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DF4 seatpost slippage cures?

Old 12-28-16, 06:47 PM
  #1  
DMC707
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DF4 seatpost slippage cures?

For my 2017 program ---- I have been seriously thinking about going the Dolan DF4 route

Its a common frame with a serious pedigree and a lot of people a lot faster than me seem to choose them, -- and its a great price

But that said --
has anybody come up with a semi - permanent solution to the slipping seatpost dilemma?

I post in the Clyde forum a lot as I am around 250 lbs right now and on a 45 degree track, I would think if anyone is going to make it slip, it would be me

If there is no real solution, I may consider just keeping my "steel is real" machine going a while longer, as I plan to use a steel bike with a taller headtube for mass start stuff anyway
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Old 12-28-16, 11:37 PM
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Pop can shim. That's the fix for most seatpost slipping issues. Fixed mine on my Dolan Forza. Seatpost slipping is entirely due to the seatpost being undersized for the seat tube. No amount of tightening will fix it. Only way to fix is shimming.

It's because with carbon, you cannot make the seat tube undersized and fix with reaming like you can with the old school steel frames. You need to ensure that the seatpost will always fit within the seat tube, so they aim to oversize the seat tube and undersize the seatpost, which is why slipping is such a common issue. It's even worse when you go from round to non-round tubing/seatpost combos.
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Old 12-29-16, 01:10 PM
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Thank you sir

--- I still may give it a handful of training weekends on the old machinery before making a final decision --- that headtube height on that machine is low (as it is supposed to be)
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Old 12-29-16, 11:43 PM
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Ever think of the Fuji Track Elite? Similar TT lengths across the sizes and the head tube is a little taller.
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Old 12-30-16, 04:12 AM
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There was talk on one of the FB track groups about a new seat clamp provided by Dolan, but can't recall if they said it helped...
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Old 12-30-16, 05:19 AM
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DMC, you gotta ask yourself if the advantages of having a DF4 are worth potential seatpost slipping issues, especially if you are a bigger rider (I'm a bigger rider).

I'd suggest looking for a bike with a round seatpost that meets your other criteria. The DF3 fits that bill, if you can find one.

I have never heard anyone say that an aero seatpost made all the difference in the world and things got better. However, I've heard several times people say that their aero seatposts slipped on them.

The point is, the up side of an aero seatpost is negligible. The down side is huge.
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Old 12-30-16, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
DMC, you gotta ask yourself if the advantages of having a DF4 are worth potential seatpost slipping issues, especially if you are a bigger rider (I'm a bigger rider).
.
They are not, --- and i dont want to beer can shim a valuable frame

I decided to go custom steel -- i have been using a plain black Waterford for some time, so i wanted something with some flash in the paint department, as it will be my 1st new track machine in quite a while

I had been kicking the steel idea around for a while and have talked to a local builder about it on several past occasions -- but i happened to open the Dolan website and was actually taken aback at the pricing , so i thought , "Good enough for Steve Hill, Sky Christopherson, and many other fast guys --- good enough for me"

Even being a bargain, The Dolan is a serious frame for serious people, and i am an overweight masters category rider who just wants to keep the fun going

going custom steel is going to wind up costing a lot more, but its kind of like a heavy guy buying clothes on sale that are a size or 2 too small with the thoughts that he will lose weight to make them fit-------

------ mmmmmmm, - maybe. Or a year down the road, you still have a stack of clothes in the closet with tags on them that still dont fit

I wound up giving the local builder a deposit yesterday to secure my place in line and give him some cash to order tubes--- i will refrain from mentioning his name until he gets it done and i can verify that it's a rock solid machine, as the guy has less experience with track bikes than he does with artisan quality road and gravel bikes, - but the guy can weld and braze.

