Redhook crit
02-18-18, 04:25 PM
#1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: NWNJ
Posts: 3,704
Bikes: Road bike is a Carbon Bianchi C2C & Grandis (1980's), Gary Fisher Mt Bike, Trek Tandem & Mongoose SS MTB circa 1992.
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 722 Post(s)
Liked 353 Times
in
226 Posts
Redhook crit
Anyone doing it?
I plan to train and try it out this spring. Just got my first fixed gear so kinda psyched and nervous 😬
I plan to train and try it out this spring. Just got my first fixed gear so kinda psyched and nervous 😬
02-19-18, 09:02 AM
#3
Full Member
I don't know. There are some real legit guys racing Red Hook. I don't see why we can't include Red Hook under Track Cycling. I know it's not RACING on a velodrome, but Track Cycling would be the closest it should fall under in the Racer's forum. Having ridden some on the Continent, one thing I noticed was that cyclists weren't as sectarian about their disciplines. None of this proclamation of "I'm a mountain biker!" They all just raced bikes and were into sport. But what do I know.
02-19-18, 09:15 AM
#4
Senior Member
I don't know. There are some real legit guys racing Red Hook. I don't see why we can't include Red Hook under Track Cycling. I know it's not RACING on a velodrome, but Track Cycling would be the closest it should fall under in the Racer's forum. Having ridden some on the Continent, one thing I noticed was that cyclists weren't as sectarian about their disciplines. None of this proclamation of "I'm a mountain biker!" They all just raced bikes and were into sport. But what do I know.
02-19-18, 09:16 AM
#5
Elitist
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 15,965
Mentioned: 88 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1386 Post(s)
Liked 92 Times
in
77 Posts
I don't know. There are some real legit guys racing Red Hook. I don't see why we can't include Red Hook under Track Cycling. I know it's not RACING on a velodrome, but Track Cycling would be the closest it should fall under in the Racer's forum. Having ridden some on the Continent, one thing I noticed was that cyclists weren't as sectarian about their disciplines. None of this proclamation of "I'm a mountain biker!" They all just raced bikes and were into sport. But what do I know.
The only similiarity they share with track racing is the rear hub. The rules, venue, and style of racing are all different.
My guess is that the proper forum would be SSFG or Road Racing.
The reason that we have several sub-forums is because if we were lumped into bigger buckets, then the Track Racing stuff would simply be washed away in the Road or SSFG chatter. Or the threads would be derailed or filled with content from people who've never been to a velodrome but "figure it's the same, right?"
It keeps the signal/noise ratio high.
02-19-18, 09:28 AM
#6
aka mattio
Yeah, I'd say this subforum is about the type of racing, not the type of bicycle. There are few enough trackies as it is, and not very many places where we can talk to each other about the discipline of track racing (as opposed to situations when one might ride a track bike) - let us have this.
02-19-18, 09:43 AM
#8
aka mattio
There are plenty. I was watching a World Champs or World Cup a while back in which they mentioned a rider's RHC palmares. But the fact that there are crossover athletes doesn't mean we should discuss one discipline in a forum for another one.
02-19-18, 10:13 AM
#9
Elitist
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 15,965
Mentioned: 88 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1386 Post(s)
Liked 92 Times
in
77 Posts
Joshua Hartman, current US Elite Team Sprint National Champion and up and coming sprinter, participated in the Red Hook Crit before moving over to track.
Unfortunatley, he had a very bad experience with scars on his face to show for it.
The defining moment of Hartman’s early life came on the afternoon of June 8, 2013, at the Red Hook Criterium race at Brooklyn’s Navy Yards. As Hartman sprinted around the twisting track in his qualifying round, he struck his pedal on the pavement, and the impact flung him off of the bicycle. Hartman crashed face first into the foot of the race’s barriers. The metal bar pierced the skin of his cheek and shattered the bones underneath.
Blood poured from Hartman’s facial wounds, and in the first moments after the wreck he nearly asphyxiated. Emergency personnel cut into his trachea to insert a breathing tube, which saved his life. They rushed Hartman to Brooklyn Hospital, where surgeons pieced his face together with metal plates and 23 screws. He spent the next two weeks unconscious, kept alive by a ventilator.
