LeeG

Yep, good enough works just fine. Imagine someone saying "I'm doing a road trip, should I get a Mercedes 550 or is a Toyota Camry good enough?" I've had three custom touring bikes from 25 and 35 yrs ago. One a Lippy in 27", Mikkelson in 700c and a Litton w. 26" wheels. The Lippy had horrendous frame shimmy with a medium light load and as a light rider that required me to clamp the top tube with my knees above 25mph with both hands on the hoods. The Litton was more of a SportTour kind of bike and the Mikkelson a comfy road bike that could take a rack. Mikkelson was stolen in two months. By the time I opened a bike shop I pretty much burned through the fetish aspect of high end stuff. It's there for folks who can afford it.

mm718

My thoughts exactly. Well put. And a question to those of you in the know... Is there really a body type that requires a custom frame? (Excluding people at the extreme ends of the height spectrum).

fietsbob

Kona is still an Import factory frame

CoMotion is a US builder so you have custom additions available rather than an as-is frame

and only a component exchange to make it more yours Yours But they sell an as is Bike too..

Bruce Gordon in Petaluma Cal is another Touring Bike Maker with a Long History ,

he also Hand makes his Own Racks which are perfectly integrated with his Frames ..

Ive been using his racks for 30 years.

I have 2 Frames I Got to Make for Myself . And 1 was in 1975, as I had access to tools and materials,

2nd one I had Access to More shop Tools and different Ideas Than what was The run of the mill Frame
and got to use a Mix of Cargo Bike and Tandem frame components ..

A no wiggle loaded Rig with a rear wheel lifting Prop Stand to make it freestanding .. using Bruce's Racks again.

MassiveD

One thing I find really difficult to tell is how much better the stuff they put into a custom frame, actually makes it. I mentioned my LHT level touring bike from 05. I hadn't had a road type bike for about 20 years, I had been all MTB. The frame in question, an Urbane Cyclist, theoretically made in the same factory as Surly, and a nice standard geometry frame I really enjoyed riding, was impossible to ride without my hands on the bars. Ridden with my hands on the bars it was easy to ride. I kinda wondered why I couldn't ride this standard thing without my hands on the bars. Something I had always been able to do with earlier bikes. It did occur to me that there could be an alignment problem, but I don't really know what that is like to a rider.

Custom bikes are built to thou degrees of accuracy. This always makes me snicker since I understand a few basic concepts of machining, and the idea you can build a bike to those tolerances, or the idea that they hold in use, is pretty far fetched. But if nothing else it probably ensures the bike isn't coming and going at the same time. Frambuilders are a pretty conscientious lot. I know I have spent days designing my own frames with revisions stretching over years. And every detail is scrutinized. Think of it this way. You guys think of every part of the bike, or most of them. When one builds frames one has to think of every part of the frame half a dozen ways before you even make the first cut. In some cases I might spend an hour or so modelling the part just to get in into the CAD. And some parts I design from scratch, then model, then build, then fit, then melt in, etc... A lot of this has no end result to the user. But some of it probably does. And in my case I am thinking touring thoughts a lot of the time when I make my frames, so there is a play back and forth in my mind when I am building. I average about 240, so my whole universe revolves around that number. That is the only bike I build. Most bikes are designed around 160. Every part of the bike is designed to work only with one component. I always buy my components before I build my frame so all components are aligned both in terms of gross problems (you may not get that at the surly level, do they check and tweak the drops. But they certainly don't build bikes to fit one drive train (though presumably it runs perfectly with their stock components). I also cut threads as one would in machinery, I don't have parts that wobble all over the place until the screw is finally tightened. I don't show my bikes to anyone, because I don't really enjoy finishing, I do them flat. It is also safer in the big city.

