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Zipp 900 Disk - Tubular Tyre Choice and Width for TT/Pursuit and Concrete or Wood

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Zipp 900 Disk - Tubular Tyre Choice and Width for TT/Pursuit and Concrete or Wood

Old 05-19-18, 11:05 PM
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Zipp 900 Disk - Tubular Tyre Choice and Width for TT/Pursuit and Concrete or Wood

What are the Zipp 900 track disk wheel users using for tyres here for TT/pursuit and concrete tracks? (Brand/width)
I have a Vittoria Evo CS on mine now, 19mm. I tested it at Jerry Baker/Marymoor last week and it felt fine, but I'm worried about longevity and punctures on the apron...lots of little sharp rocks, etc.

I'm a major Conti fan, and use them on both my road and TT bike, so I'm considering the Podium TT or Tempo II, something I can train and race on, concrete or wood --- sort of an all rounder TT/pursuit tire if such a thing exists. I'm willing to accept the tradeoffs for the convenience of not having to mount a new tyre for every race.

Also, what's the impact of putting a 22mm tyre on this wheel? The max width of this wheel's rim is 21mm

K-
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Old 05-20-18, 08:15 AM
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I'm not using Zipp (on Corima at the moment), but we're using Conti Sprinters for the concrete UCI racing this summer. I have two spares pre-glued ready to go in case of punctures etc.
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Old 05-20-18, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by southernfox View Post
I'm not using Zipp (on Corima at the moment), but we're using Conti Sprinters for the concrete UCI racing this summer. I have two spares pre-glued ready to go in case of punctures etc.
Cool. I saw a guy using those at Merrymoor last week. He seemed happy with them.
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Old 05-20-18, 07:41 PM
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If you've got the money to spend, either the Podiums or the Tempos have tons of advantages over Sprinters. For the past few years I've used Tempos on shallow tracks, steeps tracks, outdoor ones and indoor ones, concrete and wood, and I've been VERY happy with them. Tempos are nicer than Podiums; Podiums are a bit more durable.
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Old 05-21-18, 06:55 AM
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I've been using Conti Sprinters or GP4000s or Vittoria Corsa Evo or Corsa Elite

The Sprinters and Elites are going to be a bit slower than either the GP4000 or the Evos. But they are are cheaper and a bit more durable.

That said, I've been using them not because I am looking for some specific advantage from the tires, but that is what I have. Shop was going out of business, so I got to stock up on tubulars at the shop cost.
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Old 05-24-18, 09:29 AM
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My last question must have slipped through center crack, so I'll re-post here.

The Zipp 900 track disk measures 20.32mm at the brake track, measuring 21mm at max. I received this directly from ZIpp tech.
What is the guideline on going above this with a tire? Can I put a 22mm TT Podium or Tempo II on this disk? Or do I need to go with the 19mm?
And if I can do either, what impact would this have on TT/pursuit vs. using the disk for sprinting or a scratch race? I preference would be to go with 19mm for TT/Pursuit, but not sure about anything mass start related where I'm going to be all over the place and not just the sprint lane.
I'm 174lbs.

Kris
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Old 05-24-18, 09:43 AM
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I run a 23 on mine, and I've used it for mass starts, sprints, and TTs.
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Old 05-24-18, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by krispenhartung View Post
My last question must have slipped through center crack, so I'll re-post here.

The Zipp 900 track disk measures 20.32mm at the brake track, measuring 21mm at max. I received this directly from ZIpp tech.
What is the guideline on going above this with a tire? Can I put a 22mm TT Podium or Tempo II on this disk? Or do I need to go with the 19mm?
And if I can do either, what impact would this have on TT/pursuit vs. using the disk for sprinting or a scratch race? I preference would be to go with 19mm for TT/Pursuit, but not sure about anything mass start related where I'm going to be all over the place and not just the sprint lane.
I'm 174lbs.

