dunderhi

How about Madisons? Do think both team mates should stay at the bottom all of the time? Certainly, if half the field is capable of moving up track every other lap without incident, then a few dropped racers in points race should be able to do the same.

bitingduck

Not at all, and yes, I've ridden more than a few. In a madison everybody is expecting there to be slow riders at the upper part of the track and moving across the track. And the situation you've called dangerous (the whole pack having to pass slow riders at the bottom) happens many, many times per race, with the riders moving even slower than a tempo rider. Collisions and near collisions *are* more frequent in madisons, in part because of all the crossing, and it does take a higher skill level and different attention than a points race or scratch race.

Divebrian

A few observations (from my point of view) that may answer a few questions.
Rider 2 was on the black line and occupying the sprinters lane for 10 meters before rider 1's wheel touched the red line.
Rider 2 was clearly going faster than rider 1.
Rider 1 did not maliciously or quickly come down on rider 2.
If rider 2 had maintained his line and speed, contact would have been shoulder to shoulder....not back wheel to front wheel or handle bar to hip.

From my point of view, rider 2 was more experienced and had the presence of mind to avoid rider 1, who was slower and less experienced. This was not a national or world level competition, it was a club level race. The type of race in heat one where you could have an experienced number 1 seed going against an inexperienced last place seed. Alot of times with our attendance, we are just happy to have more than 3 people show up. My question was from the occupying the sprint lane vs impeding point of view. My thought is that rider 2 occupied the sprint lane and rider 1 impeded him. As I said, fortunately it had a positive outcome as rider 2 had the experience, speed and desire to keep it from going south. I also believe that if rider 2 had held his line and speed, rider 1 would have been the one hitting the deck as rider 2 was larger and appeared to have better bike handling skills.

If you made the same observations as myself and rider 2 held his line, contact occured and rider 1 went down, would you say that rider 2 occupied the sprint lane and rider 1 impeded? Or would you say that even though he was slower, rider 1 was initially ahead on the track and rider 2 had the obligation to avoid contact and go over the top and pass on the right?

carleton

The difference is that in a Madison, the rest of the field expects the other half to move about as they do.

In a Madison, the Stayer's line is designated for the purpose of providing a safe rest/rolling area for the relief riders. The race happens under the stayer's line. This is not so during a points or scratch race. The entire width of the track is fair game.

One of the worst things one can do in a heated bunch race is to roll up to the boards and ride slowly until the pack comes around.

I've seen drama happen when an inexperienced rider sees faster guys approaching from behind and the inexperienced rider thinks he's doing them a favor by moving out of their way...by moving into their way. The thing to do is stay put in the sprinter's lane and let them overtake you. If you are really gassed, then leave the track. The notion that it's a good idea to roll around at the rail and regain your strength sounds good...but is not a good idea.

I've also seen random pull-ups cause an accident. "I was trying to let my teammate through!"...and proceeded to take out everyone trying to pass over the top of he and his teammate.

dunderhi

Maybe it's time for a poll of the tracks. Carleton, do the officials at D.L. instruct about to be lapped riders to stay low or do they waive them up track... long before they present any danger to the oncoming racers? It looks like LA doesn't, but they do at Ttown and Kissena. Maybe it's the length of the track and/or rider experience level implementation.

I'll add this to my list of questions for the Commisaires this weekend. Are there any other officiating types of questions that anyone wants me to ask?

topflightpro

At Rock Hill, I was told by officials to move up to give room for the field.

bitingduck

Oh, the number of times I've wished that were actually true...

It's mostly true, and the more experienced and faster the field the more likely it is to be true. But when things slow down and people don't plan their tandem/triple/etc exchanges right it can really stack up. And I've seen races where the whole field slowed down and moved up like a points race so the exchanges were all happening between the blue and the rail. It generally works out ok, but there can be some interesting periods.




Our general policy was always to let people lose one lap, but unless the race was really small (pretty rare) you'd get pulled when you lost a second lap. There are reasons you can be dropped that don't involve being totally gassed, but when people start losing multiple laps they're only going to keep doing it. I haven't raced in a few years, but I doubt that it's changed with the current race management.


One of the benefits of a really good PA and nearly always having a dedicated announcer is that when people do sketchy things they hear about it moments later on the PA: "Rider A looks left and moves right..." with a little admonishment. It's very effective at getting people to look before they move.

theblackbullet

at Dick Lane, the previous track director was a "hold your line when getting lapped" guy. the current track director, going on 3rd season, initially pushed "move up track when getting lapped" but seems to finally have settled with "hold your line". Our track is so narrow, that if a lapped riding begins to move up track a little bit late, things can go bad quick. There's less margin for error. As a racer, it's what I prefer for DLV. On one of our big race weekends, we typically allow for a rider to become lapped once before being finished. On a weeknight race they are allowed to go down however many laps so long as they are safe in doing so.

johnbobby

I race at DLV as well and am very experienced at getting lapped. If I think I can get back on with the group and I'm just one lap down, I will move up track when there's a safe opportunity, and then use the banking to help myself get on the back of the group. Otherwise in my experience it's very difficult to merge back into the group from the pole lane. More than 1 lap down, I just stay in the pole lane, and probably quit the race soon.

dunderhi

Okay, I asked the commisaires:

1) The sprint - different replies, but one said relative speeds didn't matter, since the rule is one bike length ahead (no overlap). The others said they would need to see the actual sprint to rule if it was impeding or proper. Part of their consideration is what the second rider could have done (move up track) vice what he actually did (backed off). It was stated that the rules only take you so far and after that, it requires a judgement call.

