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Research on Feedback Sports Omnium Portable Track Trainer (rollers)

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Research on Feedback Sports Omnium Portable Track Trainer (rollers)

Old 12-18-17, 08:17 PM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by krispenhartung View Post
Yup, I love those stories. In the meantime, being 50 years old and having the onset of arthritis in my knees, and having tried it both ways, I need to gradually warm up and work my legs through the various intervals to open up before a race. And that's on top of being mentally focused. ;-)
I guess the take-away from my story isn't about a short warmup being better. The take-away is that it doesn't have to be precise to be effective. It could be long and imprecise and effective.

I offered my story about having a terribly abbreviated warmup that was very far from what I was accustomed to lead to a good race day.

I think it's great that you are paying attention to your warmup. This is one of the main reasons I bought a new SRM for 2018. I think it's an often overlooked part of one's race routine. I'm just suggesting that we not to over-think it, too
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Old 12-18-17, 09:05 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
Many (most) mag trainers will accept track nuts. Every mag trainer that I've owned or used has. I've owned 3 different models of mag trainers and used half a dozen others. They all took the track nuts.

You mention feel. Rollers give great feel, but you give up a lot of feel when you bolt on a fork stand.

If you want great feel, use normal rollers with large barrels. If you want great feel with more resistance, use normal rollers with narrow barrels or lower your tire pressure. If you want narrow for travel as well, consider Kreitler Hot Dog rollers. They are more narrow than standard Kreitler rollers:




Or you can special order these from Kreitler:

(this is my old bike and rollers)



Very small, light, and traveled well...but required too much concentration to stay up. Possible, but difficult to relax on them.
BTW thanks for reminding me of the options Kreitler provided. Those guys are awesome. I called them and custom ordered the hot dog rollers with 2.5cm rollers. I actually found an issue with their web order page for those rollers and they edited it within minutes and provided more options. That ought to make things interesting! NOTE: The hotdog rollers on their kompact frame will not work with some track bikes, like the Fuji Track Elite, with a shorter wheel base. So they are custom building the hotdog width of rollers and 2.5cm rollers on a standard frame, which is about 6 inches longer than the Kompact frame. Counter-intuitively, the shorter frame isn't compatible with shorter wheel bases.
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Old 12-19-17, 08:24 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by krispenhartung View Post
BTW thanks for reminding me of the options Kreitler provided. Those guys are awesome. I called them and custom ordered the hot dog rollers with 2.5cm rollers. I actually found an issue with their web order page for those rollers and they edited it within minutes and provided more options. That ought to make things interesting! NOTE: The hotdog rollers on their kompact frame will not work with some track bikes, like the Fuji Track Elite, with a shorter wheel base. So they are custom building the hotdog width of rollers and 2.5cm rollers on a standard frame, which is about 6 inches longer than the Kompact frame. Counter-intuitively, the shorter frame isn't compatible with shorter wheel bases.
That was very good of you to ask if your wheelbase would fit on the Hot Dog rollers frame which uses bolts to adjust for wheelbase.

If you have the standard black frame (that we have all seen before), you can run all of the roller width and diameter options AND you have the quick pin system to adjust for different wheelbase lengths as you change gears.



The rollers I had in the black and white photo above where custom made as well. Those aren't hot dog. They are the 4.5" diameter barrels with plastic end caps and ultra narrow width for traveling. Basically, the standard 4.5" low resistance barrels which were larger diameter than Hot Dog barrels and had them cut to a shorter width than Hot Dog barrels. And they used a standard frame and I could swap out standard width or narrow width barrels as needed.

So, on a relate note: If you already have standard width barrels, you can order narrow width barrels directly from Kreitler and use them on the same frame.
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Old 12-19-17, 08:46 AM
  #29  
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While we are here, I'll add these tips:

If you notice at the bottom right of the rollers, there is some black velcro cable tie. I connect it to one part of the frame (at the end) then when I double the frame over for travel/storage, I use the velcro strap to keep the other side from flopping around. It makes them infinitely easy to carry because they are one stiff rectangle as opposed to flopping about around the hinge.