Kris
...of course you can put a 22mm or 23mm on it. You could put a 25mm on it. The issue is that you need to know the *minimum* tire diameter you need to put on it.
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Old 05-24-18, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by krispenhartung View Post
My last question must have slipped through center crack, so I'll re-post here.

The Zipp 900 track disk measures 20.32mm at the brake track, measuring 21mm at max. I received this directly from ZIpp tech.
What is the guideline on going above this with a tire? Can I put a 22mm TT Podium or Tempo II on this disk? Or do I need to go with the 19mm?
And if I can do either, what impact would this have on TT/pursuit vs. using the disk for sprinting or a scratch race? I preference would be to go with 19mm for TT/Pursuit, but not sure about anything mass start related where I'm going to be all over the place and not just the sprint lane.
I'm 174lbs.

Kris
From an aerodynamics perspective, ideally you want the max tire width to be slightly narrower than the max width of the disc/rim. That's why modern wheels have gotten wider, to accommodate wider tires and still perform well aerodymically.

That said, tire width has much greater aero impact on the front wheel than it does the rear wheel, especially if if the rear wheel is shielded by the down tube. So I probably wouldn't go 19mm on the back for concrete tracks, because the better rolling resistance of a wider tire would probably outweigh the aero hit. If you can find a fast 22mm that might be a good compromise.
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Old 05-24-18, 06:20 PM
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I think 22 is the sweet spot. Especially as most of the rider's weight on on that tire. The extra width provides peace of mind when riding slowly.

I can't imagine that there are any aero losses going from 19 to 22mm on the rear disc. The ability to rider slower (even if just in warmup) is a benefit. I guess a 22 would be heavier than 19mm, though.

I've used 19mm on a Zipp 900 disc with a not-wide rim bed (circa 2008). Promptly removed it and put on Conti Steher 22 and was very happy...until I got random flats with several of them.
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Old 05-24-18, 07:45 PM
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In all my experiences with tires, once I settled on 23mm on the rear, I never went to a narrower tire. 25mm for steeper tracks, but 23mm was my happy spot in the back. Better low speed handling, more predictable, and less skipping. Going from 19mm to 23mm is an 18% increase in width. Your contact patch not only widens, but also lengthens when you go to a wider tire given the same PSI. If you drop the PSI, you can maintain the same rolling resistance and increase this contact patch even more. You would have to fiddle with the pressure, but decreasing PSI 5-10% allows you to maintain the same rolling resistance (this is ball-park math). This slight drop in pressure can double your contact patch. The aero differences would most likely be immeasurable, but the traction you gain can certain be felt. This was always my opinion. The front wheel is more aero, so let its job be aero, and the back wheel is for laying down power.

Despite all that, 23mm just felt better and allowed me to ride at a lower speed, and that goes a long way in opening up your tactical toolbox for sprinting. For pursuit, you can try to go as minimal as possible without any detrimental effects. For a Kilo/500 I would want a bigger contact patch just for the start, and for Mass start racing, I would want that contact patch as well.

Just some info to chew on to help dial in your decision.
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Old 05-27-18, 10:57 PM
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
I think 22 is the sweet spot. Especially as most of the rider's weight on on that tire. The extra width provides peace of mind when riding slowly.

I can't imagine that there are any aero losses going from 19 to 22mm on the rear disc. The ability to rider slower (even if just in warmup) is a benefit. I guess a 22 would be heavier than 19mm, though.

I've used 19mm on a Zipp 900 disc with a not-wide rim bed (circa 2008). Promptly removed it and put on Conti Steher 22 and was very happy...until I got random flats with several of them.
Awesome. Thanks for all the replies and tips! I've settled on the Coni Tempo IIs 22mm for both my Fuji Track Elite stock wheels and my Zipp 900.

