queeringmind

Hello everyone!
Over the years I came several times to this forum and found the answers to many issues, but this is my first time posting.
I am putting together a steel frame bike, my aim is to use it for both one day rides and eventually with racks for some lightweight touring. I'm trying to find relatively cheap yet durable components (fyi, I'm based in Eu).
I'm still deciding if I want to go for a custom frame or to buy one, i.e. surly LHT, or perhaps the cheaper german Intec T6 Trekking Frameset. My doubts here relate to the fact that I'm afraid the top tube length on prebuilt (on the universal man!) frames will be to long for my build, I am indeed a woman thus have longer inseam and shorter torso, compared to males. Plus I would like to achieve a pretty relaxed riding position. As for any good touring frame, I am looking for something with generous chain-stay and headtube.

In the meanwhile, I have put together a built list, you should be able to visualized it following this link: https://www.rosebikes.it/wishlist/sho...5308/?n=544989

This will be a flatbar with grishifts (love them).

As you can see I opted for a 48 -36 -26t + 12-36 gearing b\c I believe that could get me anywhere, also with a loaded bike (a traditional road triple doesn't make much sense to me, and I'm too scared to go for a compact).

In terms of wheelset I have chosen Mavic A 719 rims + Deore XT hubs, 36 spokes, that gives me a 28-35 tyre clearance.
I am however in doubt, if I should upgrade to a more "roady" mavic open pro + ultrega hub (still 36). The former looks bombproof, the latter lighter, but will limit me to max 28 tires and I'm not sure about their durability (plus they cost more).

Ok, I guess my question now is: does this all make sense? Are the components compatible? Are there, within more or less this budget, better alternatives?

Thank you!!!!!

Tourist in MSN

Flat bar bikes usually use a longer top tube than drop bar bikes. So, if you have a short torso, a frame designed for drop bars may be advantageous when you set it up with flat bars. You should focus more on top tube length than seat tube length when you select your bike size.

A719 rims are pretty good for loaded touring with a heavy load. But if your plan is for lighter weight touring and if you are a lighter weight person (I am making that assumption based on your gender), you may decide later that the rim is much heavier than you want. I have used A719 rims with a heavy load, but I have that set of wheels right now on a rando bike, the wheels are much more robust than necessary.

Your hubs should match the frame dropout width. With steel frame that is not mandatory, I currently have one bike with an XT rear hub with 135mm spacing in a frame with 130mm dropout width. But, when setting up a new bike, it is best if you match dropout width to hub spacing.

You have a lot of component and frame choices in the EU that we in USA do not have access to. So, we might not be able to provide the best in recommendations for you. For example, I have never seen an Intec bike.

Doug64

The LHT has a proportionately longer top tube than comparable bikes with the "same" frame size. It would really be beneficial if you ride one before buying the frame. Long Haul Trucker frames, 54 cm and smaller, only come in 26" wheel size.

You can compare top tube length by looking at the geometry specifications of the various bike you are considering.
T06/T07 | INTEC Custom Frames & Bikes

Long Haul Trucker | Bikes | Surly Bikes

XT rear hub is built for 135 mm dropouts, and the Ultegra hub is designed for 130 mm dropouts. The LHT has 135 mm dropouts.

FWIW, One of our daughters is 5'5" and rides a 50 cm LHT, and our other 4' 11" daughter rides a 42 cm LHT.

Aubergine 

One thing you might consider is a "trekking" or "butterfly" handlebar. The benefit of these is that one side of the bar is closer to the saddle than a flat bar would be. So, you can have both a more aggressive riding position and a more upright, relaxed position. And as you can see, because the bars curve back towards the rider, they effectively shorten the reach to the bars. I love drop bars on my bikes, but I put a butterfly bar on my touring bike just so I could have that short reach and a more upright sitting position.

p.tumbleweed

If budget is a concern, try getting a factory bike fitted first. A good bike shop should be able to help you out with stem/bar choices to see if it will fit properly and be comfortable for you. A custom frame plus parts will probably be twice the cost or more.

