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Update to UCI saddle setback rule?

Old 08-02-20, 06:21 PM
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Baby Puke
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Update to UCI saddle setback rule?

I was at a race last weekend, and the officials were saying all saddles regardless of event had to be 50mm behind the BB axle. I said, "nuh-uh", and he said a new rule was taking effect. He let people through with out enforcing it, but said next time it will be enforced. Nobody I talked to had heard of this.

Is there any truth to this?

I just checked the rulebook (updated 4/5/20) and it still reads thusly:ďThe peak of the saddle shall be a minimum of 5 cm to the rear of a vertical plane passing through the bottom bracket spindle. This restriction shall not be applied to the bicycle ridden by a rider in a sprint event on track (flying 200 m, flying lap, sprint, team sprint, keirin, 500 metres and 1 kilometre); however, in no circumstances shall the peak of the saddle extend in front of a vertical line passing through the bottom bracket spindle."
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Old 08-03-20, 07:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Baby Puke View Post
I was at a race last weekend, and the officials were saying all saddles regardless of event had to be 50mm behind the BB axle. I said, "nuh-uh", and he said a new rule was taking effect. He let people through with out enforcing it, but said next time it will be enforced. Nobody I talked to had heard of this.

Is there any truth to this?

I just checked the rulebook (updated 4/5/20) and it still reads thusly:ďThe peak of the saddle shall be a minimum of 5 cm to the rear of a vertical plane passing through the bottom bracket spindle. This restriction shall not be applied to the bicycle ridden by a rider in a sprint event on track (flying 200 m, flying lap, sprint, team sprint, keirin, 500 metres and 1 kilometre); however, in no circumstances shall the peak of the saddle extend in front of a vertical line passing through the bottom bracket spindle."
5cm rule might apply if you are in Japan and Korea.
in South Korea, all track sprinters have to set back their saddle 5cm. We tried talking to Korea Cycling Association, it didnít work.
So this rule might apply to Japan too.
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Old 08-03-20, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by gycho77 View Post
5cm rule might apply if you are in Japan and Korea.
in South Korea, all track sprinters have to set back their saddle 5cm. We tried talking to Korea Cycling Association, it didnít work.
So this rule might apply to Japan too.
Was there any justification given? This official said there was a rule change, but as far as I can tell, that is untrue. This is gonna play havoc with the position of 100% of the sprinters I know.
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Old 08-03-20, 09:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Baby Puke View Post
Was there any justification given? This official said there was a rule change, but as far as I can tell, that is untrue. This is gonna play havoc with the position of 100% of the sprinters I know.
no justification at all.
We showed them the UCI rule and they said it doesnít matter. And they also mentioned that they cannot change it because many athletes already changed their saddle location, so by changing back to 0 setback will be unfair.
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Old 08-03-20, 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted by gycho77 View Post
no justification at all.
We showed them the UCI rule and they said it doesnít matter. And they also mentioned that they cannot change it because many athletes already changed their saddle location, so by changing back to 0 setback will be unfair.
That seems to be the situation here, too. Maybe this is just so they can use the same jig/standard as they do at road races? Do they even check bikes for this at road races? It's been over 20 years so I have no idea.
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Old 08-06-20, 12:17 AM
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From my experience, a lot of officials donít really know the rules. Even on a pretty high level...
but to protect their status they will try to enforce stuff, just to keep their credibility.

I think it would be good to point this out to the uci or federation (depends on the category of the race). With enough complaints they might rethink the education process.
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Old 08-06-20, 01:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Baby Puke View Post
That seems to be the situation here, too. Maybe this is just so they can use the same jig/standard as they do at road races? Do they even check bikes for this at road races? It's been over 20 years so I have no idea.
According to my friend, he said toad races check the bikes more often than track. I just hope they fix this saddle offset by next year.
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Old 08-06-20, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Baby Puke View Post
Was there any justification given? This official said there was a rule change, but as far as I can tell, that is untrue. This is gonna play havoc with the position of 100% of the sprinters I know.
This is Japan. You'd be hard pressed to find an official in the JCF who's ever thrown a leg over a road bike, much less a track bike. It's all about self importance and enforcing non-sensical arbitrary notions according to whatever interpretation they may have come upon -- not about ensuring safe and equitable competition.
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Old 08-06-20, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by tobukog View Post
This is Japan. You'd be hard pressed to find an official in the JCF who's ever thrown a leg over a road bike, much less a track bike. It's all about self importance and enforcing non-sensical arbitrary notions according to whatever interpretation they may have come upon -- not about ensuring safe and equitable competition.
Haha, you sound like you've been down this road before! Tobukog, are you in Japan, too? (by the way this was a JBCF official, but I think you analysis holds...)
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Old 08-13-20, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Baby Puke View Post
Haha, you sound like you've been down this road before! Tobukog, are you in Japan, too? (by the way this was a JBCF official, but I think you analysis holds...)
I've had my "issues" with cycling officials in Japan.

Many years ago I was the lead senior rider for the Kagoshima (a prefecture in Japan) Kokutai team (basically a full on National Sports Festival / Olympic Festival type event). Our team was half athletes, half officials / coaches. The officials and coaches were pretty much interested in partying with hostess girls and drinking. The day before the road race, they ordered one of the juniors, who had qualified despite being from one of the "non-favored schools", to collect the team laundry and spend the evening doing everyone's wash at the laundromat. I just lost it and declared in front of the whole team that if that's the job of the athletes, I would be going too. Needless to say it didn't go over very well.

