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Look CR564P vs Dolan DF4

Old 07-11-17, 02:28 PM
  #1  
bartek. 
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Look CR564P vs Dolan DF4

Hi,

I want to upgrade my aluminium frame to the carbon. My budget is quite flexible but only for reasonable arguments ;-) First of all, I am NOT a sprinter (the aero seatpost shouldn't be an issue). At least not massive enough even if I like it. I race endurance (especially scratch and elimination races) and time trials such as 1km or team 4km. Basically, we don't have too much track races in our country so I race what we get ;-)

Ok, so basically I believe Dolan DF4 is a great value for the money. However, I really like the Look frame (I love this color design haha), I know it's Axman but still can't find any valuable information/reviews about the frame.
Anyone can say a word? Or it's definitely worse than the DF4?


PS. There is some other track frames in the price range, e.g. Fuji Oval. I am open for comments
EDIT:
My current frames and setups after fitting:

Pinarello Dogma F8 size 53:
stem: 110mm -6 degree
saddle height: 74.6
drop: 11
reach (from saddle nose to the end of stem): 51.5
crank length: 172.5

Cinelli Mash Histogram 2013 size 55 (google for: cinelli mash histogram 2013 geometry as i am not allowed to post URLs):
stem: 90 -6
saddle height: 73.5
drop: 13
reach (from saddle nose to the end of stem): 51
crank length: 170

for aerobars:
stem: 80 +6
saddle height: 76.1
drop to pad center: 9.6
reach (from saddle nose to the end of stem): 55.1

Last edited by bartek.; 07-11-17 at 03:06 PM.
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Old 07-11-17, 06:34 PM
  #2  
taras0000
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Look at the Axman instead of the LOOK. They have a great reputation. Why pay for a LOOK pricetag when they don't even make the frame?
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Old 07-11-17, 06:49 PM
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Originally Posted by taras0000 View Post
Look at the Axman instead of the LOOK. They have a great reputation.
I barely can find any words about the Axman. Looks like top secret information for me ;/
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Old 07-11-17, 08:33 PM
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Originally Posted by bartek. View Post
I want to upgrade my aluminium frame to the carbon.
Spend money to solve specific problems.

What are looking to upgrade?

- Your fit? (bigger/smaller frame)
- Aerodynamics? (lower head tube, aero tubing)
- Strength? (stiffer rear triangle)
- Handling? (angles, offsets)
- Features? (integrated chain tensioners, longer dropouts)
- Color?

It's cool to simply want something different. Trust me. That fuels most of my equipment purchases

Originally Posted by bartek. View Post
First of all, I am NOT a sprinter (the aero seatpost shouldn't be an issue). At least not massive enough even if I like it. I race endurance (especially scratch and elimination races) and time trials such as 1km or team 4km.
Even average or small riders can have seatpost issues. I recall helping a smaller masters woman with her Serenity seatpost clamp issues at TTown one afternoon. One of the average sized riders at DLV broke several Specialized saddles one season. He loved the fit of the saddle. He'd break one every 2 weeks or so and kept doing a warranty swap until he got tired of going back to the shop to do so. He also had issues with his 2009 or 2010 Fuji Track Pro seatpost topper slipping and tilting.

When you hit a bump in a track, all of your weight can be multiplied if your weight is all on your butt (as opposed to some being on the pedals).

The DF4 has a known issue with the dropouts spreading. I saw a bike with that issue last weekend in person.

Last edited by carleton; 07-12-17 at 08:56 AM.
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Old 07-12-17, 06:11 AM
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I always figured that Dolan trackends spread because the trackends are cantilevered back from the seatstays, so any downward force on the axle (e.g., a rider's weight - plus any bumpy terrain) becomes upward force on the unsupported upper arm of the trackend.
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Old 07-12-17, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by queerpunk View Post
I always figured that Dolan trackends spread because the trackends are cantilevered back from the seatstays, so any downward force on the axle (e.g., a rider's weight - plus any bumpy terrain) becomes upward force on the unsupported upper arm of the trackend.
You are probably right. I thought that it was from tightening so much with all of the acute force of the nut. But, your suggestion makes more sense.
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Old 07-12-17, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
Spend money to solve specific problems.

What are looking to upgrade?

- Your fit? (bigger/smaller frame)
- Aerodynamics? (lower head tube, aero tubing)
- Strength? (stiffer rear triangle)
- Handling? (angles, offsets)
- Features? (integrated chain tensioners, longer dropouts)
- Color?

It's cool to simply want something different. Trust me. That fuels most of my equipment purchases
Ah, you are right. I didn't make a statement about this
So, the thing is that my current track bike is also my crit races bike and commuting (from time to time). This means that it can be involved in some crashes (I'm writing to you with broken collarbone and rear HED Stinger 6 after the last crash in the crit). This also means that my current fitting is now that agressive as it could be for the track. I mean, it's almost but. Crashes, riding on the streets etc. can involve some malfunctions such as bended crankarm, broken frame etc.

