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-   -   Stiff frames (https://www.bikeforums.net/track-cycling-velodrome-racing-training-area/1196544-stiff-frames.html)

itturriko 03-25-20 04:43 PM

Stiff frames
 
I'm a new track cyclist.
I was a 400m hurdles athlete but due to injuries I was forced to quit.
I did a test with a coach and he thought i was able to compete on sprint events. I did 14.0 on my first ever standing 150m start.
I have an aluminium BMC trackmachine 02(I will post the picture as soon as I can post them) but it's not as stiff as I could like.
My budget is 3000 dollar more or less to buy a frame.
I saw that the Cervelo T4 is around 2800 in some stores.
Is it stiff enough for me? because I saw that pros only use it for Omnium.
Any other stiff frame?

Thank you all!

Clythio 03-25-20 05:04 PM

Fuji Track Elite
 
Perfect and affordable. Sprinter thing
If painted "LOOK" instead of "Fuji" would cost $4000...

carleton 03-25-20 07:39 PM

Cervelo T4 is not a sprint bike. I don't think I've ever seen a sprinter use one. Mostly Bobby Lea in mass start and Omnium.

I'd pass. For $2,800 you can get a really stiff aluminum bike, wheels, cranks, and other kit.

Edit: Lea not Livingston

brawlo 03-25-20 08:26 PM

How tall are you? Bigger frames mean you need to be more picky. Smaller frames are pretty much all stiff enough.

I'd take a look at good quality 2nd hand frames to start with. Inevitably you will want a new frame down the road with different characteristics to suit your size and ride style, so save your big spend for that one.

Morelock 03-26-20 05:30 AM

I'd agree with most of the above. The T4 is definitely not a sprinters bike. The Fuji does make a lot of sense for budget sprint bike (if the geometry works for you) if you want a carbon bike. Like Carleton says, plenty of good alum choices below that budget as well.

at $2800 you aren't super far off finding a used BT or LOOK... that's kind of the sprinters delight.

itturriko 03-26-20 07:34 AM


Originally Posted by brawlo (Post 21383920)
How tall are you? Bigger frames mean you need to be more picky. Smaller frames are pretty much all stiff enough.

I'd take a look at good quality 2nd hand frames to start with. Inevitably you will want a new frame down the road with different characteristics to suit your size and ride style, so save your big spend for that one.

I'm 1,74m tall

Now I have a aluminium BMC trackmachine 02 and FFWD 9T wheels.
We are very lucky and if someone wants to compete, we have some disc and 5 spoke wheels, so I don't need to buy them. The only bike part I need is a good frame.

I saw that Lasse Norman Hansen made 1'01" in the Kilo and 13,4 in the 250m flying lap with the T4 so I think it is stiff enough for me but I don't know why people only use it on endurance.
Cervelo sais that they improved the stiffness of the Bottom Bracket.

The Fuji is a really nice bike but they'd lost a lot of retailers in Spain and it's almost imposible to buy it. The only size 54 I found was 2100€ and not available.

I found also a BMC TR01 frameset in 3300, maybe it worths.

I tried to buy an Argon 18 electron pro but here in Europe it costs 6600€.

LOOK, Pinarello and Ridley are also too expensive

topflightpro 03-26-20 09:21 AM

Dolan's are popular among sprinters, and generally much more affordable than the T4. (Assuming it fits.)

brawlo 03-26-20 04:35 PM


Originally Posted by itturriko (Post 21384321)
I'm 1,74m tall

Now I have a aluminium BMC trackmachine 02 and FFWD 9T wheels.
We are very lucky and if someone wants to compete, we have some disc and 5 spoke wheels, so I don't need to buy them. The only bike part I need is a good frame.

I saw that Lasse Norman Hansen made 1'01" in the Kilo and 13,4 in the 250m flying lap with the T4 so I think it is stiff enough for me but I don't know why people only use it on endurance.
Cervelo sais that they improved the stiffness of the Bottom Bracket.

The Fuji is a really nice bike but they'd lost a lot of retailers in Spain and it's almost imposible to buy it. The only size 54 I found was 2100€ and not available.

I found also a BMC TR01 frameset in 3300, maybe it worths.

I tried to buy an Argon 18 electron pro but here in Europe it costs 6600€.

