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Adding resistance to a CycleOps Fluid Trainer

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Adding resistance to a CycleOps Fluid Trainer

Old 09-25-17, 10:48 AM
  #1  
spartanKid
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Adding resistance to a CycleOps Fluid Trainer

Has anyone ever attempted to add resistance to a CycleOps Fluid2 trainer? I know the Kurt trainers have an additional fly wheel for purchase, but CycleOps does not.

I'm looking to add resistance to the trainer to better simulate the first few pedal revs of a start. I find that with the stock resistance, in 53-11, it feels more like the 3rd or 4th pedal stroke than the first 1 or 2.

Any one have any ideas?
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Old 09-25-17, 01:28 PM
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carleton
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Originally Posted by spartanKid View Post
Any one have any ideas?
Have you contacted CycleOps? They are really responsive. I've contacted them on multiple occasions and talked to engineers (not just customer service reps) before.
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Old 09-26-17, 05:12 PM
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You could have a machine shop make you a flywheel, but it probably won't be cheap.
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Old 09-26-17, 05:47 PM
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May be cheaper and easier to just sell it and trade up to a Kurt. I'm on a kickr now and that move was well worth it, but it wasn't cheap!
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Old 09-27-17, 09:45 AM
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carleton
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Originally Posted by brawlo View Post
May be cheaper and easier to just sell it and trade up to a Kurt. I'm on a kickr now and that move was well worth it, but it wasn't cheap!
Agreed. Basically, you can't make an apple into an orange.

If you want a standing start machine, then resign yourself to the fact that a basic fluid trainer won't do it. There are several machines out there that will, though.
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Old 09-27-17, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by spartanKid View Post
Additional flywheels have to get pretty large to make a significant difference. I'm thinking more something like adding like a mag resistance unit from another trainer would be more useful.
Mag units resist speed. Flywheels resist changes in speed. For training acceleration, you'll do better with a big flywheel.
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Old 09-27-17, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by gl98115 View Post
Mag units resist speed. Flywheels resist changes in speed. For training acceleration, you'll do better with a big flywheel.
A flywheel will not replicate a standing start the way that you expect. It simply spins up too fast. They are designed to hold speed more so than anything. So, you don't have to keep pedaling to keep the trainer's speed up. You can take micro rests and the wheel keeps spinning.

I have a 50lb flywheel on my CycleOps spin bike and I still have to add LOTS of brake force to get the resistance I need to replicate a standing start.

The Eddy Current resistance unit of the Cateye CS1000 can do it, too.

I had Kurt Fluid and Mag trainers with the additional flywheel. Starts on the fluid weren't worth the effort. The mag trainer was better (on full resistance) using the flywheel. I ditched them all for the Cycleops.
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Old 09-27-17, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
I have a 50lb flywheel on my CycleOps spin bike and I still have to add LOTS of brake force to get the resistance I need to replicate a standing start.
It's not the weight of the flywheel (resistance to force) that's important, it's the radius of gyration (resistance to torque). Flywheels on trainers are more effective than flywheels on spin bikes because they spin much faster due to the additional 'gear' characterized by the ratio of the radius of the rear bike wheel to the radius of the roller on the resistance unit.
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Old 09-27-17, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by gl98115 View Post
It's not the weight of the flywheel (resistance to force) that's important, it's the radius of gyration (resistance to torque). Flywheels on trainers are more effective than flywheels on spin bikes because they spin much faster due to the additional 'gear' characterized by the ratio of the radius of the rear bike wheel to the radius of the roller on the resistance unit.
Define "more effective".

Because I've owned 1 fluid trainer (with optional big flywheel), 1 mag trainer (with optional big flywheel), 1 normal mag trainer, 1 eddy current trainer, and 2 high-end (not just basic gym quality) spin bikes, and I'm pretty sure that the 50lb CycleOps flywheel is the most effective of all that have been mentioned in this thread

I know I can do this on a 50lb flywheel. I could not do that on a mag or fluid trainer. I could only do 2,000W on the Cateye eddy current trainer. It takes quite a lot of torque to make that much power

I think the Wattbike and Wahoo Kicker are similar. But I can't speak to them as I have never ridden one.
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Last edited by carleton; 09-27-17 at 06:40 PM.
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Old 09-27-17, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by spartanKid View Post
Again this isn't quite right:

One, the mass of the flywheel does matter, because the moment of inertia is proportional to mass of the spinning object, and the energy of the spinning object is proportional to the moment of intertia. Two, the radius at which the mass is matters quadratically, where as the mass is only linearly. It's not just the mass or just the "radius of gyration" or whatever, it's maximizing the the combination of the two.

E = 1/2 I w^2, where E is the energy, I is the moment of intertia, (1/2 mR^2 for a uniform disk), w is the angular frequency, m is the mass of the disk, and R is the radius of the disc. Assuming a the flywheel stays the same you can calculate power required for an acceleration by just looking at the changes in angular frequency.