Im also making it easy for him by asking him to just use my old Waterford's geometry with the exception of a little longer head tube, and a little longer top tube to compensate

I will know how it all works out by May -

Last edited by DMC707; 12-30-16 at 09:56 AM.
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Old 12-30-16, 11:14 PM
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going custom steel is going to wind up costing a lot more,
It should cost less than a DF4. My custom Snyder was $1000 or less (can't recall).




2.77kg/6.10lbs!!


Go here for lots of pics: https://www.flickr.com/photos/carleton_hall

Notice the double seatpost clamp

At 61cm, it weighed the same as my Tiemeyer and less than the 57cm Felt TK1 I once owned. I designed the geometry myself. It has the same geometry as the DF3/DF4/Sprint Tiemeyer. No noticeable flex (is stiffer than the DF3).
@blackbullet (also not a small dude) rides one as well.

http://www.snydercycles.com/collections/track/

Last edited by carleton; 12-30-16 at 11:17 PM.
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Old 12-30-16, 11:56 PM
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
Do the eyelets on the track ends serve a purpose besides making them look like cartoon alligators? I like it either way.
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Old 12-31-16, 03:53 AM
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Originally Posted by seau grateau View Post
Do the eyelets on the track ends serve a purpose besides making them look like cartoon alligators? I like it either way.
Alligators all the way, hahahaha.



I think these were the longest ends that Seth (Snyder) had on hand. They have eyelets for mounting fenders on the city bikes he makes.

Sociale ? SNYDER CYCLES
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Old 12-31-16, 04:40 AM
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
Alligators all the way, hahahaha.



I think these were the longest ends that Seth (Snyder) had on hand. They have eyelets for mounting fenders on the city bikes he makes.

Sociale ? SNYDER CYCLES
Haha, that makes sense. And I guess you'll have options now if you ever want to put fenders on it for some reason.
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Old 12-31-16, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
It should cost less than a DF4. My custom Snyder was $1000 or less (can't recall).

url]
I think the DF4 shipped was around 1350 USD. Cost of a steel frame is all over the map -- $1000 is about the cheapest I've ever heard of , not uncommon for them to go for 3-4x that depending on the builder
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Old 12-31-16, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by DMC707 View Post
I think the DF4 shipped was around 1350 USD. Cost of a steel frame is all over the map -- $1000 is about the cheapest I've ever heard of , not uncommon for them to go for 3-4x that depending on the builder
When the DF3 was still in production, I thought the MSRP was around $2,000. But I guess I'm mistaken.

One thing to think about are your angles and measurements. I don't know who your builder is, but you should have a talk about those before (s)he starts building. Many steel builders simply use the same geometry as their street bikes.

If you don't know what geometry you want, simply use the geometry chart from well-known and proven track bikes like the LOOK 496 or Dolan DF3/DF4. That's pretty much like taking the pattern from a $10,000 suit and having a local tailor make it for you for a fraction of the price

Physics is physics. The bikes should handle the same way. That's what I did for my Snyder and it handled no differently than my more expensive frames.
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Old 12-31-16, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
Pop can shim. That's the fix for most seatpost slipping issues. Fixed mine on my Dolan Forza. Seatpost slipping is entirely due to the seatpost being undersized for the seat tube. No amount of tightening will fix it. Only way to fix is shimming.

It's because with carbon, you cannot make the seat tube undersized and fix with reaming like you can with the old school steel frames. You need to ensure that the seatpost will always fit within the seat tube, so they aim to oversize the seat tube and undersize the seatpost, which is why slipping is such a common issue. It's even worse when you go from round to non-round tubing/seatpost combos.
I recently bought a Colnago C-50 where the previous owner had shimmed the seatpost with an aluminum shim (CF frame/seatpost), and got the post stuck.

No Thanks. Get the right size of post. I've thought about epoxying a layer of CF onto a post though, to slightly enlarge it.

Looking at the DF4, with a non-round post, there are fewer options. But, I'm also not seeing any notes on the web about problems. Has the OP found some concerning reviews?

