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Should we construct more velodromes in the United States?

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View Poll Results: Should we construct more velodromes in the United States?
Yes, we are lagging behind other countries!
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No, we're fine with the 28 velodrome we already got.
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Voters: 25. You may not vote on this poll

Should we construct more velodromes in the United States?

Old 04-09-18, 08:30 PM
  #26  
brawlo
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Over here in Oz we have a heap of circular shallow banked tracks built around the perimeter of sports ovals. I really think that is why we haven't suffered the same fate as the US with losing so many facilities. They're easy to maintain and easy for the public to use. The track provides a great surface away from traffic and walkers and runners for all comers to ride. Heaps of older riders and young kids use it. Trying to train on a nice winter's day is a flop because the public also likes to get out and take advantage of the facility
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Old 04-09-18, 09:32 PM
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This is a good conversation.

Satrain18, look in this thread to see why other racing cyclists don't ride the track more: Those who live near a velodrome, help us understand why you don't care to race there. I posted the question in the Road Racing forum asking why they don't race on the track more.

Many issues of which TD hit upon.

One point that I'm reluctant to want to change is the moderate barrier to entry being the certification course. I think that's key to keeping the sport safe.

It seems that CAT5 road racing is the "trial by fire" certification course for road racing...and it's fraught with wrecks, I think mostly due to two reasons:
- No rigorous certification class where riders learn what to expect and what is expected of them.
- The race director can't see all of the riders all of the time during the race.

Those 2 significant things help keep this sport from being more precarious.
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Old 04-09-18, 10:12 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by brawlo View Post
Over here in Oz we have a heap of circular shallow banked tracks built around the perimeter of sports ovals. I really think that is why we haven't suffered the same fate as the US with losing so many facilities. They're easy to maintain and easy for the public to use. The track provides a great surface away from traffic and walkers and runners for all comers to ride. Heaps of older riders and young kids use it. Trying to train on a nice winter's day is a flop because the public also likes to get out and take advantage of the facility
I'll throw in a couple of cents that haven't been mentioned yet. If we're talking about the US (and Canada, because we have the same problem), one of the things that the US and Canada have to deal with are freezing temps. A climate that dips below freezing will deteriorate an inexpensive, outdoor, shallow oval in about 10 years. This includes sealing cracks and chips as found. Frost heaves, expansion and contraction of the surface. Anyone that has ridden the old Win-Del track in southern Ontario will know what I'm talking about.

This track was built on graded, bermed, sandy soil, with just a 2-3 inch layer of asphalt. Volunteers and local farmers basically got together to shape this thing out with shovels, tractors, and 2x4's. It's about as cheap a track as can possibly be built. It's been around since the mid 80's. The local community was largely Dutch and Belgian, and so had a strong cycling community. They wanted a track, so they got together and built one. It's a great track to get beginners on, as the banking is only a max of about 22*. I used to track stand in the center of the banking. I also used to clip my pedal on the inside when going full tilt. It's a 250m track. As you can see from the photos, it was pretty well made when it was constructed. For the methods used, the level of workmanship was definitely maxed out. The only way to get a better result would have been to bring in professional contractors, and triple/quadruple the cost.

You can see how smooth it was when it was only a couple of years old. The pictures are about 20 years apart. There was a push to try and resurface the track by paving over the existing layer, but it was deemed to expensive to be feasible, and would yield unsatisfactory results.


Then




And "now"







For an outdoor facility to last, it needs to be built of at least concrete, and that drives the cost up. The cost can be reduced if you go for a 400-500m track because specialized techniques aren't required to build it. But it's still a lot of material to shell out for.

The old '96 Atlanta track in Bromont is definitely showing the wear and tear of the weather, and many of the original panels have been replaced with exterior grade plywood. If it had a bubble over it to begin with, those original panels would still be in pristine condition.

When it was "new"




A couple of years old


A little older still



And "now-ish"
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Old 04-09-18, 11:13 PM
  #29  
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On a related note, want to see what it took to build the track in Carson (LA)?: SCHÜRMANN VELODROMES, ADT EVENT CENTER CARSON / LOS ANGELES / USA

Getting the angles and the curves right on a track is part science and part alchemy/voodoo. Schurmann have built some of the finest tracks in the world. I also think they built Rock Hill's velodrome as well.