(I saw this but never did it): I once saw a guy use a rope and attach it at the hinges so that he could carry the rollers on his shoulder like a shoulder bag from the parking lot to the infield.
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Old 12-19-17, 09:15 AM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by krispenhartung View Post
45-55% of FTP for me. It's going to be relative to the rider. I think you'll find that most every training app and program shows warm up and cool down as less than 55% of FTP. That's going to be entirely relative to the rider's FTP and where in that range they choose.
Wait, are you saying your FTP is 120w, but you need to hit 300w in your warm up to do well?
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Old 12-19-17, 10:24 AM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by topflightpro View Post
Wait, are you saying your FTP is 120w, but you need to hit 300w in your warm up to do well?
;-) Oh, my apologies, I didn't mean to convey that. I meant that less than 55% of FTP is going to be different for each person. Going back to the original intent of my comment, 70w for me is not effective as a warmup power, let alone trying to spin at 130rpm with such low resistance.

I know this is totally off topic, and I think I've got a satisfactory response from my original post on the trainers, but here it the warmup protocol I use before a race.

https://wattbike.com/us/blog/team-sk...rm-up-protocol

As you can see, it progresses up to zone 5 -- not possible on the Omnium Track trainer.

Here is a good visual depiction of the warmup protocol.


2017-12-19_9-19-41.jpg
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Old 12-19-17, 10:25 AM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
That was very good of you to ask if your wheelbase would fit on the Hot Dog rollers frame which uses bolts to adjust for wheelbase.

If you have the standard black frame (that we have all seen before), you can run all of the roller width and diameter options AND you have the quick pin system to adjust for different wheelbase lengths as you change gears.



The rollers I had in the black and white photo above where custom made as well. Those aren't hot dog. They are the 4.5" diameter barrels with plastic end caps and ultra narrow width for traveling. Basically, the standard 4.5" low resistance barrels which were larger diameter than Hot Dog barrels and had them cut to a shorter width than Hot Dog barrels. And they used a standard frame and I could swap out standard width or narrow width barrels as needed.

So, on a relate note: If you already have standard width barrels, you can order narrow width barrels directly from Kreitler and use them on the same frame.
oooooohhh, it's going to be fun times on these narrow 2.5cm rollers! I wonder if I'll even be able to ride on them on my aero bars. We shall see!
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Old 12-19-17, 10:26 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
While we are here, I'll add these tips:

If you notice at the bottom right of the rollers, there is some black velcro cable tie. I connect it to one part of the frame (at the end) then when I double the frame over for travel/storage, I use the velcro strap to keep the other side from flopping around. It makes them infinitely easy to carry because they are one stiff rectangle as opposed to flopping about around the hinge.



(I saw this but never did it): I once saw a guy use a rope and attach it at the hinges so that he could carry the rollers on his shoulder like a shoulder bag from the parking lot to the infield.
Good tip! Thank you
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Old 12-19-17, 11:07 AM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by krispenhartung View Post
45-55% of FTP for me. It's going to be relative to the rider. I think you'll find that most every training app and program shows warm up and cool down as less than 55% of FTP. That's going to be entirely relative to the rider's FTP and where in that range they choose.
That's for roadies. We're track riders. And if you're a sprinter, that's way too many watts. Active recovery for a sprinter is basically just turning the cranks like they're made of glass. 80w is *plenty* no matter who you are.
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Old 12-19-17, 11:11 AM
  #35  
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...also, why can't you spin 130rpm at 80w? That indicates a pedaling proficiency problem.
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Old 12-19-17, 11:46 AM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by southernfox View Post
...also, why can't you spin 130rpm at 80w? That indicates a pedaling proficiency problem.
+1. Also, I commonly do rev ups on the feedback where I hit 190+ RPM and my heart rate is in the 170 BPM range (I am 68); all my friends who use the feedback report they are able to do the same thing. I think that gets you well into the red zone. In an earlier post I talked about going out the track for some hard jump warm up finishing, but sometimes the event timing does not allow this. I still am able to warm up adequately. I have been doing 45 minute recovery rides on the feedback, and judging by the amount of sweat generated, its use seem to warm me up quite well. Just because the SKY roadies do the kind of warm up you describe does not mean it is the best for you, but then again maybe it is. Their trackies seem to do OK warming up on rollers. Warning, these are just the musings of an old man.
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Old 12-19-17, 11:50 AM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by southernfox View Post
...also, why can't you spin 130rpm at 80w? That indicates a pedaling proficiency problem.
My guess is that OP is using longer than 165mm cranks, which make carrying unloaded high RPMs difficult sometimes.