I am a big believer in the idea that you can just grab whatever bike and hit the road. My wife did a lot of touring before she met me and used to arrive in places and buy a bike from a thrift shop, then set out. I probably end up not doing things because I still haven't finished the bike. But it is still fun to have a bike that is a good as you can make it.

motorapido

I like this post a lot. It acknowledges the joy of obsessing over the details and the reality that you can make just about anything work. There is nothing wrong with seeking perfection or with making due with what you've got. Great post. Thanks.

nun

None of my bike are stock. Everyone is custom in some way....maybe not the frame, but definitely the components. I tend to buy the frame and components separately. The only bike I bought complete was a Cervelo RS and that's now got different wheels, rear derailleur, cassette, seat post, saddle and outer chain ring.

staehpj1

That is exactly how I think of it myself. I think some folks are just very "in to" the hardware for its own sake. If that makes them happy that is great, but I don't see it as having much to do with what it takes to enjoy a tour.

fietsbob

Bike Fridays' Touring bikes are Built to order also in Eugene OR like Co-Motion .. they have a distinct advantage in the small packing size to get you to where you want to see

without the big airline bike surcharge/fees.. Bike Fits in a Suitcase ...

dwmckee

I wondered about this too and I thought I had a pretty normal body. Then I got measured for a frame. For my height I have a pretty stubby torso and pretty short lower legs and a thigh that is nearly 2 inches longer than typical for my height. Who would have thought... Funny, but I don't seem to look any different. But when I when to a fitter on a stock bike I wound up with a seat set to the extremes on the rails even with a setback seatpost, stems that are odd lengths, etc... It was really hard to get fit to max power and comfort positions. So I went to CoMotion and ordered a custom frame. They played with seat tube angles and a few other things and now I have the most comfortable fitting bike I could ever imagine. It is like my favorite pair of shoes. I get off after a century ride and feel like I could go do another (planning to this year actually). I really had few complaints about a stock frame before, but now I am never going back. I never want to get off the bike. Even at a rest stop. One of those things that you just do not know until you experience it. I am sure a lot of people are well fitted on stock frames, but for me, I never really had that.

fietsbob

So how about Desires , not necessarily 'requires' ?


Ok maybe your arms ache holding your bars because the Taiwan company that made your frame did as they were Contracted to do
and its got a 73 degree seat tube , pushing you forward over the BB?

but for your use the body C of G would be more comfortable with more setback which you get with say a 68 or 70 degree seat post.

that dimension was maybe was only done 50 years ago .

tacreamer

I had built a long distance Randonneur with custom fitting and it fits me like a tailored suit. Alex Meade, the builder is a long distance cyclist as well. We spent some time discussing what I needed from the bike including a three hour fit session at his shop. The result is an extraordinary level of comfort minus any of the compression numbness, muscle fatigue or neck stiffness that I've experienced on several bikes that I meticulously put together for long distance brevets, including PBP, a 1200k in France.

With a change of fork, I'll be able to put low riders on, add a rear rack and use the bike for touring. So my long answer,is there a difference between a factory low end tourer and a high end custom fit bicycle, Yes, a huge difference.

Alex Meade custom Randonneur by TimothyCreamer, on Flickr

mm718

Interesting, DW. I wonder what I would gain from a custom bike? I have a pretty funky body, long torso/short legs but long thigh. My touring bike is an LHT with a long top tube. Everything feels pretty good but I don't think I have the "like a glove" feel that you and others in this thread have achieved.

dwmckee

My suggestion is to find a professional bike fitter first and have them do your measurements and do a fitting with your current bike as well to see how close a stock frame is to your needs. Even the fine tuning they do can make a significant difference. If it seems too far off then think about it. The telling thing for me was even at the limits of seat adjustment I could not get my knee in the right position over the pedal. My fitting was $150 and well worth it. He gave me a lifetime return fitting for free which I used to fine tune new frame. You still might do okay with stock, who knows. The one thing I was not able to do was ride a stock CoMotion frame compared to a custom one. I do not know how comfy that would have been. (I cannot tell you how much of the comfort is fron the custom sizing and how much was from the great basic frame design and materials).

The LHT is pretty basic. Might be interesting to find a Waterford, Soma or Gunnar dealer in your area and try one of their stock frames.

