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DIY Bike Fitting for Track

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Old 12-04-18, 08:13 PM
  #101  
carleton
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Originally Posted by krispenhartung View Post
...

Unfortunately, I wish that 1.5mm increase in my saddle was more than an estimate. I moved it to my correct fitting height before Carleton suggested I go with a 130mm stem. At this point, since I am getting new bars as well, I am sort of starting from scratch, almost.

...
For the test where you use the 130mm stem, please use the bars used in the photo above.

When testing, it's easier to just change 1 thing at a time to see how things are working out.
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Old 12-04-18, 08:54 PM
  #102  
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Originally Posted by krispenhartung View Post
. A 130mm stem angled up at 8-9 degrees is going to look bizarre! Maybe not. I'll see. I'm just going to wait until I get the new bars and stem on, then see how it all feels. If need be I'll put a spacer in.
Or you can run a level stem with a stack of spacers like this guy
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Old 12-04-18, 09:13 PM
  #103  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
For the test where you use the 130mm stem, please use the bars used in the photo above.

When testing, it's easier to just change 1 thing at a time to see how things are working out.
Sure thing :-) In fact, to simply things even more, I'm putting the same model of stem on it, same degrees, just 130mm. It lifts the bars 1.1cm, which is close enough for me to the approx. 1.5 saddle height increase. Almost a wash.
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Old 12-04-18, 09:19 PM
  #104  
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Originally Posted by taras0000 View Post
Or you can run a level stem with a stack of spacers like this guy
Yup, that is what I would normally do; however, I also use this bike for TTs, and so the stem I use on my TT bars is slammed as far down as possible, to get me to my preferred aero position, given the the stack on my bars. So I have no choice but to use an inverted stem to get my drop bars up. Apparently, this is not uncommon. I was talking to few other folks at my last race who had a similar setup.
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Old 12-04-18, 09:34 PM
  #105  
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A stem with rise is a stiffer set up than running a level stem with a stack of spacers. More direct, less material, fewer interfaces that allow flex.
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Old 12-04-18, 09:36 PM
  #106  
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Originally Posted by taras0000 View Post
A stem with rise is a stiffer set up than running a level stem with a stack of spacers. More direct, less material, fewer interfaces that allow flex.
What a relief...and beats having to buy a new, original length fork/steerer tube!
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Old 12-05-18, 07:35 AM
  #107  
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Originally Posted by taras0000 View Post
A stem with rise is a stiffer set up than running a level stem with a stack of spacers. More direct, less material, fewer interfaces that allow flex.
This is why I went with a 0-degree stem. Yes, it looks like it slops up, but it allows me to remove about 10mm of spacers.
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Old 12-05-18, 07:37 AM
  #108  
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Also, Krispen, why are you swapping out bars?
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Old 12-05-18, 09:53 AM
  #109  
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Originally Posted by topflightpro View Post
Also, Krispen, why are you swapping out bars?
Funny you should ask! :-) Well, I really do love the Scattos, so that's not the issue. Someone else above, can't recall who at the moment, sort of brought this up, regarding being able to get into the mantis position, handoffs, etc. I will likely start doing Madisons this coming season, if I can find a willing partner. I'm just looking for a bit more usable real estate in the upper bars, whereas the Scattos are sloped so aggressively that it's difficult. Plus, I'm still a new track racer coming from the road so there is the familiarity factor. I'm still keeping the bars narrow though. I am so into that now that I may even consider narrowing my road bike bars. I am not selling my Scattos. I am just opening up some options to be able to go back and forth. I will be trying out two sets of bars: 3T Aeronova LTD Stealth (40cm) and the Easton EC90 Aero (40cm)....slight differences in design, but nothing major.
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Old 12-05-18, 10:34 AM
  #110  
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The Mantis...err...Sphinx position is not required to excel in the Madison.