Schuermann Architects of Münster, Germany, is a dynasty of architects specialising in the design of velodromes, cycle tracks and indoor athletics tracks since 1925.

The Schuermann dynasty was founded by Clemens Schuermann (1888–1956), professional track cyclist and later architect, continued by his son Herbert Schuermann (1925–1994) and his grandson Ralph Schuermann (born 1953).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schuermann
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Old 04-10-18, 05:32 AM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by TDinBristol View Post
Forgive me, everyone. Longtime rider with no palmares who rode a lot of track a long time ago, then didn't for several decades, then came back and am enjoying it thoroughly at a late age.
The question of building velodromes - and what kind - seems to me to be an outcropping of some initial, important questions:
- How many people want to ride races that are very short?
- Are they willing to do the hard, painful training that requires?
Virtually every high school in the USA has a 400m running track, which sits unused 99% of the time. People come out and jog on them, walk their dogs, etc. The high-school track team trains a few hours a day for a stretch of weeks in the spring. But I know very few adults who participate, long-term, running 440s, 100s or the like. It's just too demanding. So right there is a small, self-selecting group, regardless of the facility. No offense to my 'gran fondo' friends, but riding hard for 3 hours is not nearly as taxing as riding at your absolute limit for 1, 2 or 3 minutes. But if people had more access to those short races, the sport might grow.
To build track cycling in this country, IMHO, you need access to more short races. Does anyone remember the Atlantic City Boardwalk sprints? Or grass-track cycling? Lots of easy ways of getting people into the sport of short races. If I recall my history, the 1960 Olympic track trials were held on a straightaway. Ask Jack Simes about that.
There's a difference between learning to race short distances and learning to ride a velodrome.
But that leads to the building of tracks.
What this country needs (other than "a good 5-cent cigar," as the old saying goes) are cheap, entry-level velodromes. Places where any rider can jump on the first time and not feel daunted. I've ridden Rock Hill many times, and it's a wonderful facility and a first-rate group of people managing it, but for non-track cyclists coming to have a look, that first glance is enough to walk away without ever trying it. I can only speculate on the number of lost chances on that first glance. Even experienced cyclists know that a crash on that track can be very, very serious.
But tracks with lower bankings and longer sweeps are not such a huge leap and don't nearly involve the money the Rock Hills require. The 250m, 45-degree track is built for world-class cyclists chasing world-class times, not newbies. They cost millions and largely go underused. I think the genius of T-Town was limiting the grade to 27 degrees - rideable by both the PeeWee Pedalers and the NZ National Team. I was once out there with both those groups on the track at the same time. And that, in itself, grows the sport. Dawkins, rolling at the top, exhorting some 9-year-old to "get on with it, then, get on with it!" as the kid churned to the finish line.
Dorais got built years ago by Mike Walden and a shoestring budget. In the early 80s, when I was riding at Dick Lane, the "lore and legend" was the builders had never even seen a velodrome - they'd just "looked at some photos." The track is a bunch of inlaid pre-cast concrete slabs dropped into the grade. Even when the track was nearly new, it had that undulating ride. But it was cheap, and it's still in use. But even there, and despite its teeming track-cycling scene, the banking is probably an inhibitor to people thinking about giving it a try. And the process of indemnity releases and limited access that go with the riskier tracks inhibits participation further: "We'd love to have you on our track, and enjoy the great sport of track cycling, but please take the two-day certification and then sign this form saying it's not our fault if you die or are maimed."
So I worry that US track cycling is extincting itself based on the perceived need for more state-of-the-art, expensive facilities, when maybe a larger body (USAC) could think about a network of "feeder events," "feeder tracks," "regional tracks" and "championship tracks" that work in concert.
Anyway, just two cents from a 2-bit rider. But when I hear $4 million and $5 million for a facility, I hear "unsustainable" because there just aren't that many people who can spend the time and effort to do this kind of racing, and the ones who might otherwise come forward would be too intimidated by those very tracks.
Here here. The Ttown example is a good one.

