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Flying 200s

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Old 11-16-16, 03:49 PM
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Carlosss
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Flying 200s

Hi guys, I am looking for advice to get the best flying 200 I can at my first competition this coming weekend.

I've been testing different gears ranging from 88" to 106" and recording speed and cadence hoping to get an easy answer but I haven't been able to test all the stuff I wanted in time so it turns out I don't really know which gear to bring up for the qualifying 200!

I'm still a beginner in this game, only been training for sprinting a few months, but here are a few numbers so you can gauge my level. My current PB is somewhere around the low 12s I believe--got 12.51 at few weeks ago with a small 92" gear but have since improved my speed measurements with bigger gears. My fastest top speed so far has been 60.7 km/h, just the other day with 106" (51/13), max cadence was about 123 RPM.

QUESTIONS:

1) What is typically the optimal max and average cadence? From what I've read/seen online, it seems that cadence should be around 130-140 RPM to maximise power?

2) What is the typical cadence for the final jump to maximise acceleration and speed? And like should I go all out from corner 4, accelerate as hard as I can, or accelerate like 90% and then go 100% down the banking of corner 1?

3) What's the ideal 1.5 lap buildup? From my own records, I seem to have a very spiky buildup, basically gaining speed on the straights but getting big hits around the corners, all that while leaving every corner faster than the previous. In my case, I typically accelerate hard from around 35-40 km/h, 40 km/h usually leading to higher top speeds. Is 40 km/h too fast/too slow for a peak speed of 60 km/h?

Here is a graph of a typical build up and flying 200. Is there anything I am doing clearly wrong?



Thank you
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Old 11-16-16, 08:44 PM
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Current thinking seems to put optimal cadence in the 120-130rpm region. Aiming for 140 is too high. Based on what you've written, you should at least be doing your F200 in 51/13. Unless this competition is critical, then I would actually go 52 or 53/13. You are going faster on bigger gears and showing good adaptation. A couple of weeks ago, I personally ran 12.06 in 51/12. Not too bad, not too good, but when you consider I'm at 130kg and a sail at 6'5" and no disc, it's pretty damn good. The beauty about bigger gears is that the tapering off of speed is much less at the end of your run.

For the run in, I have a friend who has played around with this a bit, and he has very little difference in F200 times by jumping in T3, or even waiting until coming out of T4, so I don't think that is as critical as some might think. As far as speeds go, guys that do low 11s are looking at the final run down the back straight to be at 45-50kph. Whatever you do, power up the banking into T3 to reduce that drop off in speed while in the saddle and get on the gas somewhere in T3-T4. The correct line is really track dependent so watch what your really fast guys do.

For the windup, the common school of thought is a slow path to the fence in the last lap before the fly. My mate has been fooling around with this and has been going straight to the fence from the start. I've tried this and it works well for me too. The slow windup means you're constantly on the gas. For me, straight to the fence means you get a little recovery running down the banking onto the straights. I'm fit enough to recover very quickly, so I think that is why it works well for me. Whichever way you look at it, studies show that the fastest people are the ones who use the least amount of energy in the windup. It's just something you have to work out for yourself.
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Old 11-16-16, 10:19 PM
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I am looking for advice to get the best flying 200 I can at my first competition this coming weekend.
Best Advice: Think of this as a "training race" and not a "real race".

In the course of a season you will have:

- Training
- Training Races
- Races

Training: Normal weekly training on the bike where you practice events with or without a stopwatch.

Training Races: These are weekly organized local races against others at your track. The only thing at stake are points (that don't mean much) and bragging rights.

Races: These are your State, Regional, and National Championship type events or any similarly big events. They are usually 1-5 per season depending on how active your track is or if you choose to travel to big events.




So, relax.

Also, one key to improving your flying 200 is to practice it and log the results of each effort (like you seem to be doing). Do so often with race wheels and helmet as you would in competition.

Learn the best line for the flying 200 for your track. You can do this by following directly behind others that are better than you. Ask first.

Take a stopwatch or the stopwatch app in your smart phone and see how quickly 0.10s goes by. Now you will see why everything is important in the flying 200M.