The Madison is already organized chaos. Add the fact that you are new-ish to the Madison, you might be racing with a mixed bag of experience in your local Madisons, etc...I honestly wouldn’t focus on the Sphinx position. It’s not gonna be the difference between winning and losing.

The level of comfort with the bike, track, race, and field has to be all 10/10 for the Sphinx to work well. Outside of that, you have bigger fish to fry

Last edited by carleton; 12-05-18 at 11:04 AM.
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Old 12-05-18, 10:44 AM
  #111  
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Sphinx - Meyer
Mantis - Landis


Last edited by Morelock; 12-05-18 at 10:56 AM.
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Old 12-05-18, 11:03 AM
  #112  
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Originally Posted by Morelock View Post
Sphinx - Meyer
Mantis - Landis

You know...I literally thought about the position when typing. And I thought, "Well, maybe they are calling it 'Mantis' now..."

Yes, Sphinx.

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Old 12-05-18, 11:18 AM
  #113  
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I did some testing with a few athletes (road) a year or two ago, Sphinx was faster than hoods for everyone, but when it got into drops it got a lot closer. One athlete was faster in the drops than Sphinx (although he was the most aggressive in the drops... elbows bent closer to 90 - so really just a lower sphinx position.) For track, if you could get the bars in a position where it was semi-comfy to have that position in the drops (probably would require raising the bars actually and holding them higher into the bend of the bar) it would definitely be "safer" and maybe just as aero.
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Old 12-05-18, 01:05 PM
  #114  
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Originally Posted by Morelock View Post
I did some testing with a few athletes (road) a year or two ago, Sphinx was faster than hoods for everyone, but when it got into drops it got a lot closer. One athlete was faster in the drops than Sphinx (although he was the most aggressive in the drops... elbows bent closer to 90 - so really just a lower sphinx position.) For track, if you could get the bars in a position where it was semi-comfy to have that position in the drops (probably would require raising the bars actually and holding them higher into the bend of the bar) it would definitely be "safer" and maybe just as aero.
EXACTLY.

Note how a few of the British sprinters setup their bikes. Their arms were really extended forward with elbows kinda straight "piercing the air". However Kenny had a more traditional bent elbow approach.

I really believe that, as you assert, a lot of gains can be made using drop bars that are configured properly.

Anecdotally: I matched my PB Kilo time (set using aero bars and during a peak for Nationals) when using 33cm Alpina bars during a normal (non-peak) weekly TT session. I didn't plan on riding the Kilo that day and didn't bring my aerobars. But, I was like, "What the hell...I need the work anyway!" and did it for the exercise. I was surprised.

And I've mentioned this before, Sky Christopherson won the Masters Worlds Kilo using 35cm Scattos a few years ago when most (all?) other contenders were using aerobars. I know Sky isn't a normal human (he was an Olympian in the 90s). But, it does illustrate that drops can be fast...when setup properly.
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Old 12-05-18, 01:07 PM
  #115  
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Personally, I don't see the Sphinx as being a faster position than drops. I think the more aggressive Sphinx position with the hands on the "tops" as opposed to where the hoods would be, is more of a relaxing position, taking stress off of the arms, shoulders, and neck and lowering the heart rate a bit.

That position may be illegal now, though, per the UCI.

EDIT:

This may be illegal:
(I know this guy is using clip-on aerobars. But just imagine him resting his arms on the "tops" without the clipons. I can't find a pic of a person doing that, so this is close for illustration purposes)


I think this is still legal (and I think this is @queerpunk / queerpunk):

Last edited by carleton; 12-05-18 at 01:13 PM.
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Old 12-05-18, 01:22 PM
  #116  
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Obree did some work on this when he fancied the Merckx hour record (eventually he decided this position was unsustainable for an hour)
Honestly, it's tough to think you could come up with a lot more slippery position in drops, but the practicality of it (If I'm remembering correctly it required a custom bike with a long TT, very short drops - and obviously as soon as you sat up closer to a normal track position it would probably look terrible) probably makes up a large part of why it is an odd sight.


