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DIY Bike Fitting for Track

Old 12-02-18, 05:39 AM
  #76  
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I suppose it depends on what tools you're using for a DIY fit - someone filming you ride with a smartphone from the side and the front will pick up the majority of things a professional fitter will be looking for while you're riding. If you're just hopping on the bike and riding you can miss some really obvious stuff.
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Old 12-02-18, 03:15 PM
  #77  
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That’s the point.

Why spend an hour with a fitter doing the basics that will get one “90% there” when that could be done at home. Use that hour to dial in that last 10%, like shoe wedges, pedal axle extensions, etc...

Also, let’s say you have your $300 fit, but midway through the season you are more flexible. Do you want to pay another $300 for a tweak?
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Old 12-03-18, 10:47 AM
  #78  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post

At some point in time, just like we should all learn to do maintenance on our bikes, we should also learn how to fit ourselves on our bikes. While I do believe that paying for a good bike fit from a professional can be worth it, there are times when it may not. [SNIP]
I'm just getting around to this one, which is timely, as I am experimenting with my fit. Are there any rules of thumb guidelines (ranges) on angles for hip, torso, leg, arm, etc for endurance/mass start events? I have some new video and pics and an app that measures angles, but I'm just not finding a lot of recommendations out there for track. And what I find frustrating is these pages that show recommended angles, but the rider is practically upright in the saddle? WTF!? Check out the track cycling academy page on fit...totally absurd...they show a measure line for knee cap to pedal axle that starts with the left knee and goes to the right pedal (ridiculous). I'm interested in fit from two perspectives: 1) the more relaxed body geometry such as mid/beginning scratch race when drafting, and 2) the more aggressive position when you are leaning more forward on the end of the seat and in more of an aero position, arms more bent, etc.

For the time being, I am just looking for some "model" pics of pros on the track, and comparing their body geometry with mine.
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Old 12-03-18, 01:02 PM
  #79  
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Yeah, the internet is full of advice when it comes to bike fitting. Most comes from the road and TT world where the demands are similar but significantly different.

The advice I give (and followed myself) is to find one or two top level athletes that participate in the events you like and have a similar dimensions as you (e.g. short and stocky, tall and gangly, average). For example, I might choose Chris Hoy over Cav or Glaetzer as my model. Save photos and videos of them preferably from the side or front where they are square with the camera.

One good source is instagram (the athlete’s profile) another is Flickr (the photographer’s profile). It helps if you happen to choose a popular athlete.

These athletes have likely had the best fitters in the world and seen more wind tunnel time than most. This can be your target. Adjust for comfort, age, flexibility, etc.
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Old 12-03-18, 01:05 PM
  #80  
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If the website won’t let you save the photo, simply take a screenshot of it.
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Old 12-03-18, 04:00 PM
  #81  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
Yeah, the internet is full of advice when it comes to bike fitting. Most comes from the road and TT world where the demands are similar but significantly different.

The advice I give (and followed myself) is to find one or two top level athletes that participate in the events you like and have a similar dimensions as you (e.g. short and stocky, tall and gangly, average). For example, I might choose Chris Hoy over Cav or Glaetzer as my model. Save photos and videos of them preferably from the side or front where they are square with the camera.

One good source is instagram (the athlete’s profile) another is Flickr (the photographer’s profile). It helps if you happen to choose a popular athlete.

These athletes have likely had the best fitters in the world and seen more wind tunnel time than most. This can be your target. Adjust for comfort, age, flexibility, etc.
Good tips. Thanks Carleton! So I found this app that Rainmaker reviewed for doing bike fits and I paid the $15 for the elite version. See below URL. It's pretty cool and I am still getting to know how to use it. It's a bit tricky by yourself, but at least it has a 30s self timer...hit the button, run to my bike, get on and try to get into a fairly normal riding pace in 15 sec, and then it shoots the video. Then you add your points for it to calculate the angles of everything. I was able to get a good snapshot with my cranks at 6:00 position, but when I run the video the dots don't track with my movement. I think I may have to add actual sticky reflective dots on my body for it to follow them. I just put a new seat on and have been messing with my fit. This one feels alright. This is not my most aero position...I can lean forward a lot more and scoot my butt back another 2cm when in my seated sprint mode.

https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2013/10/...ent-review.htm