Personally I run my seat posts dry (no lube). I'm not sure why some people have problems, and some don't. But if one avoids incompatible metals, then it should be fine.
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Old 01-02-17, 09:47 PM
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
If you don't know what geometry you want, simply use the geometry chart from well-known and proven track bikes like the LOOK 496 or Dolan DF3/DF4. That's pretty much like taking the pattern from a $10,000 suit and having a local tailor make it for you for a fraction of the price

Physics is physics. The bikes should handle the same way. That's what I did for my Snyder and it handled no differently than my more expensive frames.
Physics is sufficiently complex that simplifications are often necessary to be useful in it's applications. My wife is a Physicist and she has a favorite phrase that she picked up in grad school: Now assume a spherical cow. It's a physics joke, but I assure you it's hilarious. Now why am I bringing this up? Well, the statement physics is physics is true, but the statement that two bicycles with the same geometry will have the same handling characteristics could be true, but could also be false. As in your example of the Look 496, to say a steel tubed frame will handle with the same characteristics of multi-dimensional and unidirectional carbon lay-ups of the Look is something I could not fathom. Heck, comparing my new titanium frame to my old steel with the same geometry I can tell that they feel and handle differently.

If the OP is happy with his current steel ride, I can tell you as a guy who sometimes races down at 250lbs (270-280 more likely), modern geometries don't always work for us Clydesdales. For example, sufficient headtube length(plus a bunch of spacers) is needed for any frame that I choose. Building up a new steel frame with similar geometry & tube diameters should yield something similar in comfort and position that will be a known quantity for the OP. The old Waterford track geometry is still the default geometry used by many custom frame builders.
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Old 01-02-17, 10:24 PM
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OK, this is a shaped CF post in a CF frame, so many of the classic, proven methods aren't available to you. Plus there doesn't seem to be a collar so I gather it's some kind of wedge in the back.

If I saw the cluster and clamping system, I might be able to come up with something, but others here probably already did that, so I'll give you a last ditch, when all else has failed, off the wall possibility.

Find a length of PVC pipe with the largest diameter that will fit down the seat tube. Cut it off longer than the seat tube and drop it down and see if it finds some kind of solid bottom.

Now, improvise a retrieval system by drilling a hole and setting a cross pin near one end, which will be the top, and which you'll snag with an improvised or bought crochet hook. Now, you'll do all your cutting from the other end, and the goal is to cut it to a length such that the post is supported on it at the right height. Hint - start long and do a rough cut, then come to the right length by degrees, being careful not to cut too short and have to start again.

When you're finished, you'll still clamp the normal way, but the post will act as a dead stop and provide that added bit of resistance to slippage.
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Old 01-02-17, 10:50 PM
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Originally Posted by dunderhi View Post
Physics is sufficiently complex that simplifications are often necessary to be useful in it's applications. My wife is a Physicist and she has a favorite phrase that she picked up in grad school: Now assume a spherical cow. It's a physics joke, but I assure you it's hilarious. Now why am I bringing this up? Well, the statement physics is physics is true, but the statement that two bicycles with the same geometry will have the same handling characteristics could be true, but could also be false.
Touché

Originally Posted by dunderhi View Post
As in your example of the Look 496, to say a steel tubed frame will handle with the same characteristics of multi-dimensional and unidirectional carbon lay-ups of the Look is something I could not fathom.
I can fathom...because I've owned both




And a DF3:


And a TK1:


My steel bike is as good as all of them while I output over 2,000W

The steel bike isn't perfect. I don't like the track ends. I really wish Snyder could have created a titanium track end system. I was really spoiled by the ti track ends on the Tiemeyers and the TK1.

I firmly believe that It doesn't take much to make a really, really good track bike to serve 90% of the trackies out there (the other 10% are the world-class, 2,500W sprinters or pursuiters who win/lose by less than 1/10s). The DF3 was really close until they had track end issues (slipping on early models then bending on later ones). I think Tiemeyers were better than the DF3, especially when you consider that the geometry was custom to the rider (and the custom paint color for free). The wind doesn't know if it's goiing around an aluminum or carbon fiber frame. It only touches the paint. (On a related note, I always thought the the TK1 was a carbon descendant of the Tiemeyer Signature frame).