I just wrapped up a 2 week whirlwind crash course and training on track cycling, took both the Aspenrose and Jerry Baker track classes, blasted through my Cat 5 races, upgraded after two (guess I was well behaved, ha ha), and finished my first two day Omnium and TT races this weekend at Jerry Baker. I rode my BMC Trackmachine TM02 with HED tri-spokes on it (Conti Grand Prix 4000s 23mm on back and Conti Attack 22mm on front) and it handled quite well, once I got rid of my death grip to stop the front wheel shaking around the corners. ;-) I would have been great to ride the Track Elite with the Zipp 900 disk on the mass start races...next time. I also so a lot of the Cat 1s there using Vittoria Corsa Speeds. Zak Kovalcik was an animal..fun watching him attack on the last lap, as if he had a new gear up his sleeve.
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Old 05-27-18, 11:29 PM
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This is awesome to hear!

Understand that your speed will simply come from comfort more than equipment/wheels for the first few weeks. Seriously.

Tension raises your heart rate and uses a significant amount of energy. Also, when muscles are under tension, they don't allow good blood flow and recovery. You'll relax more as you experience more.

Also, you don't wanna be "that guy" in beginner races with fancy race wheels. They don't matter in beginner races. Even if the races are close (they usually are not), because beginner race results are not about final place in the race, it's about demonstrating good behavior and skills. Race wheels will be a distraction and attract undue attention to you. It's kinda like taking your Porsche 911 to use for your driver's license driving test. Your Honda Civic is more appropriate

Maybe use them for time trials, but not bunch races. But you'll make the same progressions with time trials as well as you learn to relax more.

You'll get faster by simply riding the track. Time on task. Butt in the saddle. Learning to ride the curves. Learning to draft. Learning to sprint and recover. Learning to ride in close proximity to others. All while being relaxed.

FWIW, nice wheels don't matter as much in mass start races anyway, as you spend most of your time in someone else's slipstream...if you are doing it right

Also, watch when you can't race. Even come to races that are above your category and learn the different races and see how different riders race them....for better AND worse.

I know you are an equipment nerd, so this may be all for naught, hahaha.
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Old 05-28-18, 02:27 PM
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Very cool, and thank you! Good tips! Yes, Iím a gear nerd for sure, but Iím also a process and performance improvement consultant by trade and profession, so Iím all about learning, improving, and eliminating waste. :-). At track class, I was one of only ďroadiesĒ who listened to the instructor and didnít do my standing start like a roadie in a 200m sprint. I donít see the point in paying for a class, taking up the time of the instructors, and committing to learning something if none of the advice is applied. The only unfortunate thing is that I am 7 hours from the nearest Velodrome, which really bums me out. So Iím going to have to get creative in how I train in between visits, until my kids are out of school and I can relocate. Iíd train on the Velodrome daily if I lived there.
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Old 05-28-18, 02:28 PM
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Regarding tension and relaxation, it's not uncommon for riders to ride flying 200s all season in training and racing up until their big event, like Nationals, only to come home after the event and ride a faster time. This is generally because the rider has a "Screw it. This doesn't matter." attitude and is simply more relaxed.

My PB F200 times at two different tracks happened when I was in such a mood. Once was after Nationals and the other was when I was late and rushed and assumed that my non-warmup would render a booty time anyway. Both rides were on training wheels.

Super F*ck It = Super Fast.

The body is weird like that.
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Old 05-28-18, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by krispenhartung View Post
Very cool, and thank you! Good tips! Yes, Iím a gear nerd for sure, but Iím also a process and performance improvement consultant by trade and profession, so Iím all about learning, improving, and eliminating waste. :-). At track class, I was one of only ďroadiesĒ who listened to the instructor and didnít do my standing start like a roadie in a 200m sprint. I donít see the point in paying for a class, taking up the time of the instructors, and committing to learning something if none of the advice is applied. The only unfortunate thing is that I am 7 hours from the nearest Velodrome, which really bums me out. So Iím going to have to get creative in how I train in between visits, until my kids are out of school and I can relocate. Iíd train on the Velodrome daily if I lived there.
Your situation isn't uncommon on the Masters scene...or Elite scene for that matter.