LOOK, Pinarello and Ridley are also too expensive

That seems to me like you are looking at new only? If so, divert some attention to the 2nd hand market across Europe. Cervelo is a good frame no doubt, but it just isn't up to the same stiffness standards as many of the other options aimed at sprinters. Just take a look at how long it took Cervelo to come to terms with the stiffness/strength requirements of the GB sprint squad with the T5. Felt and Dolan are very good options that are (or should be) relatively cheap as well as the other options mentioned above. You should definitely be able to find a 2nd hand look that fits in your price range

itturriko 03-26-20 05:52 PM


Originally Posted by brawlo (Post 21385214)
That seems to me like you are looking at new only? If so, divert some attention to the 2nd hand market across Europe. Cervelo is a good frame no doubt, but it just isn't up to the same stiffness standards as many of the other options aimed at sprinters. Just take a look at how long it took Cervelo to come to terms with the stiffness/strength requirements of the GB sprint squad with the T5. Felt and Dolan are very good options that are (or should be) relatively cheap as well as the other options mentioned above. You should definitely be able to find a 2nd hand look that fits in your price range

Unfortunately here in Spain there is no such second-hand culture. People normally tries to cheat.
Last week I tried to contact a guy with a LOOK R96 and it was a chinese falsification with no serial number.
Felt is also very expensive in Spain.

About Dolan, they’re now selling the DF4 but I saw a really nice DF5 prototype with an integrated stem(it was used by a world cup participant). I asked to Dolan and my size is not available until june due to the Covid19, so I will meditate about it.

gycho77 03-26-20 06:29 PM


Originally Posted by itturriko (Post 21385333)
Unfortunately here in Spain there is no such second-hand culture. People normally tries to cheat.
Last week I tried to contact a guy with a LOOK R96 and it was a chinese falsification with no serial number.
Felt is also very expensive in Spain.

About Dolan, they’re now selling the DF4 but I saw a really nice DF5 prototype with an integrated stem(it was used by a world cup participant). I asked to Dolan and my size is not available until june due to the Covid19, so I will meditate about it.

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...b1c9b8383.jpeg
If you are talking about this frame, do not buy it. It’s just a chinese open mold track frame. And I actually saw few company saying “they developed” this frame.
i think Dolan DF4 is a good option.

BTW i am 174cm and ride 56cm toptube track frame with 130mm stem + look handlebar.

700wheel 03-26-20 08:10 PM


Originally Posted by itturriko (Post 21384321)
…………………...
I saw that Lasse Norman Hansen made 1'01" in the Kilo and 13,4 in the 250m flying lap with the T4 so I think it is stiff enough for me but I don't know why people only use it on endurance.
Cervelo sais that they improved the stiffness of the Bottom Bracket.
…………………...

There was a post on this forum recently explaining that some Cervelo bikes ridden by top riders are different than those available in stores.

Also many riders here do not like aero seat tubes ( aero posts in general can slip or if broken, can be hard to replace).

Baby Puke 03-26-20 09:24 PM

Find an old Dolan DF3 if you can. If not, I vouch for the DF4 despite it's fidgety seatpost.

carleton 03-27-20 03:13 AM

itturriko, understand that you will probably choose a frame that isn't the best size for you as your first frame. This is a common mistake.

I suggest don't spend a lot of money on your first few frames until you find the perfect geometry for you. The problem with buying an expensive frame is that you feel obligated to use it. Now what if that expensive frame is too small?

You are a new racer. A fancy frame won't be the difference between winning and losing in your races for a very long time. If you will win on a top-tier frame you will win on a steel frame. If you lose on a steel frame, you will lose on a top-tier frame.

Also, it's very difficult to be the guy in the beginner classes with the $10,000 bike. You will attract a lot of unnecessary attention.

I've had many of the top frames and the performance differences were very small between all of them. Proper size and fit were the most important factors in me going faster.

ruudlaff 03-27-20 03:54 AM


Originally Posted by carleton (Post 21385795)
itturriko, understand that you will probably choose a frame that isn't the best size for you as your first frame. This is a common mistake.

I suggest don't spend a lot of money on your first few frames until you find the perfect geometry for you. The problem with buying an expensive frame is that you feel obligated to use it. Now what if that expensive frame is too small?

You are a new racer. A fancy frame won't be the difference between winning and losing in your races for a very long time. If you will win on a top-tier frame you will win on a steel frame. If you lose on a steel frame, you will lose on a top-tier frame.

Also, it's very difficult to be the guy in the beginner classes with the $10,000 bike. You will attract a lot of unnecessary attention.

I've had many of the top frames and the performance differences were very small between all of them. Proper size and fit were the most important factors in me going faster.

This, especially if there isn't much of a second hand market for frames in Spain.

If you must buy a frame now, get the Dolan DF4. So stiff, relatively local, cheap. Ticks just about every box.

itturriko 03-27-20 07:01 AM


Originally Posted by carleton (Post 21385795)
itturriko, understand that you will probably choose a frame that isn't the best size for you as your first frame. This is a common mistake.

I suggest don't spend a lot of money on your first few frames until you find the perfect geometry for you. The problem with buying an expensive frame is that you feel obligated to use it. Now what if that expensive frame is too small?

