the country and not worry about it. I'm 41 so I am not old by no means but we make some noises once in a while getting up. And it useally is like ohhh or snap crackle pop goes our joints.
Oh please.

At 41 you should have "die hard endurance". You should be able to ride all over the country and not worry about it. If you're not able to do that, I encourage you to focus on your fitness over the next few months.


The average age of PBP riders (that's a 1200K randonnee held in France) is 49 years old. Average age. There are riders doing that who are in their 50s, 60s, and 70s.


The average age of participants on ACA tours is 50 ...

FAQ | Guided Tours | Adventure Cycling Association
"Who goes on Adventure Cycling tours?
The average age of our tour participants is around 50; however, you can expect participants ranging from their 20s to their 80s."

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Old 11-06-14, 03:38 AM
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My guess (without anything concrete to back it up because I've never had any dealings with ACA) is that the idea behind the "under 30" course is to provide a course for young people, with similar age-group interests, who may have quite limited and/or similar travel/camping/cycling experience.

I rather doubt it would have anything to do with ability. If it had something to do with ability, they'd have fitness prerequisites. Do they?


And to the OP ... if this is the only Intro To Touring course going in your area, and if it appeals to you, I'd encourage you to inquire about it. Ask some questions. Find out if it might be possible you could join ... being fully aware that you'll be in the midst of a group of under-30s who may (or may not!) have a whole different perspective on life than you.

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Old 11-06-14, 06:23 AM
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Originally Posted by mulveyr View Post
Do you think a lot of 20-30 year olds are going to want to tour with 50-60 year olds? In my experience--no, they don't.
As a veteran of an ACA x-country tour, I think you are dead wrong. Our group age range was 23 to 77. The only age group between those book ends that was not represented was the 40s. It was quite nice to have such a broad age range, and it did not negatively affect group dynamics at all. In fact, it enhanced it. And, BTW, the overall strongest person on the tour was 60.
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Old 11-06-14, 06:33 AM
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Originally Posted by indyfabz View Post
As a veteran of an ACA x-country tour, I think you are dead wrong. Our group age range was 23 to 77. The only age group between those book ends that was not represented was the 40s. It was quite nice to have such a broad age range, and it did not negatively affect group dynamics at all. In fact, it enhanced it. And, BTW, the overall strongest person on the tour was 60.
I haven't been on an ACA tour specifically, but have done a couple of other shorter organized tours that included a spectrum of age ranges ( usually with 200-300 riders). In all the cases they self-segregated during times off the bikes quite distinctly; post-college age, the ( very, very few ) 30-40's with kids, and the seniors. While people were generally good about it, there was definitely occasional tension when the older groups wanted to be in their tents at 10:00PM and up at 5:00AM, and the younger crowd wants to stay up past midnight and wake at 8:00AM. :-)
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Old 11-06-14, 06:35 AM
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Originally Posted by prathmann View Post
It would be discriminatory if they only offered 'Intro to Road Touring' to those under 30. But they offer multiple sections: some for those under 30, some for only women, and most that are open to everyone.
This.

It's amazing that some people will get upset over something so trivial. Maybe the OP should also kvetch about the company Women Tours, which only offers tours for women.
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Old 11-06-14, 06:43 AM
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Originally Posted by mulveyr View Post
I haven't been on an ACA tour specifically, but have done a couple of other shorter organized tours that included a spectrum of age ranges ( usually with 200-300 riders). In all the cases they self-segregated during times off the bikes quite distinctly; post-college age, the ( very, very few ) 30-40's with kids, and the seniors. While people were generally good about it, there was definitely occasional tension when the older groups wanted to be in their tents at 10:00PM and up at 5:00AM, and the younger crowd wants to stay up past midnight and wake at 8:00AM. :-)
Apples to oranges.
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Old 11-06-14, 06:43 AM
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Originally Posted by indyfabz View Post
Apples to oranges.
How so? If they're segregating themselves by age group, it's a pretty good indication that they prefer to be with people with their own age.
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Old 11-06-14, 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted by B. Carfree View Post
I'm not a lawyer but when I looked up the age-protected class thing, it said that age is only protected in terms of employment, not public accommodations. That's why stores can offer senior discounts and presumably that's why ACA can offer restricted-age trips.

Personally, I find this sort of thing repulsive. If people want to segregate, we, and companies we support, shouldn't facilitate it.
Exactly. In the legal sense I doubt that there's any valid allegation of discrimination. But in the real-life literal sense, it is a prejudicial differentiation based on age, literally discrimination.
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Old 11-06-14, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by B. Carfree View Post
Personally, I find this sort of thing repulsive. If people want to segregate, we, and companies we support, shouldn't facilitate it.
I see nothing wrong with the young folk wanting to hang together. And I'd just as soon get some sleep during their night time antics. ACA has plenty of events that cater to all age groups. They're just trying to create an inviting environment for an under represented age group. Nothing wrong with that IMO.
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Old 11-06-14, 09:02 AM
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I agree with those who characterize it more as social-discrimination rather than age-discrimination. Touring with anyone who is not in sync with you is very difficult and can ruin a tour. I would venture that most people on this site, who tour a lot, tend to go solo or with a specific partner, for that very reason.

BTW: If you think about it, I'm sure, there are plenty of social groups that you would rather not tour with.
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Old 11-06-14, 09:11 AM
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Thanks for the tip on the ACA. I think I want to do some of those tours.

Are there any other organizations out there like this that do these tours?
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Old 11-06-14, 09:46 AM
  #25  
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I have done several bike tours that were self planned and carried out, one ACA tour that was self-supported with a guide and a couple fully supported trips where the tour company even provided the bikes.

As a general rule I saw a lot of younger riders in the campsites that were on self planned trips, but the organized trips (thru ACA or other tour companies) had more older people.
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