I want to see more concrete 333s on PUBLIC LAND.
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Old 04-10-18, 07:39 AM
  #31  
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Relevant to my point:

https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/...-city-stronger
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Old 04-11-18, 11:34 AM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by queerpunk View Post
the notion that they should be worthwhile, or financially sustainable just based on the input of their users, betrays exactly why we don't have more in the USA.

a lot of countries invest public money into athletic facilities, including velodromes - because having them and running them is socially beneficial.

we're so far gone in the usa that we don't expect public investment in cultural projects like this.
We spend our money. To paraphrase Dwight D. Eisenhower, The cost of one F35 is a Velodrome in 50 US Cities...

Edit, from someone who learned to ride on Dorais, great post by @TDinBristol !

Last edited by Voodoo76; 04-11-18 at 11:38 AM.
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Old 04-11-18, 11:42 AM
  #33  
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Portland Oregon has an outdoor track, Manchester England has an indoor track ..

in Europe the season for track Racing is the winter, Portland plays in the Mud, doing Cyclocross ,


Who has the most Olympic Medals for track racing events?





....
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Old 04-11-18, 12:45 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by fietsbob View Post
Portland Oregon has an outdoor track, Manchester England has an indoor track ..

in Europe the season for track Racing is the winter, Portland plays in the Mud, doing Cyclocross ,


Who has the most Olympic Medals for track racing events?





....
The country that has a lottery-funded national cycling program.

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Old 04-12-18, 02:09 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by queerpunk View Post
Well that's exactly the pro/con of it.

We've seen several of these tracks cropping up: 166m, because they're cheap. Plywood, because it's cheap; and no other accommodations, essentially. Maybe a trailer and a portapotty deposited on a piece of vacant land.

They're capable of turning a cycling scene with no track racing into a cycling scene with some track racing, but I have doubts that they're either optimized for beginners, or capable of contributing to a broader, nationwide track cycling scene. And both, I believe, are particularly important for really fertilizing track racing in the USA.

Yeah, there area about 4 tracks like this (166-200m) within 300 miles of me (3 in the last ~5 years). They cost about 100K (Assuming you can get a city to donate park space for you to use).

The chicago one tanked because it really didn't have the organized volunteer network it required.
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Old 04-12-18, 08:26 PM
  #36  
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Kissena is such a dissapointing example of how cities seem to simply refuse to invest in projects like velodromes. There are literally hundreds of racers that make it out to race at a crumbling, sinking track.

Multiple race organizers, multiple people working on securing funding, volunteers fighting with the city to make track repairs on their own dime.

How much could that already robust program grow if they got any significant help from the city?
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Old 04-15-18, 06:45 AM
  #37  
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Anybody wanna buy a velodrome ?

TXBRA.org = The Texas Bicycle Racing Association

If nobody does, then make that n-1 velodromes in the USA.
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Old 04-20-18, 09:24 AM
  #38  
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I think marine or exterior grade plywood with a steel understructure would be the cheapest option. The added bonuses is that it's easily transportable and doesn't require heavy machinery to build.
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Old 04-20-18, 09:54 AM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by satrain18 View Post
I think marine or exterior grade plywood with a steel understructure would be the cheapest option. The added bonuses is that it's easily transportable and doesn't require heavy machinery to build.
You still have to cover it if you want it to last and be low maintenance. Look at my post about the track in Bromont. You can pay that cost up front, or keep draining funds as you go along, trying to maintain the track.

Any venue with a large outlay is only going to get built if the ongoing costs are low enough to make a mainly self sustaining facility.

As part of an I door multiplex, the plywood sructure is a good fit. Outdoors, you're better off with concrete.

As far as transportable, that means that the undercarriage is going to have to be built in modules, to ensure accuracy in reconstruction. That means having a small crane on site.