How can I choose a good size for me? I have a 54 Merida Reacto and the BMC Trackmachine is Size M 545 and 558mm top tupe length respectively
I'm 1,74 tall and 85cm inseam length

2500W 03-27-20 07:30 AM

itturriko, Size does not mean much. Just use some bike geometry calculator (also called Stack and Reach Calculator), for instance bikegeo.net . Find the exact stack and reach of your current frame and try to ride it completed with different stems and/or bars set on different positions. Then you should establish your best performance position -- where should position your cleats/feets, ass, shouders and hands while sprint.

Then insert the data of your best fitting and start to compare it with any prefered frame (carbon, alloy etc.) completed with some suitable stem and bar to verify or not whether it has a geometry suitable for you.

Then you could check out many existing reputable EU online shops e.g. Bike24, Bike Components, Bike Discount, Bike Mailorder, Chain Reaction, All 4 Cycling, Cicli Mattio etc., etc. to find your best option at the best price.

2500W 03-27-20 09:30 AM

For example, here is comparison between two top frames of the nominal size M:

Look T20: Stack 520mm; and Reach 427mm (Look T20 Geometry Chart)

Koga Kinsei: Stack 489mm; and Reach 453mm (Koga Kinsei Geometry Chart)

So roughly 3cm difference in any direction could be considerable.

topflightpro 03-27-20 09:44 AM

itturriko, where in Spain are you? I may know someone local who can help you.

carleton 03-27-20 05:28 PM


Originally Posted by itturriko (Post 21385973)
How can I choose a good size for me? I have a 54 Merida Reacto and the BMC Trackmachine is Size M 545 and 558mm top tupe length respectively
I'm 1,74 tall and 85cm inseam length

To be honest, you can't do it based on what manufacturers print on their websites. You can get close, but it will really come down to you riding each...for a long time. And swapping out stems and bars etc...

It's a journey that every racer has been on. Some luck up and get it right with their first bike. Many do not. Here is a history of my frames and sizes:

"58cm" PlanetX
"57cm" Tiemeyer
"58cm" Dolan DF3
"57cm" Felt TK1
"57cm" Tiemeyer
"56cm" LOOK 496
repeat: "58cm" Tiemeyer
"61cm" custom steel frame (best fit, fastest fit, absolutely best frame for the money)
"60cm" Felt TK-FRD (fancy bike)

Can you imagine how much money I spent on all of those? Too much.


...and I didn't win anything bigger than elite state or regional racing championships. No masters nationals or masters worlds.

2500W 03-28-20 09:25 AM


Originally Posted by carleton (Post 21386929)
...
...
"61cm" custom steel frame (best fit, fastest fit, absolutely best frame for the money)
...

So lets talk about these guys of Kory York:

Primo SC Frameset, Columbus oversize steel, some 1000 Euro basic price, just 100 Euro more for customisation

itturriko 03-28-20 10:34 AM


Originally Posted by carleton (Post 21386929)
"58cm" PlanetX
"57cm" Tiemeyer
"58cm" Dolan DF3
"57cm" Felt TK1
"57cm" Tiemeyer
"56cm" LOOK 496
repeat: "58cm" Tiemeyer
"61cm" custom steel frame (best fit, fastest fit, absolutely best frame for the money)
"60cm" Felt TK-FRD (fancy bike)

:O

That's a nice collection!
I've been calculating the reach and stack and I think I'll try the DF4 definitely.

Anyway, my main objective is to compete at a local level, and if possible, level up.
We have a very nice velodrome here in Donostia and it's never crowded in the morning when I train.

I found the pictures of the new DF5 I'll post them as soon as I reach the minimum 10 posts.

SynergyPro 03-28-20 12:15 PM

Have you checked out the S1neo FP03 supposedly designed with input from Francois Pervis. French brand, available direct and withinyour price range.

by the way, the new koga is really really long!

itturriko 03-29-20 06:37 AM


Originally Posted by SynergyPro (Post 21388048)
Have you checked out the S1neo FP03 supposedly designed with input from Francois Pervis. French brand, available direct and withinyour price range.

by the way, the new koga is really really long!

I've heard that S1neo were using chinese frames, but I don't know if it's true but they look really nice

Poppit 03-29-20 10:23 AM


Originally Posted by itturriko (Post 21389159)
I've heard that S1neo were using chinese frames, but I don't know if it's true but they look really nice

They’re supposed to be a bit twitchy

Deef1908 03-29-20 10:50 AM


Originally Posted by SynergyPro (Post 21388048)
Have you checked out the S1neo FP03 supposedly designed with input from Francois Pervis. French brand, available direct and withinyour price range.

by the way, the new koga is really really long!

I have seen these frames are have a few hundred euros discount at the moment

i m curious to how this ride ? Anyone had or rode one of these ?


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