To maximize the moment of inertia *for a given amount of mass* you want it to be as far away from the axis of rotation as possible, i.e. you want as large a radius as possible. BUT that's given the same mass between two fly wheels.

For Carleton's case, a 50lbs fly wheel is going to be 2 or 3 times heavier than most trainer flywheels, AS WELL as having a much larger radius, so I expect it to be the most resistive of all the options, as his data shows.

Yeah, it's pretty big. Plus you can also add friction resistance using the knob. One can easily make it immovable with the legs.

Here is the Kurt Road Machine with the optional additional flywheel (on the floor):



The diameter of the CycleOps is nearly as big as an actual wheel.



That's literally like using one of these 45lb plates as a flywheel:



...except it's actually heavier...and it has brake pads to boot

Last edited by carleton; 09-27-17 at 07:41 PM.
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Old 09-27-17, 07:42 PM
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Reading through everything here, it seems your only cheap option is to go and do your starts on the road/track. Going to an expensive trainer like the kickr or wattbike is the next best step for 'feel'.

The standing start is something that is actually fairly rare. Then on top of that you can throw in the gated start which is a different thing again. Then furthermore, there are physical characteristics to the start that simply can't be replicated on the trainer that is held in place.

Having a flywheel made for the Cycleops by a machine shop will likely work out more than the cost of selling your trainer and buying a Kurt with a heavy flywheel, possibly a lot more. The Kurt with the heavy flywheel is light years ahead of the standard for starting purposes and pretty much all the other parts of training TBH. Another option is the Lemond trainer which is recommended in between the Kurt and Cycleops by Carl in UpUpUp. They are way more noisy though.
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Old 09-27-17, 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by spartanKid View Post
This makes sense. I hesitate to do my starts on the road with a road bike because the last time I did that I was bending the bottom bracket inward enough that the chain popped off the large chainring, I crashed and broke my collarbone. I can re-create the phenomenon on the trainer, too, so I know it's not a freak accident, the Allez just isn't super stiff in the BB area.
I think that comes down to technique, a technique that will flow on to your track riding/starting. Both of the bikes I have used permanently mounted in my trainer are noodly pieces of crap. Add to that I was at one point hovering over 130kg and that's a lot of weight and anger.....and flex. I modified my technique and I don't flex the bike nearly as much as I used to, definitely not enough to be changing gears. Now with the kickr I do standing starts and 100% resistance efforts without drama, but the direct drive factor stiffens the whole setup noticeably over the kurt.
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Old 10-01-17, 07:21 PM
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Phantom 3 or 5?

About adding flywheel on the KK Road Machine, I have one and if I attach it and try Stand Starts it will cause more slipping on the rear wheel even pressing the tire up to the limit, bendind the KK knob screw supporting structure..

Originally Posted by carleton View Post
A flywheel will not replicate a standing start the way that you expect. It simply spins up too fast. They are designed to hold speed more so than anything. So, you don't have to keep pedaling to keep the trainer's speed up. You can take micro rests and the wheel keeps spinning.

I have a 50lb flywheel on my CycleOps spin bike and I still have to add LOTS of brake force to get the resistance I need to replicate a standing start.

The Eddy Current resistance unit of the Cateye CS1000 can do it, too.

I had Kurt Fluid and Mag trainers with the additional flywheel. Starts on the fluid weren't worth the effort. The mag trainer was better (on full resistance) using the flywheel. I ditched them all for the Cycleops.
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Old 10-01-17, 07:59 PM
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I was, and still am, trying to work out a way to make a centrifugal brake release for my spin bike. Basically, it would release some resistance off of the spinbike brake as you get up to speed. I think it might be easiest to make this with an eddy current brake without using the resistance pad. It's been a busy few weeks, and my brain has been functioning on fumes, so any suggestions would be helpful.
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Old 10-01-17, 10:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Clythio View Post
Phantom 3 or 5?

About adding flywheel on the KK Road Machine, I have one and if I attach it and try Stand Starts it will cause more slipping on the rear wheel even pressing the tire up to the limit, bendind the KK knob screw supporting structure..
I had that problem, too. A "trainer tire" rubbed with alcohol for more grip will help. But, I'm not sure if that will solve it entirely. These tires are designed to grip trainer cylinders better than normal tires. But, are for indoor use only. You'll wipe out on the road. They are also a bear to mount. It's worth the tip to have the mechanic at the shop do it...seriously.