BTW, I do have a pretty good fit amazingly on a 1980s Bob Jackson that is a 62 cm frame (I an 5' 11" and normally ride a 57 cm). It has a really short cockpit, but the stock frame fits me extremely well with the exception that the standover is a little tight. This was my favorite ride before the CoMotion. Certain brands or even a women's frame may work well for you but you have to do some trying around. Also look for the better frames to find the 'glove' feel.

tom cotter

Best answer - perceived difference. I shopped for a high end tourer before i bought my newest Trek 520 ten years ago. BTW, I still have and ride my 1989 trek 520. Shopping the high end tourers i noted that many of the compontents were exactly the same or similar. Where upgraded components were used, you could upgrade the "Lowly 520" to the same level for a lot less money than buying new Comotion Americano. The frames at COmotion and company may or may not be better. The puriest will argue that they are far superior,thus justifying the cost. OK, that may or may not be, but 26 years and counting on my oldest 520. How much better does that frame have to be?

That said, there is two very good reasons to spend two or three times as much on a bike. You can and you want to! And if that's you go for it! Understand you aren't getting better, you are just paying more money.

tacreamer

Tom, I will argue that purchasing a high end tourer is better, better tubing, better service and better fit. Here is the fitting form from COMOTION's site: https://co-motion.com/pdf/Co-Motion_Fit_Guide.pdf.

To start off your order a company like COMOTION or Bike Friday can and will personalize your fit, this is something a mass produced robotically assembled Chinese frame cannot do. Small American companies use experienced craftsmanship in producing their bikes and since they are paying real people, not robots their prices are a bit higher. In buying a bike from such builders you are supporting American builders who have a passion for their work and it shows. That may not mean much to you but for me it matters much.

Yes, I could ride a bike from Walmart or even a trek 520 made in China, they both will do the job, will I enjoy the ride more, doubtfully. I've own various bikes for touring, modified mountain bikes, a Long Haul Trucker, and others, do they ride the same as my custom bikes, no.

I've ridden many types of bikes made from many types of materials, steel, carbon fiber, titanium and aluminum, each has a unique quality of ride. In each metal there are many variations in how the tubes are drawn and the alloy used. There is a big difference from a straight gauge 4130 cromo frame and one using 4130 cromo tubing that is butted and drawn for maximum effectiveness. When you add a craftsman with the knowledge of using other alloys in conjunction the result is often a bike that becomes more than a bike that will do the job, it becomes an bike that will do the job and make that ride quite more enjoyable.

As you said, I chose to pay more for my custom bikes, that's my choice and I will not say you can't tour on anything but a well fitted bike. I enjoy cycling, it's my passion, I enjoy riding a finely crafted machine that has been fitted to me and my desires. I enjoy knowing the builder, the tubing, selecting the components, building up the frame does that make me a purist, no. I make these choices because I appreciate a finely made tool, I know and can feel the difference.

Tourist in MSN

I have never ridden an Americano and probably never will. But, a couple years ago I went on a group bike tour and one guy owned an Americano. I asked why he had huge rear panniers and no front rack. He said his bike frame was so solid that it did not matter if he distributed the weight better with front panniers or if he put all the weight on the rear wheel like he did. For shipping (it had S&S couplers), he chose to leave the front rack and front panniers home so it would be easier to transport and reassemble the bike. One day I rode behind him for a while, his rear wheel was a tandem wheel with 145mm spacing, undished, looked very impressive and very solidly built. Bottom line, that was a very different bike than a 520, LHT or any of the other "touring bikes" we had there.

tom cotter

And, unfortunately, the Americano rider gave you his opinion, not fact:

The reason for using front and rear racks is for better handling. Weight distribution plays into fatigue as well as safety in certain situations. rack combo loading is personal preference. Any bike can be customized to the owner's preference.

S&S couplers are not made nor warranted by Co- motion and can be added to any bike.

The rear wheel is not manufactured by Co-motion and can be added to any bike. You asked about advantages of high end bikes.

High end bikes refers to the frame only or in some cases the frame and the fork. Everything else on the bike is made and warranted by other manufacturers. The wheel you saw was a custom add on not standard equipment.

If you are going to compare, for your own good, do it apples to apples.

I'm not saying CO-Motion or other builder bikes are not good. They are good. But they come at a steep price. The value is perceived because in reality of use, these bikes bring no more to the table than the standard bike. Their cost is driven by business math, not by higher quality.