Squeezebox

A custom frame will cost a lot, no need if you are not some strange size. For the cost of a custom you can get a much better off the rack bicycle. I've been attacked for saying this before, "buy the best bicycle you can afford" better bicycles are well!! Better!! There are a lot of really good touring bicycles in the $2K to $5K range. Much cheaper than the $10-15K racing bicycles, And much better than an LHT.

p.tumbleweed

I personally feel there are diminishing returns the more expensive the bike, beyond your entry-mid level touring specific bike. It also depends on its intended terrain.

Are $400 boutique cranks better than $100 cranks? Which one Is more serviceable when you're in Asia? To say something more expensive is better quality is not saying it's actually better for the rider.

Happy Feet

You have not been attacked for saying buy the best bike you can afford. You have been challenged for saying the LHT is not a good bike. There is a difference.

Biketouringhobo

132.5mm good for 130mm and 135mm hubs

djb

As mentioned, being in the E.U there are probably very competent bikes that we do not get here in North America.
I imagine that looking into some biking forums in your country (Spain?) and others will come up with some suggestions that fit within your budget.

I would just suggest getting some very good advice on frame size, and depending on how much you have ridden, apply your experience of perhaps bikes being too big for you, and making sure that you get a frame that is properly porportional to your body.

Handlebar stems, handlebars themselves, and even the grips, can all be changed to help with getting the distance from seat to the bars the right distance for you.

I have a number of women friends who have bicycles that are too big for them, and don't realise it, just that they are not comfortable riding. So be sceptical of what someone in a bike store may tell you, "this bike is fine for you".....

good luck with your research.

queeringmind

Dear everyone,
thank you a lot for your replies and suggestions.
In terms of budget, I can get a custom frame+fork here (Italy) for eu 450. The list I shared in the OP totals 650.
If I could find anything prebuilt that can compete with the components I've put together then I would go for it, and try and adjust the fitting playing with stems and handlebars. The thing is, this type of bikes are really impossible to find in LBS where I stay, and among those I've seen on line -- while it is entirely possible I have missed something -- most are aluminium, or there was always something off, being a gearing combo I didn't like (I have a compact on my road bike and I know it won't get me up some hills if I'm loaded), or supercheap non-brand wheelsets (and wheelsets are important, it is actually the only component I believe it is really wise to invest in, whereas, for my needs, a front derailleur is a front derailleur is a front derailleur) .
Btw, I had never seen the mentioned "butterfly" handlebar before, or actually, I might have seen something similar but mounted the other way around, i.e away for the rider and up, basically providing a sort of extended bar ends. It is an interesting concept, I wonder however how is the steering considering that you basically grip the bar behind the headset!?

And speaking of wheelsets, as "Tourist in MSN" said, I began thinking the A719 rims could be "oversized", and that an open pro laced with 36 spokes might be enough. I weight 67 kgs (147 lbs). The thing is the A719 allows me a greater flexibility in terms of tire width. However thank you for reminding me about the issue of different hub spacings. There are so many variables to take into account when putting together bike components!!

GamblerGORD53

Forget the goofball eyelet type rims. They add NOTHING insofar as strength or longevity. Often are WORSE with cracking holes. Velocity DYAD rims cannot be beat. They are about 23 mm wide for up to 50 mm tires at least. Been using 35c with my 3 for a total of 37,000 miles. Zero broken spokes or problems.

My custom bike and me was up to 300 lbs using a Rohloff. Also use a Sturmey Archer 5w. Both better than any derailler crap. Being in EU already, then Rohloff is NOT much more expensive. Ride 3 or 4 thousand miles and change the oil, not difficult. Maybe flip the cog at the same time.