2) Lapped rider - One said move him up the track to get him out of the way. The others said that's not universal, but the best practice as an official is to let the riders do whatever they are most comfortable doing and counsel the riders that don't know what they are doing.

So, there you have it - all that I know. The good news is that I will be an apprentice official at least four UCI track events next month, so I will be learning much as I possibly can as a new official.

Fast4 50

I had this exact situation happen to me last week at the 7-11 track in Colorado Springs. I was the trailing rider, jumped, got to the sprinters lane first. The leading rider covered my move came down on top of me and forced me on to the blue band. I passed him (I was moving faster than him) came back on to the track and crossed the finish line first.

I was relegated. I guess the ref relegated me for passing on the blue band. I didn't agree but know enough that you can't win those arguments. I guess its a judgement call.

taras0000

If he wasn't in front of you at any point, but only beside you, and no contact was made, then the official was right. If his handlebars had gotten ahead of yours, then you aren't allowed to pass on the inside. Just lodge a formal protest after the heat is over.

dunderhi

From my novice officiating POV (and former racer), passing on the blue is a big-time violation (it's also incredibly obvious) and you will get called every time no matter the circumstance. If the other rider violated the sprint lane and pushed you onto the blue band, then back off and protest - that is if they didn't already relegated the other rider.

BTW, I will be officiating for my fourth day of UCI competition this Friday and there will be sprints again, so I'll let you know if I hear anything different from the pros.

carleton

I think that you have a chance of getting the benefit of the doubt if you pulled ahead (slightly) while on the blue band, but then gave up any advantage you had gained when you get back on the track.

Basically, as though you used the blue band as an "emergency lane" not a "passing lane".

I believe that's what Bos does in the video earlier in this thread.

Fast4 50

Think about it this way, If I was being passed by the other rider, can he enter the Sprinters lane until his rear wheel is clear of my front wheel? What makes this situation unique is the faster rider is in position two and occupying the sprinters lane...

I guess the point I was trying to make is that officiating is tough and it boils down to making a judgement call. Here's the url to the video clip. youtu.be/MBOCH_IcP8Y (I can't link it cause I don't have enough posts under my belt).

Fast4 50

I don't understand what you mean. My handlebars were definitely in front of his when he entered the sprinters lane.

I was the trailing rider and I engaged the sprint by diving underneath him when he looked forward. It's a weird situation but when he entered the sprinters lane he was basically on my hip but moving much slower than me. I went to the blue band to avoid crashing him. I was on the blue band for less than a second and went there to avoid contact.

carleton

After you got back on the track, did you let him draw even with you and then continue on?

...or did you keep the lead that you gained while being off the track?

I think that's the thing to consider.

Going off the track does not disqualify anyone, even in mass start races. People get pushed off all the time and they go down there to avoid contact and keep everyone safe. If you come back up into the same position or you relinquish the position that you gained while being under, that will help your argument that you did not go down there to advance your position.

But, even in a scratch race or keirin, if a racer gets pushed down to the apron through no fault of his own (let's say avoiding an accident), and he gains even one position, he's at fault.


So, as I mentioned before, I think if you had gone down, came back up and let him draw even, then you may not have been relegated.

carleton

Also, as I'm sure you all know, the rule is rooted in safety. If passing on the apron were not severly penalized, then people would do it in races.

Now imagine coming out of turn 4 in the sprinter's lane and then some guy who is trapped in the the sprinter's lane behind you (with people blocking him in on the right). Then all of a sudden that guy comes charging down the apron on your left...or at least you hear him trying. Then his spot that he was in closed. Turn 1 is approaching quickly. He didn't complete the pass that he was so certain he had the juice for. You are all going 35mph. Then you all enter turn one and he does too...but your turn is banked and his isn't.

Either he's going to plow into the pack that's entering turn 1 OR he's going to try to make the turn and do a hook slide into the apron...then proceed to plow into the pack in turn 1.

gl98115

I would chat up the official for an explanation.

taras0000

That vid gives some sort of context to the situation, but doesn't actually show what went on, just how it started.

You came underneath him, went on the blue band and came out ahead. If so then you passed on the blue band. Official was right. If no contact was made, then you voluntarily went to the blue band.

