carleton

So far, so good!

taras0000

Judging from the looks of it, the heels of your hands will be right over your front hub. This places your forward weight right over the front axle giving you a more neutral steering feel. If your hands were further back before, it will actually slow your steering down a bit, so be prepared for that, but things will be more stable for you at speed because of it.

krispenhartung

Ok, here are the results. This feels really good! Carleton, you are a genius! :-) I don't even think I want to swap the bars out now. This is also with the saddle raised approx. 1.5cm. i don't think I can get any higher without my hips starting to rock a bit and put too much pressure on my soft parts.

Slow-Mo video here showing the full pedal stroke: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1LN...kweyQEChXiZ3_L

carleton

krispenhartung

Yup! Thank you! I will be making similar changes to my back up track bike, which I use mainly for training, but using some 40cm Easton drop bars instead of the Scattos --- mainly because I am using this bike on my trainer most of the time and I'd like a more comfortable bar for 60-90 min rides. The Scattos get draining after an hour.

Baby Puke

Probably could still go a bit longer...

carleton

carleton

krispenhartung

I need strong arms for all the crap that I attempt to carry in a single load to the infield (without a wagon, mind you!) -- bike, extra wheels, rollers, gear bag. I look like a vagabond.
Seriously though, being used to the road, I'm going to sit on this new setup for a while and let it burn in. Right now, I don't do any matched sprints, flying 200, etc -- just the endurance events, Keirin, and 500m on my drops. I do the 2K with a whole different setup.

pierrej

Its definitely more weight on the butt than the hands, effectively should be able to take your hands off the bars and not lurch forward, and track only has to be comfortable for a minute or so if we're talking sprint

carleton

pierrej

Watching the video I reckon you can probably come forward a bit with your saddle, as everyone finds out you can probably go for a fair bit bigger bike than you think.

Bad comparison aside, your torso angle isn't drastically different than my resting in the drops roadie position, a bit longer/higher but not as extreme as you will be able to hold for pure track work

Kaben

queerpunk

Heh, yup, that's me.

Faster? It depends. I've done a bit of rough testing for me, personally, and it tests faster than riding in the drops. This is not the case for everybody. Not everybody needs or wants this, or is good at it, or has the physiology, riding style, or flexibility for it. That's okay. I've seen some terrible sphinx positions out there that make me cringe, but hey, there are plenty of drops positions out there that make me cringe too.

I find the sphinx to be a way to combine high cadence and output pedaling with a relaxed upper body. It's a wide-elbow pursuit position. Unlike sprinters, our enduro races aren't just the length of a half decent yawn. In 40km, we pedal in a lot of different ways - and there are a lot of dynamic needs on the bike. Setting up handlebars is all about balancing different needs; the drops need to be an a position that optimize a sprint, and cruising, and we also need a position to accommodate moments in races when we are essentially pursuiting.

I could set up drop bars that mimic my sphinx position but then I'd miss out on the lower, torquier position and the greater stability that comes with where I put the bottoms of my drops. I have daydreamt and sketched the perfect enduro handlebar - nobody makes it. Nobody comes close.

carleton

That position looks fast as hell...especially if you train yourself to (safely) drop your head* on the straights for extra significant aero gains.

*This is an advanced technique that I'd only advise using on a track that with which you are completely familiar and with the best of judgement. You can see top riders doing it all the time when you look for it.

(this is not a bike throw):





Be very careful trying this...turns 1 and 3 can come up very fast on you at high speeds and you can run up track and maybe wreck and take others out. It requires lots of practice. I never got good at it such that it became habit. My head was in the wind like a dog out of the passenger-side window...floppy tongue and all

Great insights there.

carleton

I recall Gleatzer riding one of his sub-1min kilos almost 100% with his head down. He swerved like a drunk man in the turns, but it was obvious that keeping the head down as soon as possible through the end was the plan. He didn't look up, only at the boards in front of his wheel.

I would guess that he counted pedal strokes or looked at some marker to know when to expect the turns. Not sure.

m@tty

I’m in the market for a new frame and thinking of going longer.
Im not a Sprinter though scratch, points, pursuit.
what’s the general opinion. This was with resistance probable around 300-350 Watts.

bicievino

If I were you I'd see about trying out a longer stem before buying a new frame, even if it puts you over the +5cm UCI rule. (are you subject to the UCI geometry rules in your racing? If not, you could maybe make this frame work, although the handling will start getting strange after a certain point)
I agree that you appear "scrunched up" to me, even for a mass start position.
You certainly have stack-height room to go to a larger frame.

m@tty

im already on 120mm and 80mm reach bars even with a new frame with a longer top tube I was considering a 130mm stem and moving from 36 c to c bars to 33 c to c

bicievino

I mean, reach is reach, right? It doesn't particularly matter how you get there (except insofar as it pertains to UCI geometry restrictions and at some point, handling). Up to 150mm stems are pretty easy to find, so you could test that out pretty cheaply.

m@tty

UCI restrictions would matter for masters. Hence the question about frames not stem length and I’m hard pushed to find anything over 130mm in the uk

bicievino

Right, sorry if I was unclear.
I wasn't suggesting that be a long-term solution, just one that would help you determine how much reach might be best for you, so you aren't buying a frame and then realizing you needed even more reach than you had thought...

For what it's worth, the Zipp service course SL is available in up to 150mm.

topflightpro

3T also offers stems up to 150.

That said, yeah, I think you should go with a longer and taller frame.

Morelock

I've been told bigger is better

carpediemracing 

One thing about the Dolan frames is that until you get to their biggest frame, the head tube doesn't really increase in height. So my 57 cm frame still has a 12 cm head tube, which is the same height head tube I have on my road bike. Seat tube happens to be 50 cm c-t as well.

This means you can size up substantially without the frame getting taller. It just gets longer.

My preferred seat tube length is 40 cm, yes forty, I want an effective top tube length of 56.5 cm with a 75.5 deg STA - that's how my two road bikes are set up. For track I have a stock 57 cm Dolan. 50 cm c-t, 12 cm head tube, 57 cm top tube. Perfect. Except the STA is only 74.5 so my saddle is further back than I want, and the reach, once I'm "on the rivet", is a bit short.