Finally, understand that the flying 200 is only a key to get into the sprint tournament. If you don't learn how to match sprint, you will be frustrated. Don't spend all of your time focusing on the flying 200. Many great sprinters were never the best qualfiers. Some qualify in the middle of the pack and win their way to 1st place. This is especially true at the local levels where skill and prowess can be very different among competitors.

All of this takes a lot of time in the saddle.
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Old 11-17-16, 03:10 AM
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
Best Advice: Think of this as a "training race" and not a "real race".

...

So, relax.

...

Finally, understand that the flying 200 is only a key to get into the sprint tournament. If you don't learn how to match sprint, you will be frustrated. Don't spend all of your time focusing on the flying 200. Many great sprinters were never the best qualfiers. Some qualify in the middle of the pack and win their way to 1st place. This is especially true at the local levels where skill and prowess can be very different among competitors.

All of this takes a lot of time in the saddle.
I know I am probably overthinking it, but the problem is there are 39 riders trying to qualify for the top 12 spots that go on for the match sprint rounds, and I know there will be plenty of 11s and even a couple of 10s in there. I wanna get in that top 12 to get race experience 1on1 sprinting. If I don't, my competition will be done after the flying 200 So if I can do anything to save a 0.1-0.2 of a second, I will do it. Realistically though the chances of going through are very slim...

I have had the chance to follow faster more experienced rider every now and then and that did help a lot to learn the proper line--at least in my local 250m wooden indoor velodrome (Derby). I will be racing in Manchester though.

Originally Posted by brawlo;
Current thinking seems to put optimal cadence in the 120-130rpm region. Aiming for 140 is too high. Based on what you've written, you should at least be doing your F200 in 51/13. Unless this competition is critical, then I would actually go 52 or 53/13. You are going faster on bigger gears and showing good adaptation. A couple of weeks ago, I personally ran 12.06 in 51/12. Not too bad, not too good, but when you consider I'm at 130kg and a sail at 6'5" and no disc, it's pretty damn good. The beauty about bigger gears is that the tapering off of speed is much less at the end of your run.

For the run in, I have a friend who has played around with this a bit, and he has very little difference in F200 times by jumping in T3, or even waiting until coming out of T4, so I don't think that is as critical as some might think. As far as speeds go, guys that do low 11s are looking at the final run down the back straight to be at 45-50kph. Whatever you do, power up the banking into T3 to reduce that drop off in speed while in the saddle and get on the gas somewhere in T3-T4. The correct line is really track dependent so watch what your really fast guys do.

For the windup, the common school of thought is a slow path to the fence in the last lap before the fly. My mate has been fooling around with this and has been going straight to the fence from the start. I've tried this and it works well for me too. The slow windup means you're constantly on the gas. For me, straight to the fence means you get a little recovery running down the banking onto the straights. I'm fit enough to recover very quickly, so I think that is why it works well for me. Whichever way you look at it, studies show that the fastest people are the ones who use the least amount of energy in the windup. It's just something you have to work out for yourself.
That was very interesting

I have too noticed that in smaller gears I gas out sooner and by the end of the 200m I struggle more.

Don't know about you guys but personally going high up the bankings around the corners in the windup always seems to tire me out. So I've been doing the slow path to the fence kinda thing, only staying at the fence around the corners for the final lap. I think my only issue is that sometimes I try to save too much energy and get too slow to the final back straight and then I lose about 1 km/h in max speed, specially with bigger gears. At the moment I was contemplating to go for 49/13 (102") but like you said if I make sure to to get to the final back straight a few km/h faster and get of the gas as usual around corner 4, I think 51/13 (106") could work out better. Maybe I could even get up to 125 RPM and get a big PR If I go for 49/13 I would have to get to around 130 RPM for a big PR. Mmmm...
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Old 11-17-16, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Carlosss View Post
Don't know about you guys but personally going high up the bankings around the corners in the windup always seems to tire me out. So I've been doing the slow path to the fence kinda thing, only staying at the fence around the corners for the final lap. I think my only issue is that sometimes I try to save too much energy and get too slow to the final back straight and then I lose about 1 km/h in max speed, specially with bigger gears. At the moment I was contemplating to go for 49/13 (102") but like you said if I make sure to to get to the final back straight a few km/h faster and get of the gas as usual around corner 4, I think 51/13 (106") could work out better. Maybe I could even get up to 125 RPM and get a big PR If I go for 49/13 I would have to get to around 130 RPM for a big PR. Mmmm...
From that, I would say you need some fitness work. Don't underestimate how fit you need to be to be a sprinter. I did for too long, and seeing the importance of it now. As for gear, DON'T GO LOWER! Your top speed is on 51/13. Why would you possibly contemplate going lower? You can't get a high average speed (the crux of a F200) without a high top speed. The only reason to go lower would be if you timed efforts and you went slower on the F200 in 51/13, but I would highly doubt that would happen. Stick with it and trust yourself.