Lastly, you have to be careful on the perceived value evaluation. IE it feels sooo much better than the less expensive bike. I own an expensive sport touring/racing bike. It's everything you want in such a bike. Lightwieght and quick handling - a joy to ride. That is until winter rolls around and i don't want to be changing flats in 20 degree weather. So I put a set of gatorskins on it for a couple months. The bike becomes a pig! My point - before you lay out $4000- or $5000 for a bike that you perceive as better, make sure the part you are paying for is what's making it better.

tacreamer

Tom, fact check: Co-Motion Cycles | americano The Americano comes standard with a 145mm dish less wheel as Tourist stated above. This feature is unique and adds stability for carring a larger load. Anyway the owner of that particular fact was judging from the perspective of own and riding one, I will certainly take his word over your "opinion". That wheel cannot simply be added to your Trek 520 without risks and misalignement what ever your opinion is about that!

I don't doubt that your "perception" and value judgement is very real for you concerning your 520, enough said, I'll agree that is the case for you! Now go out and ride that bike that makes you feel so good :-)

tom cotter

For a non purist you sure made the purist's argument.

We are not going to agree. I carefully researched custom frame makers and concluded the value is not there. The higher price is driven more by business math, than quality differences. You, OTOH, get joy from riding one type of steel alloy over another. So be it! Let others read our words and decide for themselves.

tom cotter

I'll stand corrected on the wheel. Why are you so snarky?

I guess i should have checked before I posted. That wheel wasn't offered when i shopped Comotion 12 years ago.

That said, two points: The 520 has been rigorously tested on these forums with few complaints! There is no arguing with the quality or design of the bike.

Second, that wheel or one of similar strength could be added to just about any bike. However, there is nothing wrong with Trek's standard wheel. I weigh in at over 200 pounds. I go fully loaded with Panniers or trailer or sometimes both! ten years and no wheel problems! No flex problems, no stability problems etc etc etc!

I value utility over form. When it came to buying light weight racing bikes i've made the decision that the value was there, owning both Litespeed and lemond bikes over the years. I see the value of the frame materials and build quality in these bikes. The high end componentry on these bikes is worth every dime! So forking over my hard earned dough, not a problem! But for custom tourers, not so much. Where the price is dictated by the economics of the builder, not by the quality of their work.

lastly, i still tour on a 26 year old 520. You got a 26 year old comotion? If not, when you do let us know. ( see i can be snarky too!)

tacreamer

I believe that we have a different understanding of a "purist" as you will want to label me. My definition of a purist is someone who has made up their mind and will refuse any plausible alternatives. I gladly entertain different viewpoints and technically advancements, I'm not stuck using the same metric in defining something different!

As you said, you concluded that the value of having a high-end touring bicycle was not there for "you", in this we agree. For me, I will rather look at the bigger picture in that I don't need to buy and support a business model that ships resources and talent to another country to save a few dollars. I rather do without and wait to support a different business model that has a greater value for me and the local economy that I live in. I don't need to buy another piece of mass produced Chinese products to fill that spot in my garage, that is of greater value to "me"!

Tourist in MSN

Tom, you have your opinions and I have mine. I am glad you like your 520s. I am sure that those that have bought high end bikes like their bikes too. And I am quite happy with some of my bikes.

tom cotter

Of course they like them! They are great bikes. Butttt, then again BMW 3 series owners love their cars. That is until they put them to the test and find out they can't keep up with the much less expensive, yet equally well built Subaru WRX. What's up with that? What's up with that is the "Ultimate Driving Machine" is a perception that doesn't play out in reality. Which would be handy to know before you spend $10-15K more for something you aren't getting.

intransit1217

Boy, don't I know how to start a fire !

But thank you to all who chimed in, here.

