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Equipment Decisions

Old 04-07-15, 03:47 AM
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Equipment Decisions

Hello All
I've got my first 'proper' competition in May and I'm considering getting some new equipment for it. I'm thinking of getting a skinsuit, a 3/4/5 spoke and disc. I'm not sure where to go for the Skinsuit, any recommendations?, but I've seen a few wheel combos that I quite like the look of and I was hoping you might pass judgement on them.

FFWD disc and 5
Corima Disc and 4
Navigator Disc and 5
All tubular

Given I do not have massive reserves of cash I was thinking of going for the navigator set as they are a bit cheaper but I might go for a more expensive set if I feel like I can cope with being thrifty for a while after as I have never heard of navigators until recently but they are being sold by Dolan bikes and I've seen a few pictures of high end guys using them. I'm looking at this as a long term investment as well as I am going to be trying to compete more often in the future. I am in the UK and my main disciplines are the sprint/kilo/keirin. I also currently have a pair of 82mm deep carbon tubs. Any comments/criticisms welcome! Thanks!

Last edited by Banchad; 04-07-15 at 03:51 AM.
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Old 04-07-15, 05:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Banchad View Post
Hello All
I've got my first 'proper' competition in May and I'm considering getting some new equipment for it. I'm thinking of getting a skinsuit, a 3/4/5 spoke and disc. I'm not sure where to go for the Skinsuit, any recommendations?, but I've seen a few wheel combos that I quite like the look of and I was hoping you might pass judgement on them.

FFWD disc and 5
Corima Disc and 4
Navigator Disc and 5
All tubular

Given I do not have massive reserves of cash I was thinking of going for the navigator set as they are a bit cheaper but I might go for a more expensive set if I feel like I can cope with being thrifty for a while after as I have never heard of navigators until recently but they are being sold by Dolan bikes and I've seen a few pictures of high end guys using them. I'm looking at this as a long term investment as well as I am going to be trying to compete more often in the future. I am in the UK and my main disciplines are the sprint/kilo/keirin. I also currently have a pair of 82mm deep carbon tubs. Any comments/criticisms welcome! Thanks!
Hi and welcome to the sport.

Random thoughts:

Get a skinsuit. It's the best bang for the buck in terms of aero. Here are 2 from Castelli:
BODY PAINT 3.0 SPEED SUIT LS | SpeedSuits | Tops | Men | Products | Castelli ? An Unfair Advantage
SANREMO 3.0 SPEED SUIT | SpeedSuits | Tops | Men | Products | Castelli ? An Unfair Advantage

You don't "need" a skinsuit. You can also use basic bibs and a compression top like this:
Nike Pro Combat Core Compression Men's Shirt. Nike Store


These are also MUCH easier to get in and out of when it's time to go to the bathroom

Also get some latex aero booties (only legal in outdoor racing, but some may not object indoors. just ask).

I have a Navigator 5 spoke front and I like it. It's slightly heavier than the Mavic Io but it's 1/6 the cost Not sure how it tests in a wind tunnel. But, it feels good.

You can use your road front wheel. Just get a "track skewer" and replace the quick release.
Example: Zipp - Speed Weaponry | Accessories | Components | Track Front Skewer

Honestly, since you are just getting started, wheels won't make that big of a difference. I'd say use a solid rear wheel that can hold up to your strength (32 spoke is fine) and use/borrow an aero front. It's been proven that the rear disc delivers the least aero benefit of all aero gear (skinsuit, helmet, booties, front wheel, frame, etc...)


So, if you already have an aero front wheel and you buy a compression top you'll be set for less < 20 Pounds Sterling ($25)...seriously.
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Old 04-07-15, 07:04 AM
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
You can use your road front wheel. Just get a "track skewer" and replace the quick release.
Example: Zipp - Speed Weaponry | Accessories | Components | Track Front Skewer
I knew they existed, but didn't try too hard to find one. AND, can't get this one either - they won't ship outside US from that link.
Gotta find this elsewhere now.
Thanks for the info, will be very useful.
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Old 04-07-15, 07:06 AM
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Hi Carleton. Thanks for the reply. I'm not actually that new to track cycling and I've been having sort of unofficial races against the other guys who go to the velodrome I've been going to. I'm consistently getting over 55km/h on my sprints and frankly I've been looking for an excuse to get a disc and 5 (Also I'm a bit of an aesthetic obsessed man-child and the disc and 5 is just so pretty ). Would it really be that pointless to get a set or should I just focus on getting stronger before I get them?
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Old 04-07-15, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by myth001 View Post
I knew they existed, but didn't try too hard to find one. AND, can't get this one either - they won't ship outside US from that link.
Gotta find this elsewhere now.
Thanks for the info, will be very useful.
Plenty of places you will be able to find this (other brands work just as well too) that will ship internationally. I bought my last Zipp made one from ebay seller trialthis who shipped from the US to Aus.
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Old 04-07-15, 07:32 AM
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Minimal to zero gains going from your 82mm tubs to wheel combinations above. Tyres and good glue job matters more.