Blood poured from Hartman’s facial wounds, and in the first moments after the wreck he nearly asphyxiated. Emergency personnel cut into his trachea to insert a breathing tube, which saved his life. They rushed Hartman to Brooklyn Hospital, where surgeons pieced his face together with metal plates and 23 screws. He spent the next two weeks unconscious, kept alive by a ventilator.
I've always disliked the RHC because it's inherently dangerous and there are very few safety precautions that I've seen. I dislike it even more now (this isn't the reason I'm suggesting that this thread belong in another sub-forum, though. It's simply off-topic in my opinion). A simple youtube search will show just how bad the crashes are. Anyone who values their racing career (amateur or pro) would be advised to avoid it.
02-19-18, 03:37 PM
#10
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 275
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 194 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times
in
1 Post
It's a crit on a fixed gear bike, raced by people who usually only race freewheel bikes. #1 thing you have to learn is that you can't take corners as fast on a fixed gear because you can't stop pedaling, so you can't rail the corner with your inside pedal up and out of the way. Nearly all crashes are clipped pedals because of this.
02-19-18, 03:57 PM
#11
Elitist
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 15,965
Mentioned: 88 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1386 Post(s)
Liked 92 Times
in
77 Posts
It's a crit on a fixed gear bike, raced by people who usually only race freewheel bikes. #1 thing you have to learn is that you can't take corners as fast on a fixed gear because you can't stop pedaling, so you can't rail the corner with your inside pedal up and out of the way. Nearly all crashes are clipped pedals because of this.
I've been aware of the RHC since its inception. I was on the Alley Cat scenes in Baltimore and DC before that. The RHC grew from that scene as a way to legitimize Alley Cats, not as a way to bring Track Racing to the streets.
The inaugural RHC was organized to celebrate David Trimble’s 26th birthday. The race was held with no sponsors, prizes, promotion or permits. Despite only a few dozen cyclists and a handful of spectators the race atmosphere was intense and well received. The race was won by Kacey Manderfield who won a tight sprint against her male rivals. She would go on to win a national track championship and turn professional that same year.
BTW, I felt the same way about Alley Cats back in the day. I love racing. I don't love unsafe racing.
02-19-18, 04:05 PM
#12
Elitist
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 15,965
Mentioned: 88 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1386 Post(s)
Liked 92 Times
in
77 Posts
In 2008, I organized the first ever Red Hook Crit to celebrate my 26th birthday. As someone who came up with one foot in traditional road bike racing and the other in unsanctioned urban alleycat races, I wanted to create a competition that would combine the physical intensity of road races with the amazing rivalries and spirit from the urban cycling scene.
RHC races are unsanctioned, meaning there’s no “official” cycling organization overseeing or ranking the race. Beyond being unsanctioned, what sets RHC races apart from more traditional urban criterium races — like the Harlem Skyscraper Classic — is the requirement that all riders have brakeless track bikes. That combination of speed, a technically difficult course and brakeless bikes makes for an intense race for competitors and spectators alike — think of it as a Formula One for cyclists, pitting riders against one another tooth and nail while pushing them to their physical limits.
The most important rule for riders is to ride within their own ability level. As organizers, we’re taking as many safety precautions as possible to ensure their safety. Riders are given race rules, a course map, a list of technical requirements and general notes in advance of the ride. We’ll have a medical team of five paramedics and two ambulances on site in case of injury.
As far as I know, there are no requirements for registration...except that one have money. No proof of ability, skill, or results. So, anyone off the street can line up against you in qualifying. Not my idea of fun.
This is the very reason why roadies hurry up and graduate out of CAT5 to avoid the drama.
...now add fixed gears to the mix
02-19-18, 10:32 PM
#13
Lapped 3x
If you're using the fixed gear scene as a tie in to track racing, then you might as well throw in the Tour de France with it as well, since both the RHC and TdF were born on fixed gears.