I basically want to have a "track only" bike that will be never ridden on the street. This is the main thing. The other is stiffness. The frame is pretty nice for aluminium (I struggle a lot on alu road bike with soft rear triangle). However, I like stiffness of carbon frames. Long dropouts is a plus. I ride on front and rear FFWD discs and PRO 4-rays front baton. Mavic iO is on the way

Originally Posted by carleton View Post
Even average or small riders can have seatpost issues. I recall helping a smaller masters woman with her Serenity seatpost clamp issues at TTown one afternoon. One of the average sized riders at DLV broke several Specialized saddles one season. He loved the fit of the saddle. He'd break one every 2 weeks or so and kept doing a warranty swap until he got tired of going back to the shop to do so. He also had issues with his 2009 or 2010 Fuji Track Pro seatpost topper slipping and tilting.

When you hit a bump in a track, all of your weight can be multiplied if your weight is all on your butt (as opposed to some being on the pedals).
I have aero seatpost in Pinarello Dogma F8 that is used on different conditions with some bunnyhops if needed etc. No problem at all. I have a sticker on the seatpost and verify every few weeks. No issues. The other thing is that 95% of time I ride on indoor wooden velodrome Smooth as butter.

Originally Posted by carleton View Post
The DF4 has a known issue with the dropouts spreading. I saw a bike with that issue last weekend in person.
You mean that metal part that can be replaced? I have the same issue in my current frame. I believe I use too much strength for bolts. However same thing happen to some my friends. If this is an issue, it's not a big deal IMHO.

Last edited by bartek.; 07-12-17 at 01:24 PM.
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Old 07-12-17, 04:16 PM
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However, I like stiffness of carbon frames.
"All carbon frames are super stiff" is a myth. This is not true. Steel, aluminum, and carbon frames are all made with varying degrees of stiffness...or mushyness. Carbon can be made to be flexible or stiff depending on the details of the fiber, resin, layup (ordering of the carbon) and whatnot. There are carbon track frames on the market now that are not as stiff as they look. It's easy to make a frame look beastly. It's a different story to make it actually beastly.

Bike manufacturers love for us to believe that all carbon is awesome. Because when we think something is awesome, we pay more money for it.

I have aero seatpost in Pinarello Dogma F8 that is used on different conditions with some bunnyhops if needed etc. No problem at all.
I had an aero seatpost on my LOOK 496 and it didn't slip under my big butt That being said, lighter riders than me have had issues with aero seatposts slipping. It's a function of design and/or quality control.

You know how you order something online and you see reviews like:
5 stars
5 stars
5 stars
1 star
5 stars
1 star
1 star

Guess what? Those 5 star people can't believe that the 1 star people are really having issues. And, the 1 star people are pissed that they spent so much money on a thing that supposedly was a 5 star product.

Not all aero seatposts slip. Not all DF4 seatposts slip. But, a lot of them do...under riders of all sizes.

You mean that metal part that can be replaced?
No. Not the plates. I don't think the DF4 uses replaceable plates (I can't recall).

If you look at the dropouts from the side of the bike, they should be parallel. Take your fingers and make "scissors" with them. When the scissors are closed, that's what the dropouts should look like. Open the "scissors" slightly and that's what's happening to them. They are spreading apart vertically, more so at the end of the frame.
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Old 07-13-17, 10:40 AM
  #9  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
"All carbon frames are super stiff" is a myth. This is not true. Steel, aluminum, and carbon frames are all made with varying degrees of stiffness...or mushyness. Carbon can be made to be flexible or stiff depending on the details of the fiber, resin, layup (ordering of the carbon) and whatnot. There are carbon track frames on the market now that are not as stiff as they look. It's easy to make a frame look beastly. It's a different story to make it actually beastly.

Bike manufacturers love for us to believe that all carbon is awesome. Because when we think something is awesome, we pay more money for it.
Yes, I totally agree with you. This is way I asked about specific frames such as Dolan DF4 and Look CR564P. Which one would be better or maybe there is anything better it this price range?

Originally Posted by carleton View Post
I had an aero seatpost on my LOOK 496 and it didn't slip under my big butt That being said, lighter riders than me have had issues with aero seatposts slipping. It's a function of design and/or quality control.
Got it. I can live with it, as I said 95% of time I ride on wooden surface. I doubt it's a big issue as I can verify it through some stickers on the seatpost.

Originally Posted by carleton View Post
No. Not the plates. I don't think the DF4 uses replaceable plates (I can't recall).