Timetrialling Forum is local to you and reasonably often has second hand track disc wheels for sale if you still want a disc rear. For cheap skins suits, the guys in that forum recommend a UK ebay seller - graceo_titanium_bolts

Good shoe covers are faster but as the UK are similar to Australia following UCI rules to the letter they aren't allowed indoors.
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Old 04-07-15, 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Dalai View Post
Good shoe covers are faster but as the UK are similar to Australia following UCI rules to the letter they aren't allowed indoors.
It's not governed by the UCI. It's an InterUniversity competition.
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Old 04-07-15, 07:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Banchad View Post
It's not governed by the UCI. It's an InterUniversity competition.
Do you need a British Cycling licence to race it? If so you will be riding under UCI rules...
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Old 04-07-15, 07:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Dalai View Post
Do you need a British Cycling licence to race it? If so you will be riding under UCI rules...
Nope. No license required. Not sure how that works myself but thats what it says.
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Old 04-07-15, 08:01 AM
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Really? Interesting... Do you have a link to the event?
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Old 04-07-15, 08:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Dalai View Post
Really? Interesting... Do you have a link to the event?
Track - British Universities & Colleges Sport
Unless I've managed to miss a statement of requiring a license its just sign up and arrive. It's only for current university students though.
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Old 04-07-15, 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Dalai View Post
Minimal to zero gains going from your 82mm tubs to wheel combinations above. Tyres and good glue job matters more.
+1

Banchad, I doubt that you'd see any differences in times using any of the aero wheels mentioned above, including your 82mm front.

Wheels are very noticable, but once you cross a certain threshold (i.e something like a Zipp 404 front), the gains are very minimal. Any gains or losses would be mixed in with all the other variables that contributed to your TT times (position, fitness, experience, line, other aero equipment, fatigue, hydration, temperature, etc...).

Trust me. You can't just put on a Mavic Io/Comete set and do a 10" flying 200. They aren't that fast.

If you average 55kph for a flying 200M that's 13.1". If you are a 13" flying 200 guy on 32 spoke wheels, then you'll be around 12.8"-ish on any set of aero wheels, all things being equal.
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Old 04-07-15, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
+1
Trust me. You can't just put on a Mavic Io/Comete set and do a 10" flying 200. They aren't that fast.
Oh I understand that you cant just chuck on 'fast' wheels and expect to miraculously get way faster. It's all about the rider. I'm just getting hung up the 'look'. It's something I'm working on keeping under control (sometimes less than successfully). Thanks for the advice!
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Old 04-07-15, 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by myth001 View Post
I knew they existed, but didn't try too hard to find one. AND, can't get this one either - they won't ship outside US from that link.
Gotta find this elsewhere now.
Thanks for the info, will be very useful.
ebay. Maybe urbane cyclist in TO. or your LBS can order. Or ebay.
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Old 04-08-15, 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Dalai View Post
Plenty of places you will be able to find this (other brands work just as well too) that will ship internationally. I bought my last Zipp made one from ebay seller trialthis who shipped from the US to Aus.
Originally Posted by gtrob View Post
ebay. Maybe urbane cyclist in TO. or your LBS can order. Or ebay.
Thanks Dalai and Gtrob, I went to my LBS and picked up a no-name brand skewer, and it works great with my Campy Bullet front wheel. It feels awesome now. I'll ride it tonight and see the comparative difference form the stock front that came with my bike.