Also, in doing cadence ladder drills (10s x 100rpm, 110RPM, 120RPM, 130RPM, 140RPM, etc...), there can be some odd frequency issues at a certain point. At one point I noted that, using 170mm cranks, I could hold every cadence at will smoothly up to and over 220RPM...except 130RPM. It was this weird frequency that disrupted the flow.

I'm pretty sure it was just a perfect storm of me, bike size, crank length, tire pressure, tire bounce on the barrels, and legs bobbing up and down that was simply dissonant.

It's worth noting, this went away when I went to 165mm cranks.

I think everyone could have this odd dissonant RPM.

This could or could not be OP's issue.
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Old 12-19-17, 11:59 AM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
I think everyone could have this odd dissonant RPM.

This could or could not be OP's issue.
I ride 165 cranks and I have experienced this around 135 rpm. I agree that this probably happens to everyone, just the frequency differs as a function of the various parameters mentioned by Carleton. Given my morphology, bike set up, etc, it seems that the rpm range at which to phenomenon occurs is relative tight. At 130 I don't feel anything, and at 138 it is gone.
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Old 12-19-17, 12:24 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by southernfox View Post
That's for roadies. We're track riders. And if you're a sprinter, that's way too many watts. Active recovery for a sprinter is basically just turning the cranks like they're made of glass. 80w is *plenty* no matter who you are.
BINGO! I would be above said "roadie", and I do primarily time trials in the North West. This is why I need to stay on this group...lots of different standards and approaches that don't apply equally to road and track. I will figure it out. :-)
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Old 12-19-17, 12:26 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by southernfox View Post
...also, why can't you spin 130rpm at 80w? That indicates a pedaling proficiency problem.
I can, but it feels weird It's like doing squats in zero gravity. But then again, I'm coming from a different background here that doesn't apply to track

Last edited by krispenhartung; 12-19-17 at 12:30 PM.
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Old 12-19-17, 12:40 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
(...) This is one of the main reasons I bought a new SRM for 2018.
Someone means business for 2018...
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Old 12-19-17, 03:51 PM
  #42  
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krispenhartung,

There are a few maxims that hold true for those migrating to track from road:

It's simply easier to not consider what you already know from your other cycling sport and start as a "blank slate". Although things are very similar, the small differences are significant enough to keep you from reaching your full potential. It's more efficient to have a, "What should I do?" mindset than to have a "I did it this way as a roadie so it probably works well as a trackie." The demands for track races are slightly different than those of road.

I like to equate road cycling to playing electric guitar and track cycling to classical. Going from classical to electric is a lot easier than going from electric to classical. And if an electric player is looking to learn classical, (s)he's better off starting from a beginner classical curriculum than trying to play electric style on a classical guitar.

