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Flying 200s

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Old 11-05-17, 07:02 PM
  #76  
southernfox
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All it has ever told me is that I should be a track sprinter I'm great out to 30s, but then I start sucking.
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Old 11-05-17, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by rickbuddy_72 View Post
This is interesting. I just returned after 35 years on the couch.

I'm thinking that perhaps one's approach to the F200 should complement the individual's power and fatigue profile? I'm one of these take-your-notebook to practice folks. And, pretty geeked up about the modern technology. At my first TT this year the final 200M split on my 500M was much faster than any of my flying 200s. I get home from the track and out on my deserted training flats and see the same thing. I practice flying 400s and I'm still accelerating in them at 300M.

Sure, my base strength is very weak, but that is my profile, this "ability" (aka, lack of ability to do anything else any better) to maintain acceleration for a while. So I figure start earlier and my times dropped.

I did find this chart/calculator, and after putting in my numbers, it seemed to explain some things.

Peaks Coaching Group: Bicycling Coaching and Power Training for Cycling and Triathlon

Back in the dream time I felt best in 20- to 40-second range. It appears that after 35 years off, and only a few months of training that profile is still hard wired. So that is what I'm thinking. Figure out where your sweet spot is and do that.
It's definitely personal. It's not uncommon for people to do standing efforts (standing lap, 500M, Kilo) and have as good or better splits than with a flying 200M. I've done it myself. I think this points to a terminal velocity more than anything, but I don't have the math to back it up.

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Old 11-06-17, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by southernfox View Post
All it has ever told me is that I should be a track sprinter I'm great out to 30s, but then I start sucking.
That means you've probably got a really good 500! The last ten seconds or so of that is hanging on for dear life.
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Old 11-06-17, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by sarals View Post
That means you've probably got a really good 500! The last ten seconds or so of that is hanging on for dear life.
Getting there. Expecting a 38 next time out. Has to be <35.5 by Sept.
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Old 11-06-17, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by southernfox View Post
Getting there. Expecting a 38 next time out. Has to be <35.5 by Sept.
Thank heavens you're not in my age group! I know you can do it! I know who your target is.

I'm looking to go low 43's, maybe 42 by July. I'll be working hard to do it.
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Old 03-13-18, 04:07 AM
  #81  
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I'm just getting into sprinting and have done 2 sets of efforts.

On the first set, I was using a 106" gear (on the advice of a friend) which was way too high. By the time I was going for the actual effort, my legs were popped. Added to that, my line was all off. Appreciated that a F200 is much more of a technical event than first thought. Fastest time on this session was 14.997

Second session, I had a teammate show me the proper lines and give me a couple of tips. Dropped my gearing to 99.7 and it made such a difference. Fastest time was 13.548 (and second fastest was 13.549!) so ~1.5 secs quicker. Did also try a 91" but that was a bit slower (wind up was easier, but just couldn't hit that top end)

Next goal is under 12. I have some Deda Pista bars on order, which will replace the bog standard road style bars, and some toe straps
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Old 03-13-18, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by MrMinty View Post
I'm just getting into sprinting and have done 2 sets of efforts.

On the first set, I was using a 106" gear (on the advice of a friend) which was way too high. By the time I was going for the actual effort, my legs were popped. Added to that, my line was all off. Appreciated that a F200 is much more of a technical event than first thought. Fastest time on this session was 14.997

Second session, I had a teammate show me the proper lines and give me a couple of tips. Dropped my gearing to 99.7 and it made such a difference. Fastest time was 13.548 (and second fastest was 13.549!) so ~1.5 secs quicker. Did also try a 91" but that was a bit slower (wind up was easier, but just couldn't hit that top end)

Next goal is under 12. I have some Deda Pista bars on order, which will replace the bog standard road style bars, and some toe straps
You can probably do a 12.7 on a 94" gear...today.

There are a lot of factors involved in a Flying 200, as you have noted and read.

One overlooked thing is how to practice Flying 200s.

"Duh...just do Flying 200s, idiot." hahaha no.

That's like trying to get better at The Kilo (tm) by doing Kilos all day. 1) You can only do so many. 2) After the 1st (or 2nd, if you are fit), any kilo after that is junk.

You should understand how Flying 100s relate to Flying 200s. Your top speed and split time for a flying 100 is directly related to your top speed and total time for a flying 200...and the 100 costs maybe 2/3 what the 200 costs you.

So, if you practice flying 100s and take note of top speed (using a $25 computer) and split times, then you can judge your progress and do more efforts in a training session to determine what is working and what is not


Note: Top speed isn't the end-all be-all metric. Your average speed is. Meaning, your split time. But, it's often difficult for regular Joe athletes to have someone time all of their efforts. So, noting and logging top speed is an easy and effective way to track progress.

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Old 03-13-18, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by MrMinty View Post
...I have some Deda Pista bars on order, which will replace the bog standard road style bars, and some toe straps
Why Deda Pista?

I think they only come in 40cm wide. Until you establish a preference, why not go with more common 33-37cm bars? Basically, until you establish a preference, mimic your peers who are faster than you.
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Old 03-13-18, 11:43 AM
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Thanks for the advice Carleton.

Like I said, I'm just starting out, so still experimenting either gears etc.

I have a couple of clinics and am a specific track sprint team (blackline) which is really good

Fortunately my local track (Manchester UK) has a mylaps timings, so a chip on bike records splits at 50/150/250m

Quick question- do you do 100m efforts from 0-100m or 150-200m?
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Old 03-13-18, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by MrMinty View Post
Thanks for the advice Carleton.

