veganbikes

So I am looking to upgrade to a new touring bike and build it up myself. I am pretty sure I am going for a Co-Motion Cascadia and have a build kit in mind (minus some stuff that is being switched from the Disc Trucker that isn't changing and isn't on this list for those reasons) but I could use some opinions. Maybe I might have picked something wrong or lower quality or there is really something better I should look at?

Drivetrain:
Crankset:
Sugino RD600, 26/36/46t square taper

Bottom Bracket:
Phil Wood Stainless Steel square taper

Front Derailleur:
Shimano Dura Ace FD-7703, (moving from Disc Trucker not changing)

Rear Derailleur:
Shimano Deore XT RD-M772 SGS

Cassette:
SRAM PG-990, 11-34T

Chain:
SRAM PC-991 or 971

Components:
Headset:
Cane Creek 110 series 1 1/18 Threadless

Brakes:
Avid BB7 Road S 160mm rotors front & rear

Shifters:
Shimano Dura Ace bar-end , SL-BS77 2/3 x 9-speed, friction setting (moving from Disc Trucker on bars)

Wheels
Hubs:
DT Swiss 540 Tandem, 6-bolt disc. 36h front 40h. rear (or 36 for both? or 40 for both?)

Rims:
Velocity Dyad 700C rim

Spokes:
DT Swiss Champion, 14g or Competition 14/15/14 (not sure which would be most sensible)


Cost is really not an issue. Granted I don't want to buy a $600 crankset or gold plated hubs but I do want a quality top notch build that will hopefully last many many many years of touring (with proper maintenance of course).

Doug64

That is a nice choice. My wife has a Co-Mo Nor'wester Tour that was built custom for her. It was my present to her when she retired. It is the bike that evolved into the Cascadia. I am fortunate to live within a 45 minute drive of their shop, and the folks there were great building a small frame that would work for the components we wanted to use, e.g., moving the standard placement of the seat tube water bottle bosses to allow a low positioning of the front derailleur to accommodate the 44 tooth chain ring. I think they got tired of seeing me. They are great folks to deal with.

If the budget allows have the folks at Co-Motion install a Cris King headset for you when they build the frame.

When I built up her fame, I used a Sugino DX500, 44/32/22 crankset which provides a really nice touring gear range. Unfortunately, the DX 500 is no longer available (don't confuse it with the XD series cranks). Something similar to this would be the only other thing you might want to consider. However, you may not need or want that low of gearing.

Have fun with you build, you won't be disappointed.

MassiveD

Just to beat Cyco, you could go for the triple Alpine spokes. In particular a good choice for DT hubs. Or find out what DT recommends. The point being, by choosing DT you have a rare chance to use the same hubs and spokes, if you selection isn't the max for that, then you may as well go for it.

I love the idea of a rear tandem hub, but in many cases there is no advantage over 135, which is more road replaceable. CoMo has huge experience here, but the idea goes like this. The actual reason the hub is wider is not the rigging angle on the spokes, it is to have space on the left side for a drag brake. I assume you will not be fitting that. SO find out whether you really are getting a stronger wheel, which would be nice as crazy as 9s are to start with. If rigging angles are your prime concern, you can investigate various options on that.

Particularly if you go for the 145 hub spacing, get a 40 spoke build. Might as well go for it, and since you aren't going to be able to replace the rear wheel on the road, very easily, you might as well build it as tough as possible. I actually feel that way for most most 700 C road touring bikes. The components are sometimes out of stock at large online sellers, they are not in stock in rural regions, so why not max the initial build strength.

Custom bike cost no issue, that is a Chris King headset. Cane Creek is good though. But come on!

Sad to go disk and end up with the nasty Avid stuff. There are some very sweet things coming out for Cross bikes in hydraulic, and disc. But I don't know which one to recommend. I run Paul stuff, and I am OK with it.

I am a Sugino guy or a White Idustries or Paul on a Rohloff guy. It is all square drive stuff. I currently have the WHite BB. My only reservation is that the system has it's weaknesses, and is tough to service, and some of my breakdowns have been on BB to cranks, and the tools you need are massive. Given the need to take cranks off when shipping bikes even in the most generous boxes, the Octalink might be smarter, but I haven't tried it myself.

bradtx

veganbikes, Experience with the Surly is your best guide for your Co Mo build.