Track racing is a really mature sport where winners and losers are determined by seconds and fractions thereof even at the local level. Trust me, that novel idea you have from the roadie world that no one seems to be doing in the trackie world has already been tried and ditched for a good reason

This isn't to say that there isn't room to question what is done or why. I question A WHOLE LOT of what is done and why and many others do, too. I writing just to say, that you'll get up to speed faster by mimicking others then tweaking than starting a whole new path. That whole new path may well be better...but it will take you several seasons to pave it



Originally Posted by Franklin27 View Post
Someone means business for 2018...
If all else fails, at least I'll look fast.
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Old 12-19-17, 10:03 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
krispenhartung,

There are a few maxims that hold true for those migrating to track from road:

It's simply easier to not consider what you already know from your other cycling sport and start as a "blank slate". Although things are very similar, the small differences are significant enough to keep you from reaching your full potential. It's more efficient to have a, "What should I do?" mindset than to have a "I did it this way as a roadie so it probably works well as a trackie." The demands for track races are slightly different than those of road.

I like to equate road cycling to playing electric guitar and track cycling to classical. Going from classical to electric is a lot easier than going from electric to classical. And if an electric player is looking to learn classical, (s)he's better off starting from a beginner classical curriculum than trying to play electric style on a classical guitar.

Track racing is a really mature sport where winners and losers are determined by seconds and fractions thereof even at the local level. Trust me, that novel idea you have from the roadie world that no one seems to be doing in the trackie world has already been tried and ditched for a good reason

This isn't to say that there isn't room to question what is done or why. I question A WHOLE LOT of what is done and why and many others do, too. I writing just to say, that you'll get up to speed faster by mimicking others then tweaking than starting a whole new path. That whole new path may well be better...but it will take you several seasons to pave it

If all else fails, at least I'll look fast.
carleton - I love the analogy! And this is precisely why it works so well for me....I'm a musician and have played guitar professionally and on the side for over 30 years. I started on classical guitar and was trained that way. In fact, my parents wouldn't let me buy an electric until I learned to play classical guitar, and so I did, took lessons, learned the fundamentals, did recitals, etc. Then I bought an electric guitar in junior high, and discovered rock and roll and learned to mimic all the guitar gods. Then I moved to fusion and progressive rock in my 20s, and by the time I was in my late 30s and into my 40s, I was playing jazz in clubs. The classical training and the technicality allowed me to pick up jazz very quickly. I already had the chops, I just needed the theory. Now, I don't play out anymore, but the only guitar I play at home by myself is that same classical guitar I studied on in my early years. :-) Anyway, thanks for the great explanation. I'm a fast learner and a lot of how I pick things up so quickly is, as you allude to, by observation of others who do it well, not to mention riding with them. Sadly, Boise, ID does not have a Velodrome. There were plans at one time to build one, but they ran out of money and used the funds for something else. So I will be doing a lot of road trips to the Jerry Baker Velodrome in Seattle, WA, and the Alpenrose Velodrome in Portland OR...already corresponding with the race directors and getting my ducks in a row. Already modifying my training regiment and hitting the gym. Of course, I'll still do Time Trials. The race of truth and riding at threshold is still my love.
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Old 12-19-17, 10:20 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
This is one of the main reasons I bought a new SRM for 2018. I think it's an often overlooked part of one's race routine. I'm just suggesting that we not to over-think it, too
Interesting. I wish I had looked into that before I bought the Stages track meter for my Fuji Track Elite. I've been slowly replacing Stages power meters on all my bikes. I wonder if the SRM Power Meter Science Track will install on the Track Elite? I'm a big fan of the spider or dual-crank based meters. I have a Quarq spider meter on my S-Works Venge, and the new Shimano Dura-Ace FC-R9100p dual-crank/sensor meter for my time trial bike. Is the SRM dual sensor? I am it is given the price.
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Old 12-20-17, 05:18 AM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by krispenhartung View Post
carleton - I love the analogy! And this is precisely why it works so well for me....I'm a musician and have played guitar professionally and on the side for over 30 years. I started on classical guitar and was trained that way. In fact, my parents wouldn't let me buy an electric until I learned to play classical guitar, and so I did, took lessons, learned the fundamentals, did recitals, etc. Then I bought an electric guitar in junior high, and discovered rock and roll and learned to mimic all the guitar gods. Then I moved to fusion and progressive rock in my 20s, and by the time I was in my late 30s and into my 40s, I was playing jazz in clubs. The classical training and the technicality allowed me to pick up jazz very quickly. I already had the chops, I just needed the theory. Now, I don't play out anymore, but the only guitar I play at home by myself is that same classical guitar I studied on in my early years. :-) Anyway, thanks for the great explanation. I'm a fast learner and a lot of how I pick things up so quickly is, as you allude to, by observation of others who do it well, not to mention riding with them. Sadly, Boise, ID does not have a Velodrome. There were plans at one time to build one, but they ran out of money and used the funds for something else. So I will be doing a lot of road trips to the Jerry Baker Velodrome in Seattle, WA, and the Alpenrose Velodrome in Portland OR...already corresponding with the race directors and getting my ducks in a row. Already modifying my training regiment and hitting the gym. Of course, I'll still do Time Trials. The race of truth and riding at threshold is still my love.
That's a great story!