continental bicycle Hometrainer

Originally Posted by taras0000 View Post
I was, and still am, trying to work out a way to make a centrifugal brake release for my spin bike. Basically, it would release some resistance off of the spinbike brake as you get up to speed. I think it might be easiest to make this with an eddy current brake without using the resistance pad. It's been a busy few weeks, and my brain has been functioning on fumes, so any suggestions would be helpful.
My guess is that there could be Arduinos and servos involved. Arduios to sense the speed and transmit the desired setting to the servo that turns the resistance knob.
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Old 10-01-17, 11:21 PM
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
My guess is that there could be Arduinos and servos involved. Arduios to sense the speed and transmit the desired setting to the servo that turns the resistance knob.
That might work. I might be able to rig a stepper motor to the shaft of the tension know to act on the felt pad. I'll see where this goes.
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Old 10-02-17, 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Clythio View Post
About adding flywheel on the KK Road Machine, I have one and if I attach it and try Stand Starts it will cause more slipping on the rear wheel even pressing the tire up to the limit, bendind the KK knob screw supporting structure..
3M stair grip tape. It leaves a lot of rubber in the vicinity of your trainer, but barely slips. I also tried a different brand tape with a finer grit but it literally lasted 4 sessions while the 3M lasted 3 years! I more recently removed my roller and had it knurled and that achieved the same level of grip without the rubber residue. It's a lot more involved and will void your trainer warranty to do it as you have to pull the whole thing apart.
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Old 10-02-17, 07:28 PM
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Instead of knurling, etch it, paint with JB Weld, and roll it in industrial grade diamond grit!
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Old 10-02-17, 09:43 PM
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I've found that a no-slip trainer can be had by using rollers with a resistance unit and a fork stand. Your own weight keeps you from slipping, just like actual riding. I too could not get a Kinetic to do even seated starts (I won't do standing starts on a trainer) without slipping without resorting to the tire-destroying, rubber-spraying methods mentioned above.
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Old 10-03-17, 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted by brawlo View Post
3M stair grip tape. It leaves a lot of rubber in the vicinity of your trainer, but barely slips. I also tried a different brand tape with a finer grit but it literally lasted 4 sessions while the 3M lasted 3 years! I more recently removed my roller and had it knurled and that achieved the same level of grip without the rubber residue. It's a lot more involved and will void your trainer warranty to do it as you have to pull the whole thing apart.
Red Baron's Log, from a Finnish masters sprinter who rides a Kinetic, had a post on this:

https://punainenparooni.com/2013/11/...-with-trainer/
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Old 10-03-17, 05:37 PM
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Am I the only one that's ever used the Trainer Tire that's designed to work on trainers?

That one-time purchase that lasts indefinitely is less expensive than chewing up your expensive road tires prematurely.

The only down-side is that it's difficult to swap back and forth if you need the bike. It's OK if your bike is in "winter training mode". Even easier if you have an old/cheap wheel dedicated to being used on the trainer. If you do that, you still come out cheaper than chewing up your normal tires.
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Old 10-03-17, 05:48 PM
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
Am I the only one that's ever used the Trainer Tire that's designed to work on trainers?

That one-time purchase that lasts indefinitely is less expensive than chewing up your expensive road tires prematurely.

The only down-side is that it's difficult to swap back and forth if you need the bike. It's OK if your bike is in "winter training mode". Even easier if you have an old/cheap wheel dedicated to being used on the trainer. If you do that, you still come out cheaper than chewing up your normal tires.
I've used the tacx (blue) tire and it works great. Spray some CRC 05350 fanbelt conditioner on it and it works even better. As you said earlier, it's a chore to get it over the rim. I used a "thornproof" tube in it, heavy as hell and hard to get in there, but it also adds to the flywheel effect. I use the blue tire on an old wheel where the Campy freehub froze up, so it's a kind of 8-speed fixed gear. It all works surprisingly well, compared to my road wheel, which constantly slips on the roller unless you crank the knob down until you can't crank any more.
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Old 10-03-17, 11:55 PM
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
Am I the only one that's ever used the Trainer Tire that's designed to work on trainers?
I did try one, can't remember what brand, and found it still slipped, so sold it and went back to the grip tape. I didn't look into any of the tricks mentioned above though. The knurling didn't cost me anything but the time it took to dismantle the trainer. I get superior grip (even better than the tape) and zero mess.
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Old 10-04-17, 12:33 AM
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For best results with the trainer tire:
- Rub it with rubbing alcohol (or something similar) before your effort to remove accumulated aluminum from the trainer.
- Warm up the tire immediately before the big effort by spinning the tire enough to raise the temperature. Do your effort before it cools down.

I've repeatedly clocked 1,900 - 2000w starts with the Cateye and a Conti trainer tire using that method (measured via the SRM on my track bike). I've had the resistance set so much that I couldn't move the tire. Had to move it 1 or 2 notches from max in order to do the effort.

Maybe the grip was more a function of the trainer than the tire?

BTW, the Cateye absolutely sucked for steady efforts. The flywheel was nonexistant. It had a wind resistance unit on one side that I removed because it was annoying.

Pic of the Cateye for those who are wondering:

(not me, hahaha)

Last edited by carleton; 10-04-17 at 12:37 AM.
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