Any product that fails the rider undoes everything that it brought to the table.

- Slipping seatpost? Bike failure.
- Tilting seat mast topper? Bike failure.
- Slipping track end? Bike failure.
- Deforming/bending track ends? Bike failure.
- Weak rear triangle that is mushy on standing starts? Bike failure.
- Bayonet stem that is flexy? Bike failure.

I'm sure that many of you are in the road forums around here. They also complain about seatpost issues. I seriously don't know why bike manufacturers keep issuing proprietary aero seatposts on mid to high-end bikes.

Last edited by carleton; 01-02-17 at 11:03 PM.
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Old 01-02-17, 10:55 PM
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Also: The BT Stealth might be perfect. I've never owned one. Just been around a few. They are really expensive, though.
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Old 01-03-17, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
I can fathom...because I've owned both

And a DF3:

And a TK1:

My steel bike is as good as all of them while I output over 2,000W
I think you missed my point, I didn't claim that building a steel (or any other material) bike with the same geometry as the Look would automatically be bad, I just can't imagine that it would have the identical physical properties. For example, if Snyder built your frame out of 1980's vintage Vitus aluminum would you expect it to be identical to your current frame?
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Old 01-03-17, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
Also: The BT Stealth might be perfect. I've never owned one. Just been around a few. They are really expensive, though.
Never had my seat post slip on mine... Quite a few these days come through for sale down under and not as expensive as you would expect.
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Old 01-03-17, 04:17 PM
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heh.

cartoon alligator.
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Old 01-03-17, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by dunderhi View Post
.

If the OP is happy with his current steel ride, I can tell you as a guy who sometimes races down at 250lbs (270-280 more likely), modern geometries don't always work for us Clydesdales. For example, sufficient headtube length(plus a bunch of spacers) is needed for any frame that I choose. Building up a new steel frame with similar geometry & tube diameters should yield something similar in comfort and position that will be a known quantity for the OP. The old Waterford track geometry is still the default geometry used by many custom frame builders.

Yes -the Waterford is still a fine machine

sometimes you just need a new bike though

For steel, I am going thin wall OS tubing on this one with a 1 1/8 front end (old bike still has a 1" front end) --- should sharpen up the handling a bit I hope
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Old 01-03-17, 08:55 PM
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Originally Posted by DMC707 View Post
Yes -the Waterford is still a fine machine

sometimes you just need a new bike though

For steel, I am going thin wall OS tubing on this one with a 1 1/8 front end (old bike still has a 1" front end) --- should sharpen up the handling a bit I hope
Despite buying a new track each season, I raced mostly on my pre-Waterford Paramount for the last season, so I do appreciate the classics AND the need for a new bike.
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Old 01-03-17, 09:03 PM
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I didn't check EVERY post, but it seems to me that nobody's discussing solutions to the OPs problem, except to not buy that bike.

So, just out of curiosity, did anyone post a fix?
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Old 01-03-17, 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
I didn't check EVERY post, but it seems to me that nobody's discussing solutions to the OPs problem, except to not buy that bike.

So, just out of curiosity, did anyone post a fix?
Brian posted an option in the 2nd post:

Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
Pop can shim. That's the fix for most seatpost slipping issues. Fixed mine on my Dolan Forza. Seatpost slipping is entirely due to the seatpost being undersized for the seat tube. No amount of tightening will fix it. Only way to fix is shimming.

It's because with carbon, you cannot make the seat tube undersized and fix with reaming like you can with the old school steel frames. You need to ensure that the seatpost will always fit within the seat tube, so they aim to oversize the seat tube and undersize the seatpost, which is why slipping is such a common issue. It's even worse when you go from round to non-round tubing/seatpost combos.
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