I wish the rear was also as easy to manage (The set I got has a skewer for rear also, but it seems short to me for my 11-speed wheel).
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Old 04-08-15, 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Dalai View Post
Tyres and good glue job matters more.
Got any suggestions? I've got a pair of conti sprinter gator tubs on my wheels right now and I know they're not the greatest for the track.
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Old 04-08-15, 04:45 PM
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Sprinters aren't bad at all. Not outstanding, but common enough. Can't go wrong. They're like the Honda Civic of tubulars.
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Old 04-08-15, 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by taras0000 View Post
Sprinters aren't bad at all. Not outstanding, but common enough. Can't go wrong. They're like the Honda Civic of tubulars.
Hahaha yup!

Every time I've used Conti Sprinters, the tire outlasted the glue job.
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Old 04-09-15, 12:52 AM
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Originally Posted by taras0000 View Post
Sprinters aren't bad at all. Not outstanding, but common enough. Can't go wrong. They're like the Honda Civic of tubulars.
Really? I'll have to have a word with my friend who is adamant that they're not very good and keeps badgering me to swap them to Vittorias. Ah well. Looks like all the easy excuses for being slower than I want aren't going to wash. Better get my ass in the gym then.
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Old 04-09-15, 06:14 AM
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As you are racing indoors on wood at Manchester (like your mate I am a Vittoria fan) I'd say the Evo Pistas. Outdoors on concrete I use their road tyre - Corsa Evo CX's.

Which ever tyre, be liberal with the glue to reduce rolling resistance and rolling a tyre...
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Old 04-09-15, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Dalai View Post
As you are racing indoors on wood at Manchester (like your mate I am a Vittoria fan) I'd say the Evo Pistas. Outdoors on concrete I use their road tyre - Corsa Evo CX's.

Which ever tyre, be liberal with the glue to reduce rolling resistance and rolling a tyre...
As I'm going to pretty much only using the bike on an outdoor velodrome(tarmac) after the comp are Wiggle | Vittoria Corsa CX III Tubular Road Tyre | Road Race Tubular Tyres these the ones you were talking about?
I've already glued my tyres on myself. I bloody hated how tight the contis were to get on.
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Old 04-09-15, 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Banchad View Post
Really? I'll have to have a word with my friend who is adamant that they're not very good and keeps badgering me to swap them to Vittorias. Ah well. Looks like all the easy excuses for being slower than I want aren't going to wash. Better get my ass in the gym then.
Sprinters are a perfectly fine. They are the meat and potatoes of decent tubs. They are consistent, reliable, won't hold you back. Many riders like Vittorias, and have formed an attachment to them, they aren't for me though. If you're not going to be racing seriously, but for fun, then the Sprinters are a great tub. I used them on my everyday wheels for many years. I wouldn't worry about trying to swap them out.

Vittorias are nice, but tend to run on the delicate side and that's why I don't like them. Never like Vittoria on the road as I was always getting flats and after two months one a new tub, one of the sidewalls got sliced open. That sealed their fate with me. I did have a set of Evo Pistas, but switched them to a set of Sonderklasse when they wore out.

Also like Tufo as well. Great value, and no complaints in their performance. If you already have decent equipment, then run what ya brung.
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Old 04-10-15, 01:07 AM
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
Hahaha yup!

Every time I've used Conti Sprinters, the tire outlasted the glue job.
How do you know when the tub is worn out? I've started losing the tread pattern on mine.
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Old 04-10-15, 03:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Banchad View Post
How do you know when the tub is worn out? I've started losing the tread pattern on mine.
There are several things that can happen:
- The thread can wear out. "Race" tires usually have very thin thread to reduce weight. They are expected to be used in controlled environments like indoor tracks that are swept properly.

- There is a cloth base tape between the tube and the rim. The glue is applied between this base tape and the rim. So there are actually 2 bonds: Rim to Base Tape and Base Tape to Tubular. Sometimes the tubular will begin to separate from the Base Tape like so:



Here are some more things to look for: Park Tool Co. ParkTool Blog Tubular Tire Gluing
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Old 02-22-16, 11:46 AM
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Ok, this is a stale forum, but this seemed like the best place to pose the question: Last year I ran Conti Sprinters on an 808 and Zipp Disc glued liberally with Conti Carbon rim cement. For this year's ritual "re-shodding of the wheels" I got the new shoes and out of LBS convenience, got Tubasti cement, maybe without thinking it through. Any thoughts on Tubasti in track environments? Carbon rim suitability? Thanks in advance.
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