I would suggest making the primary focus of your limited track time to be simply getting laps in at various speeds.

Maybe if you can arrange it, see if you can schedule 2 consecutive days at a time at the track. One day for training and one day for racing (or vice-versa). For example, TTown races Masters on Saturday afternoons (or used to) and I knew guys who would drive up on Saturday morning and race the afternoon session, spend the night at a hotel, train Sunday morning during open track, then drive home. That's a fair amount of volume and intensity on the track.

Also, if you can, have someone video you doing some time trials to track your progress. You can time yourself from the computer later. You don't want someone timing you and simply giving you a time. They may not be experienced timers and log your 12.0" flying 200 as a 12.9"...it has happened...a lot
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Old 05-28-18, 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
Your situation isn't uncommon on the Masters scene...or Elite scene for that matter.

I would suggest making the primary focus of your limited track time to be simply getting laps in at various speeds.

Maybe if you can arrange it, see if you can schedule 2 consecutive days at a time at the track. One day for training and one day for racing (or vice-versa). For example, TTown races Masters on Saturday afternoons (or used to) and I knew guys who would drive up on Saturday morning and race the afternoon session, spend the night at a hotel, train Sunday morning during open track, then drive home. That's a fair amount of volume and intensity on the track.

Also, if you can, have someone video you doing some time trials to track your progress. You can time yourself from the computer later. You don't want someone timing you and simply giving you a time. They may not be experienced timers and log your 12.0" flying 200 as a 12.9"...it has happened...a lot
I'm currently attempting to muster up the mental capacity to drive to Jerry Baker every other week, starting in 2 weeks, for their Wednesday night upgrade races, without missing work. It will be a 40 hour ordeal, 16 hours of driving, working remotely during the day, and pulling off an all nighter with 2 hours of sleep before work. :-) I may try to pull it off until Fred's Race -- their regional championship race. This will give me a consistent stream of time on the track.
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Old 07-13-18, 04:16 PM
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Many thanks again for the tips and recommendation on the Conti Tempo II. I put the 22s on my Fuji Track Elite wheels and my Zipp 900 disk, but this last Wednesday at JBV I decided to ditch the HED tri-spokes with Conti clinchers on my BMC trackmachine 02 (which I am currently using for mass start races until I upgrade) and try out the wheels with the Tempo IIs on the Fuji Elite....wow! From those clinchers at 115 psi to the Tempo IIs at 160psi in back and 155psi in front, it felt like night and day! I don't know if I was faster, but I felt faster and the tires felt more reactive, less mushy, more precise, less work going up track. I won my first Omnium as well, though I don't think I can give the new tires credit for that. And I did my first Keirin, which was fun.
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Old 07-14-18, 02:41 PM
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I have another question on this Zipp 900 rear disk. So, when the wheel is on and secure, if I grasp the wheel and attempt to move it left and right, I feel a bit of play in the wheel, enough to hear it. I didn't think that seemed normal (or maybe it is), so I took the wheel off and attempted to tighten the black, collar like contraption that screws in or out and is secured with a tiny hex bolt (see attached image). I loosened the small hex bolt and was able to tighten the collar so that there no more play; however, after that it seems like the axle did not spin as freely, which seems would add resistance to the wheel. So I had to back it off, which brings back the tiny bit of play in the wheel. Is this normal?

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Old 07-14-18, 07:55 PM
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'You want a SMALL bit of play in the wheel's bearings. Not so much that it's audible, that's way too much. You basically want to start at that looseness, and just keep tightening it incrementally until the play almost disappears. This is when your wheels will roll the most freely without any slop to induce damage to the races.
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Old 07-14-18, 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by taras0000 View Post
'You want a SMALL bit of play in the wheel's bearings. Not so much that it's audible, that's way too much. You basically want to start at that looseness, and just keep tightening it incrementally until the play almost disappears. This is when your wheels will roll the most freely without any slop to induce damage to the races.
Gotcha. Thanks!
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