I use a 1974 Raleigh swept back 70d handlebar. I can reach as close or far as I like, often one hand doing opposite. With 2 fingers on the grip I can be straight up. Try that with drops. pffft Brakes are where they belong, close to the rider. Broom handle mtn bars are pathetic.

MassiveD

Double eyelet rims are not goofball they are a different approach. Every rim that gets to be the default rims as the velocity rim has recently become, ends up with lots of crack stories, partially because the more in use the more cracks. Also maybe build quality problems that have affected Velocity as well. The rim types do not determine spoke breakage, so you would not expect to see broken spokes one way or the other. With the exception of incompatible components, more a problem at the hub end, but can be at either.

For this user something like an MA2 if it could be found, and they seem to exist in euro, would be ideal, lighter stronger and a really nice ride. The reason the Velocity type rims are ok without eyelets, to the extent that they are, is because they are deeper section/overweight. But modern cyclists prefer these sections so they are going to be there one way or another, why pay for the eyelets on top of all that.

Heavy riders or rides are not necessarily more damaging to wheels, they tend to be slow, and velocity square times mass is the key.

If you can get a custom bike frame for 450, and they know the touring segment you are interested in, end of story. Custom has many advantages, people today just aren't into it because brands are all powerful, but the crap we put up with from shoes to shirts is unbelievable.

If you are planing on Rohloff, a lot of general questions about what this or that to build your wheels with go away. The options available for Rohloff are thin and directed by the hub, at least for the rear. For instance getting Rohloff spokes was a pain.

MassiveD

If you go custom, then you should consider whether you need some of the stuff you have specified. I doubt I would adjust my stem, I never have, get the the headtube at the right height, and buy a lighter cheaper dogbone.

Get your seat before you get the frame, determine the fit to post, some like the Brooks are a little less adjustable. Get the seat centered over the post, and you don't need an offset post on a bike where the rear wheel doesn't crowd the frame. Then build the seat tube in place for all of that.

What doesn't make sense is to buy custom, get all the off the rack frame faults built in, then get all the parts with built in work-arounds for a custom frame. If you are building custom, think custom.

I would go 35 mm on the tires. The new thinking is for wider tires, and your custom should take up to 50mm.

mstateglfr 

Have you? I haven't read you be attacked for saying what you claim you've said.

I have seen you be attacked for ignorantly claiming the LHT is 'low quality tubing and components.

veganbikes

I would probably go with the Jamis Coda if I was going with a flat bar tourer on the cheap. Me personally I would go with an Elite and depending on my touring I would swap out the fork for a steel fork and maybe switch out the shifters for something like the IRD XC Pro thumb shifters (or Paul thumbies and DA bar end levers) or use a friction type shifter. There are parts on it that are lower end that I would switch out if I were building it up as a touring bike for myself and had a bigger budget but if I was doing it on the cheap it is a solid bike.


Reynolds steel and Deore derailleurs on a nine speed triple with front and rear rack mounts is not a bad little bike.


codaseries


If you can get Jamis I would highly suggest going with them as they make some nice stuff in steel all around their lines from touring to hybrids to mountain bikes (they make a mid fat hardtail called the Dragon Slayer which is pretty boss and the nicer steeled thinner tired older brother the Dragon Pro, one of which I might own at some point)

mstateglfr 

Butterfly(Trekking) bars are fantastic for longer rides when you dont want to use drop bars. I had some on an around town/family bike this past year and loved em. Hand position options are near infinite to help reduce hand soreness, and yet you have good control over the bike wherever your hands are on the bars.
As for your concern of gripping the bar behind the headset- That is a valid concern and it can be easily adjusted with a longer stem. You can see the stem keeps the grip area past the headset in the picture below. It has gripshifts with bar tape wrapped along the sides and up top. Another benefit of butterfly bars is that you can stretch out for short distances to help you get a little lower if you are fighting a strong wind, or to just stretch your back and body a bit while riding.