Also try and get splits for your effort, including the leading 50m into the F200. Or at least get someone to video it so you can work those out for yourself
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Old 11-18-16, 02:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Carlosss View Post
I know I am probably overthinking it, but the problem is there are 39 riders trying to qualify for the top 12 spots that go on for the match sprint rounds, and I know there will be plenty of 11s and even a couple of 10s in there. I wanna get in that top 12 to get race experience 1on1 sprinting. If I don't, my competition will be done after the flying 200 So if I can do anything to save a 0.1-0.2 of a second, I will do it. Realistically though the chances of going through are very slim...

I have had the chance to follow faster more experienced rider every now and then and that did help a lot to learn the proper line--at least in my local 250m wooden indoor velodrome (Derby). I will be racing in Manchester though.


That was very interesting

I have too noticed that in smaller gears I gas out sooner and by the end of the 200m I struggle more.


Don't know about you guys but personally going high up the bankings around the corners in the windup always seems to tire me out. So I've been doing the slow path to the fence kinda thing, only staying at the fence around the corners for the final lap. I think my only issue is that sometimes I try to save too much energy and get too slow to the final back straight and then I lose about 1 km/h in max speed, specially with bigger gears. At the moment I was contemplating to go for 49/13 (102") but like you said if I make sure to to get to the final back straight a few km/h faster and get of the gas as usual around corner 4, I think 51/13 (106") could work out better. Maybe I could even get up to 125 RPM and get a big PR If I go for 49/13 I would have to get to around 130 RPM for a big PR. Mmmm...
Are you doing BUCS?


For the future, there are some sprint clinics coming up in Derby over the next few months, why don't you get yourself signed up onto one of them? Black Line Coaching Click on Group Clinics.
Also, the Swinnerton sprint sessions start up again in the new year.
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Old 11-18-16, 02:44 AM
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I know I am probably overthinking it, but the problem is there are 39 riders trying to qualify for the top 12 spots that go on for the match sprint rounds, and I know there will be plenty of 11s and even a couple of 10s in there. I wanna get in that top 12 to get race experience 1on1 sprinting. I
You are overthinking it.

Match sprint training should come some other time, not during an event like the one you are describing. That's like playing a basketball game and hoping to get fouled in order to practice free throws

At DLV in Atlanta, match sprint nights would go like this: Everyone does flying 200s then people are matched with those closest with them in time and they go 2 or 3 rounds with each other. So, it's 1st qualifier vs 2nd qualifier, 3rd vs 4th, 5th vs 6th, etc... That keeps the competition even and challenging...because it's training.

This gives the riders a chance to work on strategies, technique, gears, etc... in a competitive environment. This will then give them confidence to use those in a real event as well as show them what works against them and what they suck at.

Look for some program like that.
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Old 11-18-16, 08:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Carlosss View Post
And like should I go all out from corner 4, accelerate as hard as I can, or accelerate like 90% and then go 100% down the banking of corner 1?
This depends on your track! From your posts it sounds like you're on a 250, but 250s can have a lot of different shapes, and other factors (like wind) can play a role in when you choose to jump. And, of course, your own physiology plays a role. I don't accelerate very fast so I tend to go for a long 100% coming out of turn 4, plus a semi-sharp turn-1 dive to help me eek out the last bit of speed.