Like I said, I'm just starting out, so still experimenting either gears etc.

I have a couple of clinics and am a specific track sprint team (blackline) which is really good

Fortunately my local track (Manchester UK) has a mylaps timings, so a chip on bike records splits at 50/150/250m

Quick question- do you do 100m efforts from 0-100m or 150-200m?
I would suggest starting out with gears progressing from the bottom up as opposed to top down. As others have noted, you can't just hop on to big gears and perform your best.

Flying 100s are measured and timed from the 0-100M of the Flying 200M. The whole purpose of the flying 100 is to see how you are doing but save energy on the backside of the effort. This is because, through the years, coaches have noticed that the 2nd half of the effort was around the same time as the 1st half plus about 0.1s. So, you get the same info with half of the data points. It's not 1/2 the physical effort though because you still have to wind up during a F100 like you do a F200. That takes a lot of energy.

You don't have to use MyLaps. That's for timing...laps

Take note of the Flying 200M start line and there should be a 100M tick painted on the track for the 100M point. Do your efforts and "shut off the gas" at that tick. Roll off the track then write down your top speed, gearing, and any notes you have.

The Flying 200M started as a "fitness test" to sort out the seeding order for a tournament and has matured into its own event. A lot of people still go into it with a fitness test sort of approach and just do whatever without practice. It should be practiced the way a basketball player practices free throws.
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Old 03-13-18, 11:58 AM
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Put another way, as much as basketball players practice free throws, if seeding for the 68-slot NCAA Tournament* were based on a "Free Throw Competition", there would be a HELLUVA lot of focus put on training for free throws.


*For non-US folks, this is the big annual tournament of 64 teams for the National Championship. It's on par with the professional world championship.
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Old 03-13-18, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
Why Deda Pista?

I think they only come in 40cm wide. Until you establish a preference, why not go with more common 33-37cm bars? Basically, until you establish a preference, mimic your peers who are faster than you.
Can't afford any carbon bars. Any recommendations for aluminium/allot narrow bars 31.8mm clamp?
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Old 03-13-18, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by MrMinty View Post
Can't afford any carbon bars. Any recommendations for aluminium/allot narrow bars 31.8mm clamp?
Nitto B123 or B125. They can be had for less than $100. Buy shims to go from 25.4 to 31.8. But, they do have newer 31.8 options now, called "SSB". The heat treated aluminum ones are as light and as strong as carbon.

I have 34cm now. Here they are on my Snyder before I got the Felt:


They were good enough for this guy before Team GB custom made theirs:



But, when narrow bars first came out and I couldn't get Scattos, I used B125 in 36cm. Same reach and drop as Scatto.
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Old 03-13-18, 12:29 PM
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I think the steel/cro-mo bars are 1lb heavier than typical carbon bars. The aluminum versions weigh about the same.

The heat-treated aluminum models are very, very stiff. The steel are ridiculously stiff. Uncomfortable on bumpy tracks. But, take the $300 you saved and buy comfort elsewhere Not an issue indoors or on smooth tracks.

EDIT: MrMinty, don't worry. At the level you are now, round bars are not holding you back. You just need time-on-task. The major benefit of "track" or "sprint" bars is their shape. Their quick sloping design allow you to do standing starts or out-of the saddle jumps without jamming your forearms into the tops of the bars and bruising them.



You cannot do this with road bars that expect your elbows to be bent:

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Old 03-13-18, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
jamming your forearms into the tops of the bars and bruising them.
"Madison hickeys"
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Old 03-13-18, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by queerpunk View Post
"Madison hickeys"
Ha! Is that a thing? Maybe that explains why some top Madison riders are using sprint bars
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Old 03-13-18, 03:47 PM
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yeah, i mean when you're on relief you're doing these similar, torquey accelerations from in the drops to bring yourself down, toward race speed, to make the exchanges. not exactly a standing start, but similar. riding square bars, i definitely get those bruises from madisons (and sometimes other races, too, but mostly madisons) - you don't feel it when it's happening and then later on you've got black-and-blues.

i doubt people are using scattos to deal with that, i just think that they're popular because they're narrow and aero and stiff and good, and the flat top really isn't bad for a madison throw - as long as you use kind of a hook grip with your fingers forward instead of a thumb wraparound grip.
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Old 03-14-18, 07:38 AM
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post


How is he not breaking traction on that back wheel? His weight looks way forward biased!
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Old 03-14-18, 08:05 AM
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Originally Posted by sarals View Post
How is he not breaking traction on that back wheel? His weight looks way forward biased!
That's exactly what I was thinking. I get really far forward on my starts/kicks and the back wheel jumps all over the place. Guessing that maybe you can get away with it for the first 2-3 pedal strokes and then he probably settles back into a less aggressive position?
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Old 03-14-18, 09:34 AM
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As his foot goes over TDC, he will shove his hips backwards over the bottom bracket. Ryan Bayley referred to the move as "like a monkey humping a tennis ball.
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Old 03-14-18, 07:09 PM
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I wondered how I got those bruises on my forearms when I had to practice standing starts using my road bike the other day. I have a fixie set up for the road when I can't get to the track, but that day I decided to work in my starts on a bike ride with my wife. I did not feel the contact during the ride, but the next day I saw the bruises and couldn't remember doing anything that would cause them. I postulated what the cause was, and you guys just confirmed it!
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