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Old 12-03-18, 04:04 PM
  #82  
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Your saddle is below what I normally suggest by a fair bit, and I normally suggest people run a low saddle. It looks like you could use a little more reach as well imo.
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Old 12-03-18, 04:14 PM
  #83  
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Originally Posted by Morelock View Post
Your saddle is below what I normally suggest by a fair bit, and I normally suggest people run a low saddle. It looks like you could use a little more reach as well imo.
Think you're right. I'm will try a 1cm increase in my seat height, and moving to a 110mm stem vs. 100mm. Or I can just move my saddle back 1cm. It's about neutral right now, on both the rails and the contraption that bolts onto the post.
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Old 12-03-18, 04:44 PM
  #84  
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@krispenhartung
I would not move back (yet) so long as adding a little stem length will stay within regs as that effectively lowers your saddle height more.
In theory as you move the saddle up you'd also move it forward to preserve the same angle, but in your case I don't think I would (again...yet at least) as I think you're just too low to start with. In general (and bike fitting is equal parts science and voodoo) when people get below 135° knee angle is when I start looking at *why.*

(If you scroll up a bit SF posted a pic of her fit that Missy/EROsport did. Knee angle is closer to 140 and she's stretched out a bit)
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Old 12-03-18, 05:19 PM
  #85  
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Originally Posted by Morelock View Post
@krispenhartung
I would not move back (yet) so long as adding a little stem length will stay within regs as that effectively lowers your saddle height more.
In theory as you move the saddle up you'd also move it forward to preserve the same angle, but in your case I don't think I would (again...yet at least) as I think you're just too low to start with. In general (and bike fitting is equal parts science and voodoo) when people get below 135° knee angle is when I start looking at *why.*

(If you scroll up a bit SF posted a pic of her fit that Missy/EROsport did. Knee angle is closer to 140 and she's stretched out a bit)
Jeeesh....I was looking at my bike fit notes and no wonder my seat is so low...either it slipped, or my last saddle sat higher on the post, because it was 1.5cm lower than my target! Well, that's fixed. New stem on the way, and then I'll plug everything in, get some new video and measurements, etc.
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Old 12-03-18, 07:00 PM
  #86  
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Originally Posted by krispenhartung View Post
Think you're right. I'm will try a 1cm increase in my seat height, and moving to a 110mm stem vs. 100mm. Or I can just move my saddle back 1cm. It's about neutral right now, on both the rails and the contraption that bolts onto the post.
Don't do 1cm.

Start with a 130mm stem...TRUST. Don't think. Just do it.

130mm stem. Pick a stem angle and risers to put your hands similarly above the tire line as you have them now. Essentially sliding your hands forward 3cm.

Video/mark the session. Report back. You'll be amazed.

EDIT:

Also, if you have one, use a rear wheel trainer (mag or fluid) that way you don't have to worry about staying upright on rollers. Mag is preferred because you can add resistance and see if and how your form changes under load.

Last edited by carleton; 12-03-18 at 07:05 PM.
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Old 12-03-18, 09:11 PM
  #87  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
Don't do 1cm.

Start with a 130mm stem...TRUST. Don't think. Just do it.

130mm stem. Pick a stem angle and risers to put your hands similarly above the tire line as you have them now. Essentially sliding your hands forward 3cm.

Video/mark the session. Report back. You'll be amazed.

EDIT:

Also, if you have one, use a rear wheel trainer (mag or fluid) that way you don't have to worry about staying upright on rollers. Mag is preferred because you can add resistance and see if and how your form changes under load.
Interesting. 130mm worries me a bit. I have a relatively shorter torso than average, meaning it looks proportionately shorter than my legs, or conversely, my legs look proportionately longer than my torso. I can certainly try it. $40 for a 130mm 3T ARX II PRO (+/-6) STEM isn't a big deal. The problem is that if I go 130mm, this will push my stem out and also up. In order to keep my hands vertically where they are now, I would need a stem that is angled less than 6 degrees.

However, since I just raised my seat 1.5cm, I can probably afford to raise my stem a bit, right?