If you're popping the dosh for a CK BB you may as well install a CK head set. A 40H rear wheel if that makes you feel better than 36H, but not as easy to find in stock if a replacement is quickly needed. I'd choose a Mavic XM 719 or A 719 rim.

Brad

cyccommute 

Several suggestions. First, MassiveD beat me to it but, yes, I'd suggest a 2.3/1.8/2.0 spoke. DT Alpine IIIs are good but they can be expensive and hard to find in single spoke quantities. I usually have to buy a whole box for $80 and then use half of the box. That get expensive fast. I've gone to using Pillar spokes which I get from Bdop Cycling. They are a good spoke and the price is only slightly more than a double butted spoke. You do need to purchase the spoke nipples separately, however.

I would suggest you be open about the front derailer. The DuraAce isn't Shimano's best effort. Yes, it's light but the Tiagra is a better design for triple cranks. It's wider and will cover a wider range of gears on the cassette without having to trim the front. It's also very cheap so you won't be out much if you decide to go back to the DuraAce.

I'd also suggest an external bottom bracket crank over the square taper Sugino. As much as I dislike suggesting Shimano, their external BB cranks are simple to install and remove. You can get a Phil Wood external bottom bracket if you like, although the Chris King is a bit lighter.

Finally, you should consider a Velocity A23 over the Dyad, especially in the rear. The A23 is slightly lighter but you can get it in an off-center drilling that allows for a more symmetrical rear wheel. With a thick headed spoke like the Pillar or Alpine, you'll have a wheel that is stronger with fewer spokes. 40 hole rims can be hard to find.

niknak

I agree. The external BB Hollowtech II design is the easiest to work on with the least amount of tools. Replacement BBs are cheap unless you go for a Chris King, but I don't think it's worth it.

The Cane Creek 110 headset is every bit as good as the CK headset. No need to change.

I'm not sure how much you weigh and how much gear you typically schlep on a tour but it seems you're attempting to overbuild a wheelset. Tandem hub with 40 spokes? Why? The Dyads are a good choice although you're using disc brakes, so you could consider a rim with no brake track like the Blunt.

Instead of the BB7s, I'd consider using the superior TRP Spyres. The Spyres are dual piston so you'll get even pad wear and every time you brake you won't be slightly distorting the rotor. Another plus is the pad adjustment knobs use a 3mm allen head instead of the T25 on the BB7s. One less special too to bring.

fietsbob

Dont have to use the chainrings that come out of the box, though 26 to 24t is not much of a difference ..

chainring teeth may be a bit thick for 9 speed chain Universal Cycles -- Sugino XD600 Crankset the spec is 7~8 speed .

the 8 speed Bar end "Ultegra" is the same quality as the One called 9 speed D-A..

probably better to go 40/40 rather than 40/36 since your other rim can be a spare for its damaged mate
36 is common, so the field bought spare wheel will work if you go 36 - 32 or 36 - 36.

BUT.. When people damage a fancy wheel , in the busy summer touring season , the premium hub is handed to you to mail home.

perhaps a steel axle Shimano Hub is more pragmatic as parts are most common ..

Phil's Mud shield fits inside the lock rings and adds a bit more shielding of intrusive grit wanting to contaminate the grease in the cartridge Bearings

IF Going to a External BB a MTB Triple will Offer a Lower Low gear .


Up coming is Pauls Comp cable disc caliper big aluminum Knobs need No Tool at all to turn to wear compensate the Pads ..

veganbikes

Chris King makes nice stuff, good quality bling but makes it more of a target the Cane Creek gives a 110 year warranty and is basically the same quality for a tiny bit less.

Also many thanks!

I was going with a Phil Wood BB actually. I was thinking maybe going with Phil hubs though but I can more easily get DT Swiss.

I am so far happy with the DA FD though I guess I could get a Tiagra and give that a try but I haven't noticed any problems using the DA.

Curious why you would go external vs square taper aside from installation? Square taper seems like it is a little more universal and not likely to get phased out at least not anytime soon whereas some of these new BB designs seem like they are more and more proprietary and likely to get phased out more quickly as the engineers find something so much better?

I will probably go with 36-36 I think that is reasonable. Though I plan on running 28-35 tires (I am starting off at 28 and seeing if I want wider) and I am unsure which rim would be better there?



I think I am sold on not doing 40 spokes.

