carleton

For the test where you use the 130mm stem, please use the bars used in the photo above.

When testing, it's easier to just change 1 thing at a time to see how things are working out.

taras0000

Or you can run a level stem with a stack of spacers like this guy

krispenhartung

Sure thing :-) In fact, to simply things even more, I'm putting the same model of stem on it, same degrees, just 130mm. It lifts the bars 1.1cm, which is close enough for me to the approx. 1.5 saddle height increase. Almost a wash.

krispenhartung

Yup, that is what I would normally do; however, I also use this bike for TTs, and so the stem I use on my TT bars is slammed as far down as possible, to get me to my preferred aero position, given the the stack on my bars. So I have no choice but to use an inverted stem to get my drop bars up. Apparently, this is not uncommon. I was talking to few other folks at my last race who had a similar setup.

taras0000

A stem with rise is a stiffer set up than running a level stem with a stack of spacers. More direct, less material, fewer interfaces that allow flex.

krispenhartung

What a relief...and beats having to buy a new, original length fork/steerer tube!

topflightpro

This is why I went with a 0-degree stem. Yes, it looks like it slops up, but it allows me to remove about 10mm of spacers.

topflightpro

Also, Krispen, why are you swapping out bars?

krispenhartung

Funny you should ask! :-) Well, I really do love the Scattos, so that's not the issue. Someone else above, can't recall who at the moment, sort of brought this up, regarding being able to get into the mantis position, handoffs, etc. I will likely start doing Madisons this coming season, if I can find a willing partner. I'm just looking for a bit more usable real estate in the upper bars, whereas the Scattos are sloped so aggressively that it's difficult. Plus, I'm still a new track racer coming from the road so there is the familiarity factor. I'm still keeping the bars narrow though. I am so into that now that I may even consider narrowing my road bike bars. I am not selling my Scattos. I am just opening up some options to be able to go back and forth. I will be trying out two sets of bars: 3T Aeronova LTD Stealth (40cm) and the Easton EC90 Aero (40cm)....slight differences in design, but nothing major.

carleton

Morelock

Sphinx - Meyer
Mantis - Landis

carleton

You know...I literally thought about the position when typing. And I thought, "Well, maybe they are calling it 'Mantis' now..."

Yes, Sphinx.

Morelock

I did some testing with a few athletes (road) a year or two ago, Sphinx was faster than hoods for everyone, but when it got into drops it got a lot closer. One athlete was faster in the drops than Sphinx (although he was the most aggressive in the drops... elbows bent closer to 90° - so really just a lower sphinx position.) For track, if you could get the bars in a position where it was semi-comfy to have that position in the drops (probably would require raising the bars actually and holding them higher into the bend of the bar) it would definitely be "safer" and maybe just as aero.

carleton

EXACTLY.

Note how a few of the British sprinters setup their bikes. Their arms were really extended forward with elbows kinda straight "piercing the air". However Kenny had a more traditional bent elbow approach.

I really believe that, as you assert, a lot of gains can be made using drop bars that are configured properly.

Anecdotally: I matched my PB Kilo time (set using aero bars and during a peak for Nationals) when using 33cm Alpina bars during a normal (non-peak) weekly TT session. I didn't plan on riding the Kilo that day and didn't bring my aerobars. But, I was like, "What the hell...I need the work anyway!" and did it for the exercise. I was surprised.

And I've mentioned this before, Sky Christopherson won the Masters Worlds Kilo using 35cm Scattos a few years ago when most (all?) other contenders were using aerobars. I know Sky isn't a normal human (he was an Olympian in the 90s). But, it does illustrate that drops can be fast...when setup properly.

carleton

Personally, I don't see the Sphinx as being a faster position than drops. I think the more aggressive Sphinx position with the hands on the "tops" as opposed to where the hoods would be, is more of a relaxing position, taking stress off of the arms, shoulders, and neck and lowering the heart rate a bit.

That position may be illegal now, though, per the UCI.

EDIT:

This may be illegal:
(I know this guy is using clip-on aerobars. But just imagine him resting his arms on the "tops" without the clipons. I can't find a pic of a person doing that, so this is close for illustration purposes)


I think this is still legal (and I think this is @queerpunk / queerpunk):

Morelock

Obree did some work on this when he fancied the Merckx hour record (eventually he decided this position was unsustainable for an hour)
Honestly, it's tough to think you could come up with a lot more slippery position in drops, but the practicality of it (If I'm remembering correctly it required a custom bike with a long TT, very short drops - and obviously as soon as you sat up closer to a normal track position it would probably look terrible) probably makes up a large part of why it is an odd sight.


@carleton Narrow is (still) aero

carleton

Yup.

I see sprinters now going for "long and moderately high" instead of "as low as possible" with their fits. Even fast Masters. That may be testing faster. I think this is also driving the need for longer top tubes. Notice how Felt only had a max 57cm TK1 for years...now they offer the 3cm longer 60cm.

carleton

BTW, Hoy was the first top sprinter that I ever saw using super narrow bars.

I don't think that this is a coincidence:



Both are Scots and I've heard Hoy speak favorably of Obree. It would be a safe assumption that Obree influenced the Team GB move to super narrow bars.

For example,

Hoy was riding these (I think) 34cm Nitto B123:




While his teammate Craig Maclean was riding these (I think) 38 or 40cm Nitto B123:


Other teammate Jamie Staff also on 38 or 40cm Nittos:



Edit 2:

I mean, even steel is fine...as long as they are narrow

carleton

After that, they wanted carbon.

And Alpina made some for them.

Here are the first 33cm Alpina sprint bars (unbranded):




They are essentially carbon versions of the 34cm Nitto B123 in terms of reach and drop.


I'm not saying that Hoy started all of this...but he was an early adopter.

krispenhartung

Jeesh, I left the forum for 18 hours and now there is an encyclopedia of information and images on narrow drop bars! Nice! :-)

Dalai

Will depend on the level of competition and interpretation of the rules by the commissaires. Except holding on to the top of the bars for changeovers in the Madison, many commissaires will require you to hold the drops only.*

*From my experience

pierrej

I've heard Perko mention picking up narrow bars very early from Japan when he was new to our team, could be close to the earliest. Aziz Awang had narrow nittos a long time ago as well

carleton

Interesting!

Here is Awang in 2012 (33cm Alpinas and Scattos were out by then), but he's still rocking the 34cm Nittos. Maybe there are pics of him in 2011 or 2010 out there.

pierrej

Yeah not sure when he started using them, did scatto's and alpinas came out ~2011 or so?
I think Perkins went to Japan for the first time in 2009 and noticed it about then, lots of the Keirin bikes at the time were 35-38cm

krispenhartung

Here's the new 130mm stem....it doesn't look at extreme as I thought it would, and still well within the 50mm UCI regulation for endurance. The distance between the forward most tip of my bars and the vertical axle plane is approx. 45mm. Later today I will be shooting new video and taking measurements based on this change and the saddle height change. Should be interesting!