Last edited by taras0000; 05-05-18 at 11:58 AM.
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Old 04-24-18, 03:14 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by satrain18 View Post
I think marine or exterior grade plywood with a steel understructure would be the cheapest option. The added bonuses is that it's easily transportable and doesn't require heavy machinery to build.
That is fundamentally how Dale's velodromes have been built (starting with the Atlanta Olympic one above in '98). We replace the panels every 10 years. Again, its about 100K, and yes, they are transportable.
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Old 05-05-18, 09:46 AM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by satrain18 View Post
Concrete for an olympic size velodrome(250 meters) is $22,000. So we're looking at $25,000-100,000 for the outdoor option. Indoor velodromes, on the other hand, are much more expensive, as their costs can easily go into the millions.
Things are more expensive than that, and using thin concrete for a velodrome can lead to problems and even disaster.

Contractor defends velodrome work | News | kenoshanews.com

Rick
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Old 05-05-18, 10:22 AM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by wagge View Post
Not easy to build a concrete radius at 34-44 deg and it has to be perfect.
I would think that we're getting very close to the point where the entire concrete structure can be laid down by a computer system. I'm sure there is still a lot of hand work such as laying rebar, but even that could be verified by computer before laying the concrete.

And we already have much of the technology already in use with the current highway and bridge construction, so it is not like one is starting from scratch.

Plus, design the computer system once, and one could lay down 100 new tracks with the same technology.

When I was in Portland, there appeared to be quite a few cracks in the concrete structure. Certainly not perfectly smooth. I presume sometime the whole thing will need to be torn out and replaced.
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Old 05-05-18, 12:03 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post

When I was in Portland, there appeared to be quite a few cracks in the concrete structure. Certainly not perfectly smooth. I presume sometime the whole thing will need to be torn out and replaced.

Nope. Use the existing base as a foundationd. Drill into it and secure new re-bar, and lay down a layer over top of the old one. The drilling can be done by unskilled labour, keeping costs down, and the old foundation tied to the new layer will strengthen the whole structure. The only thing preventing this and causing a total rebuild is whether the ground would be able to support the additional weight, and that's just the cost of a geomatics survey, so a couple of thousand dollars.
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Old 05-05-18, 12:24 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by taras0000 View Post
Nope. Use the existing base as a foundationd. Drill into it and secure new re-bar, and lay down a layer over top of the old one. The drilling can be done by unskilled labour, keeping costs down, and the old foundation tied to the new layer will strengthen the whole structure. The only thing preventing this and causing a total rebuild is whether the ground would be able to support the additional weight, and that's just the cost of a geomatics survey, so a couple of thousand dollars.
Hmmm...

If one scabs say 6" of concrete on top, then that would decrease the length of the course by about 3 feet...

Unless one also raises the Apron by 6" which might even out the dimensions. So then the track just becomes narrower.
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Old 05-05-18, 07:06 PM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
Hmmm...

If one scabs say 6" of concrete on top, then that would decrease the length of the course by about 3 feet...

Unless one also raises the Apron by 6" which might even out the dimensions. So then the track just becomes narrower.
Track doesn't need to become narrower. You raise the apron and "crib" the top to retain the concrete. All that happens is the new track, with the exact same dimensions, gets laid over the old track. Nothing changes, except maybe the guardrail at the top if that isn't raised either.
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Old 05-06-18, 09:59 AM
  #46  
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Apparently there's an *indoor* one in the works at Albright College in Reading PA!
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Old 05-06-18, 10:06 AM
  #47  
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USA has fewer Track olympic medals than places with winter racing & training, inside, on velodromes ..

a Portland developer wanted to build a Private Casino on land that was a dog racing track ..

It was on the Ballot, voted down, which had me thinking why an outdoor track only usable in the summer in a rainy place..



...

Last edited by fietsbob; 05-06-18 at 10:12 AM.
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Old 05-06-18, 02:33 PM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by fietsbob View Post
...which had me thinking why an outdoor track only usable in the summer in a rainy place..

...
Portland, where it rains more than most cities in the US and has a vibrant cycling community that is larger (per capita) than probably any other in the US: Outdoor Velodrome

Carson, CA (LA), where it rains less than most cities in the US: Indoor Velodrome

I know it's not that simple...but it is a head-scratcher
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