I might have to give the TRPs a try though I am hoping they worked out all of the issues that they had to recall those suckers for. I have loved BB7s on my DT but the dual piston idea sounds swell so maybe maybe. I have a T25 anyway for my racks and stem on other bikes and I have two multi tools that have a T25 so that isn't a biggie.

Sugino's site says the XD600 is 9 speed compatible as does QBP. I may switch chainrings but the XD600 is almost the same gearing as my DT which has served me fine so far minus two teeth on the largest ring.

Since I am looking to index I am probably going to stick with the 9spd DA shifters.

Would you go with Shimano over Phil Wood?

The Paul Klamper looks promising. I had forgotten they had plans for a disc brake. The idea of dual pistons is nice as Nicnak pointed out but cutting out weight and making it tool free and usable with Avid Elixir pads is pretty swell.


You have all given me a lot to think about and some great suggestions and some questions for ya'll on some points made. Many thanks to those who have responded and I will certainly grab some photos of my new baby when that time finally arrives and share them with ya'll.

fietsbob

External bearing MTB crankset ? probably. Wheel Hubs, versus DT, Yes .. particularly the Centerlock* On the front ..
rear the wheel stays on the. bike when shipped so less Of An issue..

* to keep the Disc Flat in shipping to start or return from a Tour, taking it Off the Hub and Packing it separately insures it wont be Bent in transit

Though I bought a Bike with a SON dyno Hub front wheel centerlock disc mount + adapter to use 6 bolt discs ..

Shimano Alfine Offers that option too , Dynamo + centerlock..

cyccommute 

The Phil hubs are a lot easier to work on if you need to replace a bearing. The procedure I've seen for DT Swiss was more complicated and requires extra tools. The Phil Wood FSC rear hub comes apart in your hands once you remove the axle ends with a 5 mm allen wrench. The front hub requires a but more work but it's still simple comparably and you use the axle to aid in bearing removal.

Alternatively, I'd suggest White Industries hubs. Slightly cheaper than Phils and they seem to be just a tad smoother. They aren't as easy to service but they are a good hub. The Mi6 is about the same price as the DT Swiss you are looking at. Both the Phils and the Whites are US made, which is a plus. I have 3 sets of Phils (one disc) and 3 set of Whites (one disc). All are excellent hubs.


Square taper has been phased out. It was phased out of Shimano's line about 15 years ago. There are a few hold outs in the knock-off market but the main manufacturers have moved on. There are a few things that are proprietary on individual cranks but that has more to do with how the left side arm fastens to the spindle. The external bearings are standard for most brands with the exception of Sram which uses a slightly different bearing. Shimano external bearings work on just about everything else. Phil makes an external bearing set that fits the Shimano crank and an adapter to make their bearing work with the Sram.

There are other reasons to go with the external bearing cranks, although ease of installation is a very good one. Square taper and other cranks (ISIS and Octalink) that bolt to the spindle can loosen. Properly torquing the crank helps prevent this but it's still happens. If you don't have a 14mm socket, it is difficult to tighten the bolt sufficiently and the crank can wobble on the spindle. This will quickly ruin the tapers and make the crank useless. You can quickly end up with a crank that can't be tighten no matter how much torque you put on the bolt. The clamping mechanism on the Shimano is easier to tighten so that it doesn't loosen and, if it does happen to loosen, you aren't as likely to damage the crank if it wobbles.

The external also makes chainline adjustment much easier. If you want to change the chainline with a square taper, you need a new bottom bracket. If you want to change the chainline with an external BB, you buy spacers. I run mountain bike cranks on my touring bike which have a wider chainline than a road crank. This can cause some problems with getting the front derailer far enough outboard to shift to the outer ring. With an external BB, I can change spacers until it lines up and everything works.

niknak

That's true for Shimano's upper tier stuff, but they still churn out plenty of square taper cranks and BBs for the budget market. Square taper isn't going anywhere anytime soon. Actually Hollowtech II is becoming more scarce than square taper. Most bike manufacturers are embracing the press fit bottom brackets these days to allow them to design all sorts of oversized frames. New bikes are becoming less and less serviceable by the average home mechanic

Bezalel

Being that the front shifter is not indexed, I don't see any real advantage of using an DA FD. I'd suggest a MTB FD, that way the cage will match the chainrings better and you can adjust your chainline better without running out of FD travel.