02-20-18, 09:09 PM
#14
Senior Member
I've always disliked the RHC because it's inherently dangerous and there are very few safety precautions that I've seen. I dislike it even more now ... A simple youtube search will show just how bad the crashes are. Anyone who values their racing career (amateur or pro) would be advised to avoid it.
Cycling is "speed without protection" = very, very, very, deadly dangerous by default - we don't need any intentionally added risk, just for the marketing, for the videos number of views, at any kind of races.
Most of promoters/organizers, and sadly some of us, bike racers, are used to say things like "risk is part of the sport".
Yes, it is, but all sport activities are discussing/developing safety conditions - motorsports, best example.
Cycling just made helmets mandatory, during last 20 years.
02-21-18, 05:20 AM
#15
Junior Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 136
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 21 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
I raced the one in London a couple years back. The organisation of the event was good but there were issues with some of the other riders. First there were some inexperienced racers - guys that were fit and could handle their bike on the street (and who were fast enough to qualify) but they had little prior crit or track racing experience. Racing in a bunch uses different skills and requires a different mentality and it is never a good idea throwing too many without that experience into the mix and then expecting the race to pass smoothly. Then there were the fixed gear crit specialists, super strong guys, but i found a minority of them to be overly aggressive particularly in the qualification laps. Ive ridden and raced with olympic and world champions but they've never been anything but approachable and friendly. They are not going to chop my front wheel or take risks that jeapordise safety because they see someone miles below them on cyclings hierarchy. So i really didnt appreciate the attitude from some guys acting like big shots and trying to bully riders out of their racing line by shouting and swearing loudly. They were TTTing the qualification laps while im doing the same solo and they come flying round the corner shouting to get out the f***** way because im on "their" racing line. Just no need for that and left a bad taste.
02-21-18, 07:46 AM
#16
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 7,569
Mentioned: 54 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1851 Post(s)
Liked 678 Times
in
429 Posts
They are not going to chop my front wheel or take risks that jeapordise safety because they see someone miles below them on cyclings hierarchy. So i really didnt appreciate the attitude from some guys acting like big shots and trying to bully riders out of their racing line by shouting and swearing loudly. They were TTTing the qualification laps while im doing the same solo and they come flying round the corner shouting to get out the f***** way because im on "their" racing line. Just no need for that and left a bad taste.
We had a similar discussion about this situation in scratch/points races a few months back. The consensus then was it was track dependent, but in most cases, you are to hold your line and they go around you -- Madison rules. But if fields are small, many tracks will tell dropped riders to go high, allowing the faster field to power around the sprint lane.
02-21-18, 08:39 AM
#17
Elitist
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 15,965
Mentioned: 88 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1386 Post(s)
Liked 92 Times
in
77 Posts
A rider is not responsible for what happens behind them. "Going high" can cause more drama than anything. The faster rider should see the to-be-lapped rider in their field of view and plan to pass accordingly. Period.
If the slower rider is to be pulled (I've been pulled a lot, lol), then the race director (at the appropriate time) will ask that rider to exit the track safely, from the inside.
So, that slower rider should never leave the sprinters lane unless to pass an even slower rider.
I've seen riders go high to get out of the way...right into the path of the faster rider who was planning to overtake on the right. It is very difficult to judge the speed of a faster rider behind you when you are gassed and only getting glimpses of their speed with 1/2" glances over your shoulder.
As the saying goes, "When in doubt, hold your line."
02-21-18, 08:50 AM
#18
Elitist
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 15,965
Mentioned: 88 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1386 Post(s)
Liked 92 Times
in
77 Posts
This happens a lot in local racing.
It's my belief that if the rider doesn't remove themselves from the race when they are no longer competitive, it is the responsibility of the race director to pull them for the reasons stated above.
One unique thing about track racing is that the race director can communicate to the slower rider frequently during the race (a couple of times/minute). So, coaching is often given like, "NUMBER 69! [my old number, hehehe] You are about to be lapped. HOLD YOUR LINE."
On several occasions, I've seen the slower rider be overtaken on the home straight of a sprint lap with no issues.