NeilGunton

Co-Motion hand-builds their own wheels in-house. I have been to their factory in Eugene and observed the process for myself prior to purchasing my Americano back in 2009.

https://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/co-motion-visit

While it is true that a similar spec wheel could be built by anyone, it's not true that it could be added to any bike. The Americano utilizes a 145mm "tandem" rear end in order to accommodate the non-dished wheel. Most non-tandem bikes are not wide enough in the dropouts to take such a wheel. This "tandem" heritage is one of the things that makes the Americano (and Divide, their 29er version) special in the world of touring bikes. Co-Motion started off making tandems, then one day they decided to see what would happen if they made a single tandem, i.e. a touring bike built like a tandem, but for a single rider. The result was the Americano.

It's worth noting here that although bikes may look similar (they are all bike shaped), there can be substantial differences in terms of strength and performance. For example, the tandem chainstays used on the Americano give it a lot more stiffness in the rear end than regular touring bikes. In fact they use "oversized" tandem tubing throughout the Americano frameset. It's a really rock solid ride, for those who want or need that.

Yes, it's true that many people might be able to get by on a Trek 520 or similar "regular" bike, but to pretend that this means the Co-Motion holds no advantages over the Trek would be a bad assumption. There are all sorts of little details that make a Co-Motion special. It is way more expensive because they are hand-built by American workers being paid American wages in America.

The other special thing about Co-Motion, as opposed to Trek or Surly, is that you get a bike that is custom fit to your body. I had a devil of a time finding a touring bike that fit me and wouldn't shimmy as soon as I loaded it up. The Surly LHT was too long in the top tube for me; by the time I got a size that fit, I had to put such a short stem on there that it affected the handling. When Dwan Shepard did my fit session, he watched me riding a test bike and soon figured out that I would benefit from the top tube being a bit shorter than usual. The result was a bike that fit my body, for the first time in my life. Now, many people might be more "average" in terms of body proportions than me; those people might be lucky that they can get away with a regular Surly or whatever. But that's not to say that there aren't advantages to getting a custom fit.

Also, when I built my Americano, I was able to spec some non-standard stuff, such as a custom kickstand plate just in front of the rear dropouts, which enabled me to use my favorite kickstand (Greenfield Stabilizer), which I otherwise wouldn't have been able to do with disc brakes. I also had them do some other stuff like moving the bottle cage mounts up a bit so I could put larger bottles on the bike; and later on, when I traded up to their Divide model (same as the Americano, but with clearance for 29er wheels and tires), I have them add a couple more mount points on the forks, for using a high-platform rack and mounting fenders without having to bend the stays around the disc brake housing. There are lots of little things that you can specify when they are building a bike for you.

The 145mm non-dished rear wheel has been standard on the Americano since at least 1998, when they started making that model. They also had it prior to 1998, on un-named custom bikes.

I disagree that it's all just "perceived" added value, rather than being anything functional that you are getting for the extra money. The Americano was the first bike I could ride up out of the saddle on a hill, with a full load in the panniers, without the bike wobbling and flexing. I'd say the Americano is one of the (if not the) strongest touring bikes in the world. As I mentioned above, there are multiple functional advantages you get in a Co-Motion frame (the oversized tubing, custom fit, customizability of braze-ons, quality of welding and brazing etc). The cost is driven by higher quality, for sure, as well as what it costs to actually make the thing (of course - building anything in America costs more than it does to do the same thing in Asia). Also, Co-Motion uses top-notch components in their bikes - for example, all the bearings (wheel, bottom bracket, headset) are sealed cartridge. Going through a river crossing won't mean you have to re-pack your wheel bearings. The whole component setup is high-end, though obviously you can change whatever you want to suit.

Again, the 145mm non-dished tandem rear wheel has been standard equipment on the Americano since its inception, circa 1998. If you were shopping at Co-Motion for a touring bike 10 or 12 years ago, then you would have seen the Americano, and it would have had that wheel. I actually just spoke to Dwan Shepard today and confirmed this in passing.

That's true. And it's also true that the Co-Motion bikes are truly better bikes than any Trek or Surly. They just are. Now, whether you NEED such a bike, that's another matter. If a Trek or a Surly works for you, then obviously you don't need to shell out the extra money for a Co-Motion. But there's really no need to proceed to denigrate Co-Motion by trying to create the impression that it's just nothing special. Ride what you like, be happy with it, that's great. Don't go slamming other brands, though, just because you're happy with something else.

Neil