dwmckee

I built up a Cascadia two years ago. I definitely recommend going with the stainless drops and a kickstand plate. I built mine with Phil Wood hubs and an Ultegra 9-speed drivetrain (NOS sourced on eBay). I got the crankset for $99 and it is fabulous. Mated it to a DA bottom bracket. I have a front triple and STI shifters. I got my wheels as NOS on eBay for less than it would have cost to buy the hubs alone. I run a Velogical dyno on the rear rim for when I need lights. I run TRP HY/Rd calipers and I HIGHLY recommend them over the generic Avid BB7s. The Hy/Rds with 160mm HSX rotors will continually remind you how distinctively better the whole bike is.They do an impeccable paint job there. My only issue was the bike wound up a bit heavier than I expected when finished.

veganbikes

Well put. Though I do see the nicety of the external BB but I think square taper is my jam right now.

I will look into mountain FDs though so far no issues with the DA FD.

Why the stainless drops? (aside from paint concerns) Also curious what kickstand you use and if you are using it while fully loaded?

The HY/RDs are cool and I had considered them but I think for now I am going to stick with full mechanical just because I don't want to worry about brake bleeds at all while touring. I am sure it isn't much of an issue but I want to put some more tours under my belt before I would switch to the HY/RDs. Someone mentioned the Spyres and I might give those a try.

What did the bike end up weighing? I am hoping mine will weigh a bit less than my current Disc Tanker at 34lbs 3oz

Bezalel

I forgot to mention that most current FDs expect at least a 12 tooth difference between the big and middle rings. With your current chainrings, you will have to dig through the service manuals to find the right one.

dwmckee

The stainless drops look great and you will never ever worry about the rust starting around the drop faces. I use a Pletscher 2-leg kickstand and use it all of the time when and where ever I am riding. Great for touring with a load. Never worry about weight making the bike flop over.

The power and especially the control of the Hy/Rds is incredible. You will never worry about bleeding them. You will never even worry about adjusting them because they auto adjust for wear right down to the end of the pad. They just work and do it well. Very powerful. This nice of a bike deserves a brake caliper better than entry level bb7s. The Hy/Rds are just the best you can do with a cable, especially if you have a load. Spyres are also a nice step up from the old BB7s. I have Avid HSX rotors too for a straight and quiet rotor, 160s f & r. 180s were overkill and prone to skidding the rear but 160 is da bomb!

I never have weighed mine. I am scared to but I think it is less than your old steed.

headloss 

Definitely the case for DA which is either 12 or 13... My 5503 is 10t difference, I think most say 11t. Personally, I'd rather go IRD Alpina.

veganbikes

They do look nice but I don't know if I want to throw down that much cash on dropouts since I haven't had issues on my disc trucker. Then again...

I wouldn't say BB7s are entry level, I would leave that to BB5s and Tektros. I rather liked the BB7s that is why I reconsidered them in a lighter form. Though now I am considering the Spyres or possibly the HY/RDs.

Weight it. It is a scary process but it was kind of satisfying knowing how heavy the beast really is.

bradtx

OOPS, I've been considering a new wheel set for one of my touring bikes and moving one wheel set to the other. CK must've been burned into a couple of brain cells.

Again, your Surly is your best guide for what you like, dislike, what combinations work and those that can be improved. Build threads can cause needless second guessing. If feasible you may even try moving everything from the Surly to the Co-Mo to start with and then replace items one at a time.

If my project I would start with a new head set, BB and crank set. Those in your OP should be fine. Both of my touring bikes are Sugino equipped, but I would like to try an external bearing crank set if or when the time comes.

Brad

veganbikes

There is some second guessing but I want to go all out and there are products I haven't had a chance to try. The TRP Spyres seem like a nicer choice at a little less coin than the BB7S's I have been looking at. The 2 piston design is really a great move for mechanicals and I hope it turns into a trend. I haven't had issues with my 36h wheels and I had thought about going 40 or doing a mix of both which I am glad I am not anymore.

Plus part of this is talking it out to others to make it real and get a fresh perspective.

Tourist in MSN

I like the looks of an undished rear wheel, add my vote for the 145mm spaced 40 spoke rear. If you have the wheel built for you, buy some spare spokes when you get the wheels. I keep my spare spokes in my seatpost held in with a wine cork. The cork dried out and shrank, I wrapped some electrical tape around it to fit snugly.

If you go with a 145mm rear spacing, some racks that are designed for 130 or 135 can squeeze the rear dropouts inwards when the wheel is pulled. For example the Surly rack is pretty stiff and can push inwards on the frame. Do you know what rack you are using?