There may even be small paceline packs of slower riders taking pulls together. This is when the race director will yell, "DON'T PULL OFF!! Stay down. You are being lapped." and the riders know to stay in formation until the faster rider(s) overtake them or the go into a turn and can look back and see if it's safe to pull up and get on the back of the paceline.
It's my belief that if the rider doesn't remove themselves from the race when they are no longer competitive, it is the responsibility of the race director to pull them for the reasons stated above.
One unique thing about track racing is that the race director can communicate to the slower rider frequently during the race (a couple of times/minute). So, coaching is often given like, "NUMBER 69! [my old number, hehehe] You are about to be lapped. HOLD YOUR LINE."
On several occasions, I've seen the slower rider be overtaken on the home straight of a sprint lap with no issues.
There may even be small paceline packs of slower riders taking pulls together. This is when the race director will yell, "DON'T PULL OFF!! Stay down. You are being lapped." and the riders know to stay in formation until the faster rider(s) overtake them or the go into a turn and can look back and see if it's safe to pull up and get on the back of the paceline.
02-21-18, 08:57 AM
#19
Elitist
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 15,965
Mentioned: 88 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1386 Post(s)
Liked 92 Times
in
77 Posts
The only time I like to see "madison rules" apply is when a rider is good enough to be lapped, recover, then get on the back of a competitive group of riders. This happens a lot in early season racing where fitness is hit or miss.
A rider may be gassed after early sprints, and either float around steady in the sprinters lane recovering, then SAFELY go to the boards and gain potential energy to jump on the back of a faster paceline that is coming underneath. The new rider should announce his/her presence saying, "WE ARE FIVE NOW!", letting the paceline know that they are now 5 instead of 4 long.
But, this is only in local training races. The rider above can't help pull in a real race. He/she can only sit on the back and play "gatekeeper" letting the faster riders in at the end of their pull. Lapped rider cannot take pulls for lead lap riders.
OK...maybe this isn't so simple, hahaha
A rider may be gassed after early sprints, and either float around steady in the sprinters lane recovering, then SAFELY go to the boards and gain potential energy to jump on the back of a faster paceline that is coming underneath. The new rider should announce his/her presence saying, "WE ARE FIVE NOW!", letting the paceline know that they are now 5 instead of 4 long.
But, this is only in local training races. The rider above can't help pull in a real race. He/she can only sit on the back and play "gatekeeper" letting the faster riders in at the end of their pull. Lapped rider cannot take pulls for lead lap riders.
OK...maybe this isn't so simple, hahaha
02-21-18, 10:16 AM
#20
Mmm cats
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Posts: 816
Bikes: Fuji Track Pro, Cinelli Strato Faster, Superb Sprint, Fuji Cross RC
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
I raced the one in London a couple years back. The organisation of the event was good but there were issues with some of the other riders. First there were some inexperienced racers - guys that were fit and could handle their bike on the street (and who were fast enough to qualify) but they had little prior crit or track racing experience. Racing in a bunch uses different skills and requires a different mentality and it is never a good idea throwing too many without that experience into the mix and then expecting the race to pass smoothly. Then there were the fixed gear crit specialists, super strong guys, but i found a minority of them to be overly aggressive particularly in the qualification laps. Ive ridden and raced with olympic and world champions but they've never been anything but approachable and friendly. They are not going to chop my front wheel or take risks that jeapordise safety because they see someone miles below them on cyclings hierarchy. So i really didnt appreciate the attitude from some guys acting like big shots and trying to bully riders out of their racing line by shouting and swearing loudly. They were TTTing the qualification laps while im doing the same solo and they come flying round the corner shouting to get out the f***** way because im on "their" racing line. Just no need for that and left a bad taste.
I think this is my similar reasoning for not bothering ever to do RHC. There's too much testosterone from guys who sure are fast, but trying to prove way too much so they can get some Instagram fame.
That and I'm pretty sure at this point I'd be more or less uncompetitive with my level of cycling fitness as a local top half Cat 4. I find it kind of off putting at this point in my life that they're throwing people together who have no business fitness wise or race handling to be in the same race, and we have all seen enough videos/result photos of what happens.