@carleton Narrow is (still) aero
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Old 12-05-18, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Morelock View Post
Obree did some work on this when he fancied the Merckx hour record (eventually he decided this position was unsustainable for an hour)
Honestly, it's tough to think you could come up with a lot more slippery position in drops, but the practicality of it (If I'm remembering correctly it required a custom bike with a long TT, very short drops - and obviously as soon as you sat up closer to a normal track position it would probably look terrible) probably makes up a large part of why it is an odd sight.


@carleton Narrow is (still) aero
Yup.

I see sprinters now going for "long and moderately high" instead of "as low as possible" with their fits. Even fast Masters. That may be testing faster. I think this is also driving the need for longer top tubes. Notice how Felt only had a max 57cm TK1 for years...now they offer the 3cm longer 60cm.
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Old 12-05-18, 03:37 PM
  #118  
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BTW, Hoy was the first top sprinter that I ever saw using super narrow bars.

I don't think that this is a coincidence:



Both are Scots and I've heard Hoy speak favorably of Obree. It would be a safe assumption that Obree influenced the Team GB move to super narrow bars.

For example,

Hoy was riding these (I think) 34cm Nitto B123:




While his teammate Craig Maclean was riding these (I think) 38 or 40cm Nitto B123:


Other teammate Jamie Staff also on 38 or 40cm Nittos:



Edit 2:

I mean, even steel is fine...as long as they are narrow


Last edited by carleton; 12-05-18 at 03:50 PM.
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Old 12-05-18, 03:52 PM
  #119  
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After that, they wanted carbon.

And Alpina made some for them.

Here are the first 33cm Alpina sprint bars (unbranded):




They are essentially carbon versions of the 34cm Nitto B123 in terms of reach and drop.


I'm not saying that Hoy started all of this...but he was an early adopter.
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Old 12-05-18, 05:27 PM
  #120  
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Jeesh, I left the forum for 18 hours and now there is an encyclopedia of information and images on narrow drop bars! Nice! :-)
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Old 12-06-18, 06:58 AM
  #121  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
Sphinx position

I think this is still legal
Will depend on the level of competition and interpretation of the rules by the commissaires. Except holding on to the top of the bars for changeovers in the Madison, many commissaires will require you to hold the drops only.*

*From my experience
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Old 12-06-18, 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
I'm not saying that Hoy started all of this...but he was an early adopter.
I've heard Perko mention picking up narrow bars very early from Japan when he was new to our team, could be close to the earliest. Aziz Awang had narrow nittos a long time ago as well
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Old 12-07-18, 12:52 AM
  #123  
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Originally Posted by pierrej View Post
I've heard Perko mention picking up narrow bars very early from Japan when he was new to our team, could be close to the earliest. Aziz Awang had narrow nittos a long time ago as well
Interesting!

Here is Awang in 2012 (33cm Alpinas and Scattos were out by then), but he's still rocking the 34cm Nittos. Maybe there are pics of him in 2011 or 2010 out there.

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Old 12-07-18, 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
Interesting!

Here is Awang in 2012 (33cm Alpinas and Scattos were out by then), but he's still rocking the 34cm Nittos. Maybe there are pics of him in 2011 or 2010 out there.

Yeah not sure when he started using them, did scatto's and alpinas came out ~2011 or so?
I think Perkins went to Japan for the first time in 2009 and noticed it about then, lots of the Keirin bikes at the time were 35-38cm
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Old 12-08-18, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
For the test where you use the 130mm stem, please use the bars used in the photo above.

When testing, it's easier to just change 1 thing at a time to see how things are working out.
Here's the new 130mm stem....it doesn't look at extreme as I thought it would, and still well within the 50mm UCI regulation for endurance. The distance between the forward most tip of my bars and the vertical axle plane is approx. 45mm. Later today I will be shooting new video and taking measurements based on this change and the saddle height change. Should be interesting!

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