Once a rider initiates the sprint and occupies the lane, the other rider may not enter the lane until they have one clear bike length lead on the occupying rider. If they enter the lane and obstruct you after you initiated and occupied the lane, they are impeding you.

For future reference: If you were ahead of him when you entered the Sprinter's lane, then there is no reason for you to move out of the way. If he comes down on you and makes contact, ride it out safely and protest it after the heat. If you were already in the Sprinters lane, but your bars were behind his, and he shut down your move by pinning you down, you can protest after the heat. If you felt there would've been a crash because of the way he came down on you, then you protest it after the heat.

If you are leading, then hold your line and make them adjust theirs. If you are leading you're in control. In the lead and go out of bounds? That's your fault. If you dive under a rider, you can't go onto the blue band. The rule states you cannot pass on the blue band. When you dove under him, you went to overtake him. When it comes to the rules, Overtake + Blue band = passing on blue band.

I'm not sure what your experience level is. If you're relatively new to track (less than 2 seasons), you've found out that sprinting is a game if inches, and often times those inches disappear and contact is made. There is nothing wrong with this if your bike handling is good. Often times, beginners make moves on the track, but don't always have the requisite tools to make those moves stick. This would be one of those situations (although it's tough to fully and objectively evaluate it because POV video like this doesn't show us what's actually happening and I don't know how skilled you are). If you cut it close (not directed at you, this is a generic statement to anyone who can use the advice), make sure that you can see the move through. If the other rider oversteers into your path because they're not that skilled, then back off, ride it out, and settle it after. If you can handle some bump and grind, then you get a little more leeway to play.

In the end we all would love to see everyone go home with the same number of fingers, toes, and IQ points that we arrived with. Ride safe, play safe, and if something goes wrong, stay safe and it can all be sorted out afterwards.

dunderhi

My take as racer watching your video, it looks like you shot straight past the sprinters lane onto the blue band and corrected yourself back onto the track. Given that you said he was on your hip and coming down on you, I not sure why you just didn't establish and hold your line in the sprinters lane. You had the positional advantage. I don't think you would have been in much danger of crashing, unless he was a lot bigger than you.

As an official, I would assume that since this was a Thursday night race, there wasn't an assistant ref on the back straight, so the chief ref was most likely standing on the home straight or on the judges stand half a track away from you. From there, (s)he saw you dive under the other rider go onto the blue band momentarily and come back on track in the front position. It's obvious when a rider is on the blue band, so it's still easy to see half a track away. The encroachment, maybe not so much. I'm not sure how the call would have gone any differently, given the circumstances as described.

Out of curiosity, how far into the sprinter's lane did the other rider travel: on the red line, in the middle, or down to the measurement line?

P.S. Yes, officials have to make tough calls and we don't always get it right. I like judging eliminations, but since there is no instant video review in the non-UCI events, I'm certain that I've made a couple mistakes that are impossible to take back. Luckily, most riders also know this challenge and let it go. We do the best we can and I surprised at the lengths we do go to make sure it is right. I save all of my notes and paperwork, since other officials and racers alike have asked me about a particular race as much as a week later.

Fast4 50

The other rider probably came down to the measurement line. He came down far and fast enough for me to take my chances on the blue band at 30mph in turn one. I was acting on instinct and was sorta surprised that I was able to still make my bike obey me rather than the laws of physics

dunderhi

Wow, if he came all of the way down to the measurement line, then that's a another situation all together. You only hit the blue band for about a second, so did you have a bike length you opponent almost immediately or did he move up track as soon as he realized what he did? I'm not sure how you guys didn't have any contact. Good job in staying upright.

Previously, I thought you were on the back straight, so after watching your video again, I saw where the chief ref was standing. He should have had a very clear view of your sprint, but there were two people standing near the finish line (CJ & L&B?) potentially blocking his view of the beginning of turn one. At Kissena we have similar line of sight challenges, but at least the judge(s) can catch some infractions from the stand and pass it down to the CR. The level of the competition also drives how many officials are present, which means local races with only three officials: CR, CJ, and L&B will have a much harder time assessing each and every situation completely than say a UCI race which may have ten officials all on radios for instant communications, plus cameras/instant replay techs to catch everything that is going on.

tobukog

I think you did the right thing and he should have been relegated. You obviously had the sprinters lane. Let's change the situation: what if he was half a bike ahead, the sprint was engaged, you were in the sprinters lane, he chops you by riding to the measurement line, you dip into the blue for a fraction of a second -- that would be an automatic relegation regardless of whether you out dragged it out or not.

Obviously, some of these are judgement calls. Last year at Dick Lane I was leading the pack in a madison and a relief rider suddenly came down into the sprinters lane at the last second. I was forced to go into the blue (as going over the top would have sent me into another relief rider), and after the race I was given a warning, which was complete BS. You do what you have to do to maintain the safety of the race.

queerpunk

Most riders know - or should know - that they'll benefit from the challenges that officials face when calling eliminations as often as they'll suffer from it.