02-21-18, 10:48 AM
#21
Junior Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 136
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 21 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
If you're being lapped in a crit, you need to get out of the way. You're out of the race. They aren't. It is their line and their race. At that point, you're just a participant and a road block.
We had a similar discussion about this situation in scratch/points races a few months back. The consensus then was it was track dependent, but in most cases, you are to hold your line and they go around you -- Madison rules. But if fields are small, many tracks will tell dropped riders to go high, allowing the faster field to power around the sprint lane.
We had a similar discussion about this situation in scratch/points races a few months back. The consensus then was it was track dependent, but in most cases, you are to hold your line and they go around you -- Madison rules. But if fields are small, many tracks will tell dropped riders to go high, allowing the faster field to power around the sprint lane.
I wasnt being lapped this was the qualification - the gridding for the crit was based on fastest lap time. There was a time block for qualification and it was split into groups (of about 50 riders) and each group had about 25 minutes to get a lap time. You could get this after a single lap or you could have 10 attempts at it. You could go on in the first minute and attempt it or leave it to 5 minutes to go, it wasnt a mass start. So if i am on a hot lap i figure it's my line and my race and it is up to them to pass me safely.
For the actual crit part id agree with you but not for the qualification.
02-21-18, 10:53 AM
#22
Elitist
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 15,965
Mentioned: 88 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1386 Post(s)
Liked 92 Times
in
77 Posts
There is a lot of testosterone on the track, but the culture is different. I don't know enough about both sports to explain why they are different. But, I've heard from several people who participate in both that the difference are stark. I especially hear about amateur road racing culture being a "bro" culture and all too commonly an unfriendly environment.
That Instagram Fame is intoxicating!
02-21-18, 04:45 PM
#23
Senior Member
I saw an insta (oh the irony ) post that said "Oh the internet died and you're not a model or 'influencer' any more". So true that flashing some T&A on insta can get you plenty of followers and then some sort of social media influencer tag.
A fellow rider rates the 3 main cycle disciplines (sorry BMX) as:
Most friendly - MTB - they just want anyone and everyone to come and enjoy the sport and have a good time
Next - Track - similar to MTB but there can be some arrogance which dulls down the fun
Then - Road - way too many arrogant people in the sport at higher levels to call it too friendly
) post that said "Oh the internet died and you're not a model or 'influencer' any more". So true that flashing some T&A on insta can get you plenty of followers and then some sort of social media influencer tag.A fellow rider rates the 3 main cycle disciplines (sorry BMX) as:
Most friendly - MTB - they just want anyone and everyone to come and enjoy the sport and have a good time
Next - Track - similar to MTB but there can be some arrogance which dulls down the fun
Then - Road - way too many arrogant people in the sport at higher levels to call it too friendly
02-23-18, 11:40 AM
#24
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Michigan
Posts: 4,863
Bikes: too many of all kinds
Mentioned: 35 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1147 Post(s)
Liked 415 Times
in
335 Posts
True. I would throw the Cross guys in with the mountain bike. Some cross races (non UCI) are just about having fun.
Track has a community unlike the others. You are never far away from your fellow bikers. But mix people from different tracks, and the arrogance can be as bad as a road race.
Track has a community unlike the others. You are never far away from your fellow bikers. But mix people from different tracks, and the arrogance can be as bad as a road race.
02-23-18, 11:42 AM
#25
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Michigan
Posts: 4,863
Bikes: too many of all kinds
Mentioned: 35 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1147 Post(s)
Liked 415 Times
in
335 Posts
It's a crit on a fixed gear bike, raced by people who usually only race freewheel bikes. #1 thing you have to learn is that you can't take corners as fast on a fixed gear because you can't stop pedaling, so you can't rail the corner with your inside pedal up and out of the way. Nearly all crashes are clipped pedals because of this.
I'm scratching my head on this. Is it because the bottom bracket is too low on some bikes? With a 50mm drop, I can't clip a pedal on a 50 degree track (knock on velodrome wood). And, I have a FG bike with 70mm drop - that is painfully easy to clip a pedal on. But yeah, on a track bike I can power through any corner..