From a quick look at your data I wonder if you're jumping from too low a speed. 40kph, even after another gain in altitude, is a bit slow. You can play around with when and where to put power down so that you get more speed for a comparable effort. And, since your top speed drops off at about 10 datapoints, either you're crossing the 200m below your top speed, or you're losing speed on the homestretch.
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Old 11-18-16, 12:57 PM
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From a quick look at your data I wonder if you're jumping from too low a speed. 40kph, even after another gain in altitude, is a bit slow.
My guess is that he's jumping from the top of turns 3-4, after climbing into the top of the turn. Some people wait until falling out of 4 to "turn on the gas" and accelerate past the track start/finish line and hit top speed at the flying 200M start line.

So, the double peaks of speed look right, especially with the top speed being between turns 1-2...where the 200M start line is.

But it also looks like his speedo reads every 1 second. I would love to see this data over every 0.5s. I would also love to see Cadence on the same chart.
@Carlosss, can you export the same chart with both speed and cadence on the same chart? Power, too, if you have it.
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Old 11-18-16, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
My guess is that he's jumping from the top of turns 3-4, after climbing into the top of the turn. Some people wait until falling out of 4 to "turn on the gas" and accelerate past the track start/finish line and hit top speed at the flying 200M start line.

So, the double peaks of speed look right, especially with the top speed being between turns 1-2...where the 200M start line is.

But it also looks like his speedo reads every 1 second. I would love to see this data over every 0.5s. I would also love to see Cadence on the same chart.
@Carlosss, can you export the same chart with both speed and cadence on the same chart? Power, too, if you have it.
That sounds about right, I usually start accelerating after climbing into the top of the turn, I guess somewhere in turn 4. Good to know the double peaks are okay, didn't really know what to expect and wasn't sure whether or not I was just loosing pace where I shouldn't.

I don't have a powermeter unfortunately but here are the plots for speed and cadence, both on same graph and stacked. Note that these were with 49/13 (102"), rather than 51/13, they're from a different flying 200m to the one posted before--the cadence data from that one was faulted for some reason and many data points were missing. In this one the speed before the jump was even a bit lower, as was the top speed.




Last edited by Carlosss; 11-18-16 at 04:25 PM.
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Old 11-18-16, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by brawlo View Post
From that, I would say you need some fitness work. Don't underestimate how fit you need to be to be a sprinter. I did for too long, and seeing the importance of it now. As for gear, DON'T GO LOWER! Your top speed is on 51/13. Why would you possibly contemplate going lower? You can't get a high average speed (the crux of a F200) without a high top speed. The only reason to go lower would be if you timed efforts and you went slower on the F200 in 51/13, but I would highly doubt that would happen. Stick with it and trust yourself.

Also try and get splits for your effort, including the leading 50m into the F200. Or at least get someone to video it so you can work those out for yourself
Mmm that's probably quite true haha not at my fittest cardio-wise at the moment. I will follow your advice, will got for 51/13

Originally Posted by Poppit
Are you doing BUCS?

For the future, there are some sprint clinics coming up in Derby over the next few months, why don't you get yourself signed up onto one of them? Black Line Coaching Click on Group Clinics.
Also, the Swinnerton sprint sessions start up again in the new year.
Yeah that's the one, doing BUCS starting tomorrow morning
I will deffo look at the Black Line coaching clinics! I have been to a couple of Swinnerton sprint sessions a few weeks ago, were great, learned quite a bit! Will continue to go next year for sure.

Originally Posted by queerpunk
This depends on your track! From your posts it sounds like you're on a 250, but 250s can have a lot of different shapes, and other factors (like wind) can play a role in when you choose to jump. And, of course, your own physiology plays a role. I don't accelerate very fast so I tend to go for a long 100% coming out of turn 4, plus a semi-sharp turn-1 dive to help me eek out the last bit of speed.

From a quick look at your data I wonder if you're jumping from too low a speed. 40kph, even after another gain in altitude, is a bit slow. You can play around with when and where to put power down so that you get more speed for a comparable effort. And, since your top speed drops off at about 10 datapoints, either you're crossing the 200m below your top speed, or you're losing speed on the homestretch.
That's right, 250m indoor track. I think I may be more of an explosive athlete, even a few second longer efforts at max power kill me. But I guess testing will tell!