If you look at the dropouts from the side of the bike, they should be parallel. Take your fingers and make "scissors" with them. When the scissors are closed, that's what the dropouts should look like. Open the "scissors" slightly and that's what's happening to them. They are spreading apart vertically, more so at the end of the frame.
Hmmm I am not sure if I visualized it properly. What is a post issue impact? Do I need to repair it somehow? Does it make the frame unusable anymore or less stiff, worse handling?


Anyway, so far I heard about 2 issues for Dolan DF4:
- slipping seatpost
- spreading dropouts

About Look CR564P there is also 2 but....:
- it's more expensive than similar Axman (but still no information about Axman)
- it has an areo seatpost too, so slipping possibly (not confirmed)

Last edited by bartek.; 07-13-17 at 10:44 AM.
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Old 07-13-17, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by bartek. View Post
Hmmm I am not sure if I visualized it properly.
Did you use your fingers?

Originally Posted by bartek. View Post
What is a post issue impact?
When the axle is at the very end of the dropout, it contacts less surface of the dropout than normal. If they stayed parallel, then the contact area would be uniform.
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Old 09-25-17, 11:18 AM
  #11  
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@carleton - I have no idea why I couldn't imagine it before but sure your description is pretty clear

Anyway, I have finished a deep search about Axman and funny thing is that actually the only information about Axman I found is that they do OEM stuff e.g. for Look. And about Look CR 564P that it's the same as Axman. But not any useful information about any of them

So, once again anyone can leave some comments about carbon/stiffness/issues and profile of geometry about Axman/CR564P?
Anyone from the forum has ever made at least a ride on this frame? I am looking for comparison especially to Dolan DF4. There is no other frameset that I know in this price range anyway. Cervelo T4 is a bit more expensive and I think it's more TT-oriented. I am not enough experience in understanding the geometry charts to compare Look and Dolan tough.

The CR564P is already discontinued but I still have a possibility to get one. Last chance
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Old 09-25-17, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by bartek. View Post
@carleton - I have no idea why I couldn't imagine it before but sure your description is pretty clear

Anyway, I have finished a deep search about Axman and funny thing is that actually the only information about Axman I found is that they do OEM stuff e.g. for Look. And about Look CR 564P that it's the same as Axman. But not any useful information about any of them

So, once again anyone can leave some comments about carbon/stiffness/issues and profile of geometry about Axman/CR564P?
Anyone from the forum has ever made at least a ride on this frame? I am looking for comparison especially to Dolan DF4. There is no other frameset that I know in this price range anyway. Cervelo T4 is a bit more expensive and I think it's more TT-oriented. I am not enough experience in understanding the geometry charts to compare Look and Dolan tough.

The CR564P is already discontinued but I still have a possibility to get one. Last chance
If you are looking for affordable carbon frame, you could buy Dixie Flyer or 7vrn(you can cheaper ones on eBay)
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Old 09-25-17, 12:32 PM
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Looks like LOOK is retiring the CR564P in favor of the 875 Madison

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Old 09-25-17, 04:52 PM
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I have seen speculation that Look may have purchased the mold for the Axman sprint bike. It seems fairly coincidental that once the Look hit the market that the stock of other sources of the frame have pretty much dried up and the bike was no longer listed on the Axman page.

If you're US based look at the Dixie, or go to the source for that 7VRN frame fixed gear carbon track bike frame and seatpost single speed bicycle frame | eBay
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Old 09-25-17, 05:30 PM
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I live in Eastern Europe, so my market is a bit more limited and basically with 3 options available: Dolan DF4, Look CR564P and Cervelo T4 (which is a bit more pricey but ekhm). Honestly, I don't understand why all words go just around the main topic :-) I strictly limited possible options and asked about any information about the Axman/Look frame, especially in comparision to the Dolan DF4.

As track cycling has limited market compared to other disciplines, I believe this kind of comparision should be already done more than 10 times. I don't understand why Google shows no results. I mean, come on, it should be one of this yet another dolan/look topic like every month somewhere on the Internet ;-)
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Old 09-25-17, 06:14 PM
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A bunch of people in Japan have the Look CR564P and seem to be pretty happy with it. A bunch of my friends in the US have the DF4 and like it, but a good many have had problems with the seat post slipping, clamp breaking.
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Old 09-25-17, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Baby Puke View Post
A bunch of my friends in the US have the DF4 and like it, but a good many have had problems with the seat post slipping, clamp breaking.
I assume these listed issues are addressed only to DF4, not the CR564P.
Does it mean we can say CR546P > DF4? As the look is slightly more expensive this would be an argument ;-)
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Old 09-25-17, 06:38 PM
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While I'd love to endorse the Dolan (happy DF3 owner), I've seen more issues with the DF4. The Axman/Look seems like proven design, haven't heard anyone complaining over here. But then Americans are well known for loudly complaining and the Japanese, not so much...