If you might want to charge a phone later, now would be the time to get the SON front dyno hub. Better lights and chargers are coming out every day, you could either go for a top of the line light with USB port for charging built in now or get a cheap light now and upgrade in a few years.

I prefer square taper, but it appears the externals are getting a lot of votes here. I have the self extracting bolts on my S&S bike.

If you go with a handle bar bag, make sure you have enough extra spacers on the steerer tube now so later you can remove the spacers and mount a second stem for handlebar bag.

Are you getting S&S?

Now for an off the wall idea - if I was getting a frame and fork from a custom shop, I would also have three brazeon fittings on each fork leg so I could use something like the Salsa Anything cage. Then if I wanted to carry gear on my front, but less gear than with front panniers, I could carry a couple small dry bags on each front fork leg instead of lowriders and front panniers.

Philly Tandem

For what it's worth, here's how I have my Co-Motion Nor'wester Tour (Cascadia predecessor) built up. Regarding the DT 540 hubs, I have two sets of them on my wife and my Pangeas. They are nice, but LOUD when freewheeling. I've lubed them with some Chris King lube, which helped a bit, but they are still loud. I haven't tried DT's special lube, but believe it is similar to the CK lube. If you can get Phil Wood hubs for a similar price, I'd go with them, but I know Co-Motion builds with the 540 hubs so you can likely get a better deal on them. I also question whether you need a 40-spoke rear wheel. I do fine with the 36-spoke wheel I have. Easier to have a matched set, IMO, and 36-hole rims are easier to find than 40-hole rims (but, to be clear, 36-hole rims are not that easy to find in 700c anyways).

Frame Co-Motion Nor'wester Tour S&S, steel
Fork Co-Motion steel, with lowrider brazeons
Wheels (stock/lighter weight): Velocity Aerohead with Ultegra hubs, 36 spoke, 700c
Touring Wheels (additional upgrade): Velocity Dyad with Phil Wood cassette rear hub, Shimano LX front, 36 spoke, 700c
Shifters: Ultegra STI 9-speed
Brakes: Shimano R650 long-reach dual-pivot calipers, Kool Stop salmon pads, Problem Solvers "Sheldon Nuts" fender-adapter bolts
Derailleurs: XTR M952 rear, Dura-Ace 7703 triple front
Cassette: XT 9-speed 12-34
Cranks: TA Carmina 110/74, 170mm, 50-36-24 TA rings (9 speed), square taper, with Sugino Autex auto-extra bolts
BB: Phil Wood with carbon shell, square taper
Pedals: SunTour XC Pro with toe clips/straps
Headset: Chris King Nothreadset 1-1/8"
Handlebar: Nitto Noodle 44cm
Stem: Velo Orange; with Problem Solvers locking headset spacer (great for S&S bikes and packing)
Seatpost: Thomson
Seat: Terry Liberator

dwmckee

You said budget not an issue. You are spending almost two grand for a frame, make it special.

I used to think bb7 were great too. Try out a better caliper and you too will not regret spending the extra cash on them. you can find BB7s on bikes that sell for a thousand. You are going to be four bills into this when all done so be sure it is really special.

dwmckee

I would not go over 36 spoke rims though. You already have a rim suitable for tandems and you now need to think about keeping some lively feel in it too.

MassiveD

Rim suitable for tandems is not meaningful in the absence of the spokes. Of course, there are loads where going all tandemy doesn't make sense, if the OP is 120 and carried a flight bag for all his stuff. Some of us are big and weight what a light tandem crew does, in reality we can benefit from a tandem approach, if tandems do.

But if you aren't committed to the tandem idea, don't build 145 or get oversized tubing or stays, if you are on that road at CoMo.

For me getting the 40 spoke is exactly the same trouble in 700c as the 36, best option is always online. Online is no issue. The smart move is to get an invincible wheel. Don't think that is enough, get a demountable rim you can carry.

Ofcourse you don't need CK, but if it's custom, it's CK. And face it, Out there people don't know what to steal. If anything they take your chain to fix their washing machine. Plus anything you see when you are riding should be extra nice. I actually run a stack of Ritchey roller bearing headsets I bought cheap, and Nashbar, cartridge bottom brackets. So cheap I can toss them if they ever wear out. But the advantage to home made frames is nobody knows it's custom.