Last edited by krispenhartung; 12-03-18 at 09:31 PM.
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Old 12-03-18, 10:03 PM
  #88  
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Originally Posted by krispenhartung View Post
However, since I just raised my seat 1.5cm, I can probably afford to raise my stem a bit, right?
Your bars will rise 3 to 5mm. You'll actually be "lower" up front, as well as being further forward.
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Old 12-03-18, 10:08 PM
  #89  
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Originally Posted by taras0000 View Post
Your bars will rise 3 to 5mm. You'll actually be "lower" up front, as well as being further forward.
ok, I'm confused, Right now I have a 100mm stem on the bike and it is flipped, so it is angled up. If I put a 130mm stem on it, also flipped, that will push it forward, and also up (higher). Am I being dyslexic here?
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Old 12-03-18, 11:45 PM
  #90  
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Bruh...you are overthinking this.

Trust.
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Old 12-04-18, 08:10 AM
  #91  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
Bruh...you are overthinking this.

Trust.
I'm just being cautious. 30mm is not a minor change in the world of bike fitting, is going far beyond the rule of thumb of having combined Top Tube/Stem Length is 64cm, and I'd like to avoid having to buy several different stems of different lengths and angles. These purchases add up. :-) That being said, knowing now that my bar height WILL rise slightly going from a flipped 100mm stem to flipped 130mm stem, I was able to find a 0 degree stem from Easton, the EA90. I bought both 120mm and 130mm versions of this stem, plus I already have a 3T 110mm stem, but is angled at 6 degrees. This should give me plenty of options to dial things in. I'm also going to some different drop bars, so I have to factor that in as well. I expect to have all this dialed in by the next few weeks.
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Old 12-04-18, 08:53 AM
  #92  
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Use this to figure out the differences: Stem Comparison Tool | yojimg.net
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Old 12-04-18, 12:57 PM
  #93  
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Originally Posted by topflightpro View Post
Use this to figure out the differences: Stem Comparison Tool | yojimg.net
That's awesome! Very cool.
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Old 12-04-18, 01:06 PM
  #94  
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Originally Posted by topflightpro View Post
Use this to figure out the differences: Stem Comparison Tool | yojimg.net
Love this tool! 100mm (current) comparison with 120mm and 130mm.


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Old 12-04-18, 01:45 PM
  #95  
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Originally Posted by topflightpro View Post
Use this to figure out the differences: Stem Comparison Tool | yojimg.net
nice, that saves me a lot of jotting done in the garage.
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Old 12-04-18, 02:07 PM
  #96  
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Originally Posted by krispenhartung View Post
I'm just being cautious. 30mm is not a minor change in the world of bike fitting, is going far beyond the rule of thumb of having combined Top Tube/Stem Length is 64cm, and I'd like to avoid having to buy several different stems of different lengths and angles. These purchases add up. :-) That being said, knowing now that my bar height WILL rise slightly going from a flipped 100mm stem to flipped 130mm stem, I was able to find a 0 degree stem from Easton, the EA90. I bought both 120mm and 130mm versions of this stem, plus I already have a 3T 110mm stem, but is angled at 6 degrees. This should give me plenty of options to dial things in. I'm also going to some different drop bars, so I have to factor that in as well. I expect to have all this dialed in by the next few weeks.
Stop. Thinking.

Install. 130mm Stem.

Take. Photos.




No one is asking you to buy a new frame, cut your steerer, cut your seat mast, or even change your saddle position.

You don't even have to buy a new stem. Just borrow one from a friend or your favorite shop. Hell, if you buy one, you can probably turn around and return it if you don't like it.

1cm increments are not enough to show dramatic changes. Period.. This isn't a fine-tuning adjustment.

This entire experiment will take 15 minutes.

You seem to be uncomfortable because it's not what you think you should do. Think about this, until now, everything is the sum of what you think should be done. This is external influence. It will feel weird. But, it might work and make you faster.

15 minutes. No cutting. No welding.

Breathe and relax. Sometimes change is good
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Old 12-04-18, 02:11 PM
  #97  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
Stop. Thinking.

Install. 130mm Stem.

Take. Photos.




No one is asking you to buy a new frame, cut your steerer, cut your seat mast, or even change your saddle position.

You don't even have to buy a new stem. Just borrow one from a friend or your favorite shop. Hell, if you buy one, you can probably turn around and return it if you don't like it.

1cm increments are not enough to show dramatic changes. Period.. This isn't a fine-tuning adjustment.

This entire experiment will take 15 minutes.