Good point about the 10 data points... I wouldn't be surprised if I am loosing a bit of speed on the homestretch... Yeah I too think I must be jumping from too low a speed, even sometimes as low as 35 km/h, and those tend to lead to lower top speeds. So it all correlates. I will try to jump from closer to 45 km/h and see how that goes.

Originally Posted by carleton
You are overthinking it.
I know...

I wish I could have night sprint sessions like those, sounds sick! I don't think there are any at Derby velodrome though...
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Old 11-19-16, 12:06 AM
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Your max cadences are way too low. Adjust your gearing lower where you max out at around 140rpm. So, probably 47/13 or 48/13.

You are bogged down and you never get "on top" of the gear.

Cadence is your key metric. Not chainrings or cogs.

Work to stay in the 130-140RPM cadence range during the timed part of your flying 200. That's where the sweet spot of torque can cadence happens.
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Old 11-19-16, 12:11 AM
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Wait. I think this contradicts what Brawlo wrote. Take his advice. He's more active and up to date than I am.
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Old 11-20-16, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Carlosss View Post
I have too noticed that in smaller gears I gas out sooner and by the end of the 200m I struggle more.

Don't know about you guys but personally going high up the bankings around the corners in the windup always seems to tire me out. So I've been doing the slow path to the fence kinda thing, only staying at the fence around the corners for the final lap. I think my only issue is that sometimes I try to save too much energy and get too slow to the final back straight and then I lose about 1 km/h in max speed, specially with bigger gears. At the moment I was contemplating to go for 49/13 (102") but like you said if I make sure to to get to the final back straight a few km/h faster and get of the gas as usual around corner 4, I think 51/13 (106") could work out better. Maybe I could even get up to 125 RPM and get a big PR If I go for 49/13 I would have to get to around 130 RPM for a big PR. Mmmm...
The method of going straight to the fence can definitely leave you feeling worn out before you even start your run-in. Fitness is a factor, but also how you do it. I also preferred the steady drag up to the top until i was given some tips on the straight to the fence method. If you put more effort going down, out of the turns, and then let momentum get you up the next bank, rather than relaxing on the downs and pushing up each side, its FAR less tiring. I now prefer this method.

For context, my local track is 250m and 42deg in the bankings.
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Old 11-20-16, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Velocirapture View Post
The method of going straight to the fence can definitely leave you feeling worn out before you even start your run-in. Fitness is a factor, but also how you do it. I also preferred the steady drag up to the top until i was given some tips on the straight to the fence method. If you put more effort going down, out of the turns, and then let momentum get you up the next bank, rather than relaxing on the downs and pushing up each side, its FAR less tiring. I now prefer this method.

For context, my local track is 250m and 42deg in the bankings.
Yup, this is what I do - you look for little places to punch it to add speed, and try to float to maintain through the turns. Basically playing with how to put out power so that you add or maintain speed (or lose less of it). There are lots of different ways. Try to find the one that leaves you feeling good, ready to jump, and going pretty fast when you're on the backstraight a handful of seconds away from hearing that bell.
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Old 11-20-16, 12:32 PM
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Have you not spoken to the Derby track manager? I'm sure he'll put you onto a good sprint coach - that will benefit you far more quickly and efficiently than seeking advice on this forum, experienced tho' some of the posters may be.
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Old 11-20-16, 12:51 PM
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New racers, this thread illustrates why the Flying 200M isn't as simple as it seams.

Even in a local sprint tournament, the fastest qualifier and the last-est qualifier can be separated by only 1 second. Look at a stopwatch and see how quickly 1 second passes.

Strength and power aside, there is an element of choreography involved in order to simply do well, much less your very best.