And yes, there are many variables to consider when putting together bike components. My view on wheels is that having the option to run fatter tires is a good thing. You dont need to go wild and get 40s or anything, but 32s just arent that wide and for me they provide more comfort than even 28s.

bikemig 

No one attacked you personally; there was a lot of criticism of your views. There's a difference.

MassiveD

Isn't that true? Is there a single component on the LHT that you would find on a top end custom touring machine? The more pertinent question is whether it maters on a touring bike.

"Quality" is a bit of a weasel-out in this case since it stands for a variety of attributes some of which are performance based and others of which are not. Most components on bikes in the LHT price range are not low quality in the same function sense that a Casio watch is not low quality compared to a Rolex. But there is a sense in which it a Casio is low quality compared to a Rolex beyond function. And now that I am looking for a strap for my daughter's Baby G-Shock there are regards in which Cassio is not all that high quality by any standard. If one had a completely unlimited budget one could find components that piece by piece were in every regard higher performing and better made than what is on an LHT.

The LHT is an interesting example because for a long time the LHT was a frame only proposition, without the dumbed down component set. At that time a lot of people built some pretty posh versions. Since Surly went with the speced out version, what Surly really though of the frame became more apparent from the build components they specified. It is hard to speculate on tubing quality when we have so little idea about what is in it. Does anyone know what parts are in it, how straight it is and so forth? It's hard to claim it is so great when it is just Chinese commodity grade frame components with good marketing.

There is a lot of support for touring on non-touring bikes, like MTBs, so how demanding are the requirements really? The LHT exceeds most expectations.

MassiveD

What I find incoherent about this perspective is that you can buy custom touring machines for 2-5K, custom frame everything. 2 is light, there are some people out there who deliver frames for 500-750, but they are not household names. But for 2-3 K I think you can get a lot of people to deliver a frame, and 2K should outfit a touring bike.

While I wouldn't call a woman with short torso and long legs a strange size, I think it is a proposition that a custom frame would make sense for. Weird things happen to frames at both ends of the size spectrum, not least of which is that the average guy building them is not that well qualified to know how to spec them. Custom wise that is a big problem also. There are some ladies who drop in here from time to time, and that have gone the custom route, and some places like the Northwest US have ladies who run frame businesses.

mstateglfr 

I sure wouldn't say it's true.
A double butted chromoly main triangle is higher quality than hiten. If it weren't, hiten would be spec'd on steel frame bikes all over the price spectrum.
The LHT wouldn't have an XT RD, it would have one of the A models(take your pick).
The hubs wouldn't be LX, they would be any number of generics which are less expensive side.

Etc etc etc.

The LHT could have easily been spec'd with lower quality tubing and components. Since it wasn't, I would not agree that it is low quality tubing and components.

Happy Feet

It also helps to remember what a LHT represents which is, a good generic design for touring that you can just step into without breaking the bank. I don't know the details but it seems the company decided to produce what people were looking for in a touring bike but had to often adopt or adjust from other sources or get custom built: Stronger traditional diamond frame, low gearing, multiple attachment points for racks, good brake design and long chain stays.

So yes, if price is no object you could get a custom made touring bike built, or if you like to wrench you could do as I do and build one out of used parts yourself or you could just buy a LHT and know that it is a proven design for touring. All depends where on the spectrum you fall.

Aubergine 

The Butterfly bars can be mounted with the bar ends either in front of the stem or behind it, so you can play with it to see how it works best. You can put the brake/shift levers either at the front of the bars or in the rear part, too. And as for holding the bar, I have not noticed any difference in how it steers, no matter where I put my hands.

On my bike, I have the bars mounted with the opening facing front, and the bars angled up a bit. (The opposite of the pic mstateglfr posted above.) I have the brake and shifter levers mounted on the forward extension. I normally ride on the forward extension, but when I want to sit up a bit I move my hands to the back. It is a nice setup, and a bit more versatile for touring than drop bars in my opinion.