Which one strikes your fancy? Probably that's the winner.
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Old 09-25-17, 06:40 PM
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You can't find hundreds of comparisons such as this because the LOOK frame is relatively new and there aren't that many of them around. In small market sports it is HIGHLY unlikely to be able to compare many models to each other, even the more popular ones, because you aren't going to have a DF4 and a LOOK at every track. If those are the models available near you, then it would make sense that finding that information locally should be the easiest.

You also have people offering other suggestions because they are familiar with those bike and how they compare to the DF4. If I could buy a BT 15 years ago from Australia and get it in Canada, then you can get any bike into Eastern Europe as well.

If you find it too frustrating that no one else can answer your question then why not ride all three bikes and figure it out yourself. You can always sell a bike you don't like..
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Old 09-25-17, 07:15 PM
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Sizing on the CR564P is very limited, there's only three sizes and the stack is very very low even on the biggest size. Though it looks like that may not be any issue for you given your measurements.

The Cervélo T4 is exceptionally aero and very stiff but it is essentially a TT frame dressed up like a track frame. I would only consider it for mass start and timed events.
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Old 09-25-17, 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Baby Puke View Post
Which one strikes your fancy? Probably that's the winner.
Well I really like a painting of the Look but I don't feel it's enough argument to pay extra $$

Originally Posted by rustymongrel
Sizing on the CR564P is very limited, there's only three sizes and the stack is very very low even on the biggest size. Though it looks like that may not be any issue for you given your measurements.
I talked to my fitter about the geometries and he says that S size of the LOOK is good for me and 55 (or 53 but rather 55) for DF4. However, I am bit scared about the stack for the LOOK and if that would mean I will have to use extra spacers or going to positive angle of the stem (and this disturbs my personal zen ).

What is your opinions?
I also see that I forgot to give details about my body mearusements:
- height - 176.5cm
- inseam - 80cm
- torse length - 71 cm
- arm length - 62cm

I'm attaching the geometry of my current track bike (setup is in the #1 post)

Originally Posted by rustymongrel
The Cervélo T4 is exceptionally aero and very stiff but it is essentially a TT frame dressed up like a track frame. I would only consider it for mass start and timed events.

Originally Posted by rustymongrel
The Cervélo T4 is exceptionally aero and very stiff but it is essentially a TT frame dressed up like a track frame. I would only consider it for mass start and timed events.
As I said, TT and endurance races are my top. So the T4 is not that but and there is a chance I could get it in similar price to the LOOK. (and I am not a big fan of this red color )
Attached Images
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Old 09-25-17, 10:36 PM
  #22  
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https://www.cyclingexpress.com/en/pr...rack-bike.html This is a small size of a previous branding of the Axman. It's available for just $1660 here in Australia for the full bike, but when you change settings to US or Europe, the cost becomes absolutely absurd!

Pretty much all the chat about the Look that I have seen has been around it's price. Basically, Look branded them and then proceeded to post an asking price well in excess of previous rebrandings of the exact same frame. Therein lies the main issue. The frame itself was purported to be well underpriced for it's quality......until they put a Look sticker and paint on them.

As for the Dolan, just read about it. Lots unhappy, some not (but generally happy customers don't write reviews). But for me, the glaring issue from them was the lack of support and seemingly care for the problems with their frames. That would be a massive NO from me but YMMV. Their most recent answer to the spreading dropouts issue has been to simply cut them shorter, which then limits your gearing combinations available without changing chains, but once again, that may not be a problem for you.

Is carbon a definite for you? I ask because last year I took delivery of a custom Duratec Sprinter T11. It's the biggest size frame they were able to make! I know because we had to fiddle with the geo because we had the top tube too long for their jig Anyhow, going from a carbon to this bike I was super sceptical, but the alloy frame has well and truly exceeded my expectations. It rides like it's on rails around the boarded velo and is stiffer than I had even hoped. You'd have absolutely zero issues in a small size. Well worth considering IMO
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Old 09-25-17, 10:58 PM
  #23  
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If you can get the cervelo for near the look then get he Cervelo. The look is an axeman withoit the nose cone, so just a very expensive paintjob on a china frame. The Cervelo for endurance track work is effectively a world class frame
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Old 09-26-17, 12:07 AM
  #24  
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I'd read reviews about the T4. It's been out for a long time but I've only seen a few ride it. I think Bobby Lea rides one. Not sure if it's a sponsorship thing or not.

It's a dedicated TT frame designed first to be ridden with aerobars. The fact that you can equip it with drop bars is secondary. That isn't bad. Other frames are design just the opposite way.
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Old 09-26-17, 06:31 AM
  #25  
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fwiw the T4 is one of the most popular enduro bikes on the international circuit.
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