What's more is that the Flying 200 simply prints you a ticket to get into the big dance. If you make it, you still have to dance your ass off to advance
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Old 11-20-16, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by atbman View Post
Have you not spoken to the Derby track manager? I'm sure he'll put you onto a good sprint coach - that will benefit you far more quickly and efficiently than seeking advice on this forum, experienced tho' some of the posters may be.
Derby hasn't got a track manager, they've got a head coach though. Think the OP has been coming to the weds sprint/pursuit session, Geoff has been coming to them, worth having a chat with him, he's probably forgotten more than what most people know, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geoff_Cooke_(cyclist)
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Old 11-20-16, 06:17 PM
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How did you end up going @Carlosss ?
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Old 11-22-16, 02:07 AM
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Originally Posted by brawlo View Post
How did you end up going @Carlosss ?
I might be wrong but I think he did 12.146 to just miss out on qualifying in 13th place. No1 in qualifying did 10.308
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Old 11-23-16, 04:57 PM
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Carlosss
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Originally Posted by Poppit View Post
I might be wrong but I think he did 12.146 to just miss out on qualifying in 13th place. No1 in qualifying did 10.308
Yup that's right! Ended up placing 13th out of 39... Can you believe it?! One spot out of the qualifying top 12 haha 12th qualifier got 12.045, damn it, just 0.1 of a second faster.

No. 1 was Lewis Oliva, now in the GB team I believe, he was a beast! There were another two insanely fast sprinters going under 11 seconds too. Former GB track cyclist Jess Varnish was also there winning the elimination race, which was pretty cool to watch.

My 12.146 flying 200m was a PB, 0.35 of a second under my previous record. And having looked at my speed measurements it seems I could've gotten below 12 seconds had I timed my sprint a bit better (I think). You can see the speed measurements in the graph below. It seems that out of the 12 seconds only about 7-8 were after I reached peak speed of 61.8 km/h (which was a peak speed PB too). That means for about 4 seconds of my flying lap I was still building speed, which isn't good because the first 2 seconds at under 60 km/h dragged my average speed down to about 59.3 km/h.

The problem is I was so focused and pumped up that suddenly I wasn't sure I had one lap to go so my windup speed was a bit on the low side. Thankfully I heard a friend shouting at me to push hard in the back straight before the flying 200 and managed to increase my speed to about 42 km/h before jumping out of T4, but it wasn't enough it seems. I did feel very fresh that time, the windup didn't fatigue me at all (getting the push up the banking to begin the windup helped of course ).

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Old 11-24-16, 12:49 AM
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Good job!

Can we see your chart of cadences?
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Old 11-24-16, 03:22 AM
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Yes, Sean, who has been coming to the same weds afternoon sessions, did a 10.8, might be worth hooking up with him at future sessions, although that's it until January because of the pantomime (don't ask!!).
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Old 11-24-16, 04:24 PM
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Great effort and a nice PB. By the look of it, you'll be under 12s in the near future.

Your speed in turns will (should) always be higher. Most of the reason is the physics fact that your centre of mass takes a shorter lower radius turn to your wheels, where the speed is measured at. So while your body continues to move at a given speed, you must speed up your wheels to keep up on the longer radius, hence the higher recorded speed in turns.

Did you get a video of your effort? It's good to go back and check 50m splits to see how your 200 progressed, even 100m splits which should have been on screen. Also try and get a check of your pre F200 50m split. This gives an indication of whether your entry speed is too quick. You basically want it to peak in your first timed 50m, not the lead in 50m. According to some old heads where I occasionally train, peaking speed in the 50m before the timed section is fairly common. That basically means your whole F200 takes in the drop off part of your speed curve, instead of having the peak within your F200 = a slower average and time. Although, that doesn't seem like it might be an issue for you, or that effort at least.

It also sucks being the first person to miss out on qualifying. Sometimes it might have been better to have been 20th, so you could at least say you didn't have a chance. At your progression, I don't think you'll be missing out too much more.
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Old 06-29-17, 03:26 PM
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Got a question about target setting.

Did my first flying 200 tonight, did about a 12.5. Topped out about 130rpm on a 49/13 on a not particularly aero setup (80mm tubs, road helmet, cheap ski suit, position not dialled in) and apparently my line wasn't very good (apparently about 5 foot away from the boards when launching and waiting too long and jumped in the straight).

So the question is...what is a reasonable target for improvement? Say over a 3 month period for example?
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