You seem to be uncomfortable because it's not what you think you should do. Think about this, until now, everything is the sum of what you think should be done. This is external influence. It will feel weird. But, it might work and make you faster.

15 minutes. No cutting. No welding.

Breathe and relax. Sometimes change is good
You're persistent, Carleton, but also persuasive. I'll take the leap. Stem is on the way, with new bars as well. Stay tuned. :-)
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Old 12-04-18, 02:15 PM
  #98  
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Originally Posted by krispenhartung View Post
You're persistent, Carleton, but also persuasive. I'll take the leap. Stem is on the way, with new bars as well. Stay tuned. :-)


Awesome. The only risk is losing 15 minutes.

The reluctance you feel is the same that people had when the transition from 40cm track bars to 35/37cm track bars happened.

“That’s too narrow!”, “Can’t possibly breathe!”, “Any stem over 110mm is for circus bikes!”

All who said that are riding narrow bars with long stems now.
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Old 12-04-18, 06:43 PM
  #99  
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Originally Posted by taras0000 View Post
Your bars will rise 3 to 5mm. You'll actually be "lower" up front, as well as being further forward.
Originally Posted by krispenhartung View Post
ok, I'm confused, Right now I have a 100mm stem on the bike and it is flipped, so it is angled up. If I put a 130mm stem on it, also flipped, that will push it forward, and also up (higher). Am I being dyslexic here?

I noticed you already ordered your parts. I'll just clarify the point I was making. You mentioned that your saddle was 1.5 cm too low. You said you were going to readjust it by moving it up 1 cm. The increase in bar height is going to be less than the increase in saddle height, leaving you with a net increase in saddle to bar drop, hence the "lower" position. With your 8mm increase in bar height, you're left with a 2mm increase in saddle to bar drop compared to your set up now.

You can use the stem calculator to also play with seat adjustments. If you're going to keep the saddle clamped in the same position on the post, then adjust the stem values for extension and angle to "0". For height, input the change in saddle height. You can do this by setting RED to "0" and the blue to your increase, or set the red and blue to any numbers that give you your desired differential. Lets use a bike with a 73* seat tube. For an increase of 30mm inline with the seat tube, you get a 29mm vertical increase, and 9mm of increased set back.

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Old 12-04-18, 08:00 PM
  #100  
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Originally Posted by taras0000 View Post
I noticed you already ordered your parts. I'll just clarify the point I was making. You mentioned that your saddle was 1.5 cm too low. You said you were going to readjust it by moving it up 1 cm. The increase in bar height is going to be less than the increase in saddle height, leaving you with a net increase in saddle to bar drop, hence the "lower" position. With your 8mm increase in bar height, you're left with a 2mm increase in saddle to bar drop compared to your set up now.


You can use the stem calculator to also play with seat adjustments. If you're going to keep the saddle clamped in the same position on the post, then adjust the stem values for extension and angle to "0". For height, input the change in saddle height. You can do this by setting RED to "0" and the blue to your increase, or set the red and blue to any numbers that give you your desired differential. Lets use a bike with a 73* seat tube. For an increase of 30mm inline with the seat tube, you get a 29mm vertical increase, and 9mm of increased set back.



Fun stuff! I'm tracking you know. I originally had an absolute increase in my stem height, but given the absolute increase of saddle height, my stem was being lowered, relative to saddle height. :-)


Unfortunately, I wish that 1.5mm increase in my saddle was more than an estimate. I moved it to my correct fitting height before Carleton suggested I go with a 130mm stem. At this point, since I am getting new bars as well, I am sort of starting from scratch, almost.


But to finish out the thought process, assuming I did raise my seat 1.5cm and given the flipped 100m +/-6 stem I have on it now, if I put this EC90 130mm +/- 0 stem on my bike, my stem is lowering 2mm (based on the calculator), and this is on top of it already being relatively lower based on the 1.5cm saddle height increase. So I believe that be a relative stem lowering of 1.7cm. I might be able to handle it. I would need a 130m stem that is almost +/- 9, which would increase the stem heigh by 1.7mm to create a net zero change in height. A 130mm stem angled up at 8-9 degrees is going to look bizarre! Maybe not. I'll see. I'm just going to wait until I get the new bars and stem on, then see how it all feels. If need be I'll put a spacer in.
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