Sadly, my guitar "career" never progressed past my bedroom...not even to the living room

Originally Posted by krispenhartung View Post
Interesting. I wish I had looked into that before I bought the Stages track meter for my Fuji Track Elite. I've been slowly replacing Stages power meters on all my bikes. I wonder if the SRM Power Meter Science Track will install on the Track Elite? I'm a big fan of the spider or dual-crank based meters. I have a Quarq spider meter on my S-Works Venge, and the new Shimano Dura-Ace FC-R9100p dual-crank/sensor meter for my time trial bike. Is the SRM dual sensor? I am it is given the price.
SRM Science Track should install on the Fuji Track Elite no problem. It probably uses the same specs as the Dura Ace cranks

Poke around, there should be a power meter thread no more than 2-4 pages back off of the first page here. Feel free to revive it with questions.
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Old 12-20-17, 08:23 AM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
There are a few maxims that hold true for those migrating to track from road:

It's simply easier to not consider what you already know from your other cycling sport and start as a "blank slate". Although things are very similar, the small differences are significant enough to keep you from reaching your full potential. It's more efficient to have a, "What should I do?" mindset than to have a "I did it this way as a roadie so it probably works well as a trackie." The demands for track races are slightly different than those of road.

I like to equate road cycling to playing electric guitar and track cycling to classical. Going from classical to electric is a lot easier than going from electric to classical. And if an electric player is looking to learn classical, (s)he's better off starting from a beginner classical curriculum than trying to play electric style on a classical guitar.

Track racing is a really mature sport where winners and losers are determined by seconds and fractions thereof even at the local level. Trust me, that novel idea you have from the roadie world that no one seems to be doing in the trackie world has already been tried and ditched for a good reason

This isn't to say that there isn't room to question what is done or why. I question A WHOLE LOT of what is done and why and many others do, too. I writing just to say, that you'll get up to speed faster by mimicking others then tweaking than starting a whole new path. That whole new path may well be better...but it will take you several seasons to pave it
I feel like I've read this reply several times in the past year. Do you have it saved someplace to just copy and paste or do you type it out each time?


Originally Posted by carleton View Post
SRM Science Track should install on the Fuji Track Elite no problem. It probably uses the same specs as the Dura Ace cranks

Poke around, there should be a power meter thread no more than 2-4 pages back off of the first page here. Feel free to revive it with questions.
I believe the Track SRM is available for either Octalink or Square-Taper bottom brackets. If you get the Octalink, it will pop on to your existing DA bottom bracket. If you end up with a Square-Taper, you'll need a new BB. That said, I think most people go with the Octalink version. If you buy one, just make sure you go with Octalink.
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Old 12-20-17, 09:32 AM
  #47  
carleton
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Originally Posted by topflightpro View Post
I feel like I've read this reply several times in the past year. Do you have it saved someplace to just copy and paste or do you type it out each time?
I type it out each time

I've found it's a decent analogy that people can relate to. Especially because the electric guitar world has a lot of accessories that confuse what's happening. When people encounter an issue on road bikes, they often first look to the solve it with the shift lever as opposed to their body. Same with electric guitar players who look to fiddle with knobs or pedals when the problem can be solved with their fingers.

Originally Posted by topflightpro View Post
I believe the Track SRM is available for either Octalink or Square-Taper bottom brackets. If you get the Octalink, it will pop on to your existing DA bottom bracket. If you end up with a Square-Taper, you'll need a new BB. That said, I think most people go with the Octalink version. If you buy one, just make sure you go with Octalink.
The current track SRM offerings come with a Dura Ace Octalink BB option (tried and true. What you see the pros using) and ROTOR (new kid on the block that uses a ROTOR BB).

I believe the square taper options are very old and may be converted from road PMs. I can't say that I've ever seen a square taper SRM on a track bike.
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Old 12-21-17, 09:00 PM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
I type it out each time

I've found it's a decent analogy that people can relate to. Especially because the electric guitar world has a lot of accessories that confuse what's happening. When people encounter an issue on road bikes, they often first look to the solve it with the shift lever as opposed to their body. Same with electric guitar players who look to fiddle with knobs or pedals when the problem can be solved with their fingers.



The current track SRM offerings come with a Dura Ace Octalink BB option (tried and true. What you see the pros using) and ROTOR (new kid on the block that uses a ROTOR BB).

I believe the square taper options are very old and may be converted from road PMs. I can't say that I've ever seen a square taper SRM on a track bike.
Yup. I talked to the USA SRM distributor...nice guys. Should be here in 2 days...went with the Tony Martineque Craftwerk TT bike color scheme. Too bad I can't have his bike. ;-)
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Old 12-28-17, 08:42 PM
  #49  
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Resistance Issues with new Omnium

Can't find anywhere else to ask about this. Have emailed Feedback Sports and waiting on their reply.

I just got a new Omnium and set it up for a workout using my Trainer Road software. I use a speed sensor to get a virtual power metric in the Trainer Road software. When I started the workout I had to mash a big gear just to get close to the warmup target power of 180 watts. Working with Trainer Road support (who are excellent) we have ruled out the bike and the speed sensor. It seems the Omnium rollers are seized up in some way. Has anyone else had this issue? Is the trainer faulty? The Trainer Road guys are fans of the Omnium so it definitely works for others. Also my Cycleops Fluid 2 works fine with Trainer Road (so not the rider either).

Any similar experience / solutions out there?
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Old 12-29-17, 11:36 AM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by rfreese888 View Post
Can't find anywhere else to ask about this. Have emailed Feedback Sports and waiting on their reply.

I just got a new Omnium and set it up for a workout using my Trainer Road software. I use a speed sensor to get a virtual power metric in the Trainer Road software. When I started the workout I had to mash a big gear just to get close to the warmup target power of 180 watts. Working with Trainer Road support (who are excellent) we have ruled out the bike and the speed sensor. It seems the Omnium rollers are seized up in some way. Has anyone else had this issue? Is the trainer faulty? The Trainer Road guys are fans of the Omnium so it definitely works for others. Also my Cycleops Fluid 2 works fine with Trainer Road (so not the rider either).

Any similar experience / solutions out there?
Is your problem that the rollers don't provide enough resistance. If so, then check and see if you have the track version. If you problem is that the rollers provide enough resistance, but you have to "mash" a big gear to get the sensor to see enough speed to give you a faux power, then I suspect that the rollers have not "seized up", which would provide a lot of resistance at very low speeds. If you can be more precise in the effect you are noticing, and the parameters that produce it, we may be able to help you figure this one out.
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