I was pretty pissed and didn't really care, so I attacked from the gun and pulled a group clear. We got caught 5km from the finish, and I barely hung on for 15th, so my point was probably lost. Such is life.
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Old 08-14-20, 01:43 AM
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Originally Posted by tobukog View Post
I've had my "issues" with cycling officials in Japan.

Many years ago I was the lead senior rider for the Kagoshima (a prefecture in Japan) Kokutai team (basically a full on National Sports Festival / Olympic Festival type event). Our team was half athletes, half officials / coaches. The officials and coaches were pretty much interested in partying with hostess girls and drinking. The day before the road race, they ordered one of the juniors, who had qualified despite being from one of the "non-favored schools", to collect the team laundry and spend the evening doing everyone's wash at the laundromat. I just lost it and declared in front of the whole team that if that's the job of the athletes, I would be going too. Needless to say it didn't go over very well.

I was pretty pissed and didn't really care, so I attacked from the gun and pulled a group clear. We got caught 5km from the finish, and I barely hung on for 15th, so my point was probably lost. Such is life.
Haha, sounds about right! I'm familiar with Kokutai- actually I did Todofuken as a member of the Kanagawa team years ago, big road trip to Yamaguchi, lots of fun. But yeah, the "coaches" were really just taking up space. I was doing third man in team sprint and we had our man 2 hospitalized in a crash a couple of weeks before the big race. The managers replaced him with a guy who had been slotted to do the points race and was anything but a sprinter. Our starter (who was an absolute beast) dropped man 2 like a rock and we came in last of ALL prefectures. Nice! Was still an amazing thing to be a part of a national-level race here.

So are you Japanese? Are you still in Japan and racing?
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Old 08-14-20, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Baby Puke View Post
Haha, sounds about right! I'm familiar with Kokutai- actually I did Todofuken as a member of the Kanagawa team years ago, big road trip to Yamaguchi, lots of fun. But yeah, the "coaches" were really just taking up space. I was doing third man in team sprint and we had our man 2 hospitalized in a crash a couple of weeks before the big race. The managers replaced him with a guy who had been slotted to do the points race and was anything but a sprinter. Our starter (who was an absolute beast) dropped man 2 like a rock and we came in last of ALL prefectures. Nice! Was still an amazing thing to be a part of a national-level race here.

So are you Japanese? Are you still in Japan and racing?
I was born in Japan and I went back for a couple of years after college to refresh on the language. I still go back occasionally. I imagine that you race against a couple of my friends. Atsushi Kodama and Kosuke Sasaki. I'd like to race in Japan again now that I'm older -- I no longer have the "Norcal way is the right way" attitude. Back then, the spring racing in Norcal was some of the toughest in the US, 120+ fields with Mercury, Saturn, and Montgomery Bell, etc showing up for Snelling, Mclanes(Basically Merced), Visalia, etc in the beginnings of a super charged era.

As I got older, I switched over more to track and crits but I probably missed you at Hellyer by a few years -- I left for the Southeast in 2006.

Yeah, the production levels of Todofuken and Kokutai are pretty amazing -- team kit and casual wear, ceremonies, hotels, etc.... I still have a banner that I stole after the race -- they had them lining the road miles all for just one event.

Who knows -- maybe we'll meet in person someday! I'll seek you out if we're at the same race!
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Old 08-14-20, 06:45 PM
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tobukog , cool story, thanks for sharing! Yeah I didn't arrive at Hellyer until the spring of 2011, just after the big tsunami/earthquake/nuclear disaster, THAT was an interesting time...

Definitely if you are back in Japan drop me a line. I do the JCF and JBCF stuff and whatever I can find. And they have masters category stuff here now, that might be new to you. It didn't exist that I'm aware of before I left here the first time.

Cheers!
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Old 08-16-20, 04:10 PM
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Current rules read as of 6/12/20, no exemptions for flying 200 m, flying lap, sprint, team sprint, keirin, 500 metres and 1 kilometre

Portions of other articles are posted only for reference1.3.013

A bicycle shall not measure more than 185 cm in length and 50 cm in width overall. A tandem shall not measure more than 270 cm in length and 50 cm in width overall.

The peak of the saddle shall be a minimum of 5 cm to the rear of a vertical plane passing through the bottom bracket spindle.

The peak of the saddle can be move forward until the vertical line passing through the bottom bracket spindle where that is necessary for morphological reasons. By morphological reasons should be understood everything to do with the size and limb length of the rider.

Any rider who, for these reasons, considers that he needs to use a bicycle of lesser dimensions than those given shall inform the commissaires' panel to that effect at the time of the bike check.


page60image22266048E0620

GENERAL ORGANISATION OF CYCLING AS A SPORT 60

UCI CYCLING REGULATIONS

page61image22274112Only one exemption for morphological reasons may be requested; either the peak of the saddle can be moved forward or the handlebar extensions can be moved forward, in accordance with Article 1.3.023.

(text modified on 01.10.10; 01.02.12; 01.10.12; 23.10.19)
  1. 1.3.014 The plane passing through the highest points at the front and rear of the saddle can have a maximum angle of nine degrees from horizontal.
    The length of the saddle shall be 24 cm minimum and 30 cm maximum. A tolerance of 5mm is allowed.

    (text modified on 01.01.03; 01.02.12; 01.12.15)
  2. 1.3.015 The distance between the bottom bracket spindle and the ground shall be between 24 cm minimum and maximum 30 cm.
  3. 1.3.016 The distance between the vertical passing through the bottom bracket spindle and the front wheel spindle shall be between 54 cm minimum and 65 cm maximum (1).
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Old 08-16-20, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by m_sasso View Post
Current rules read as of 6/12/20, no exemptions for flying 200 m, flying lap, sprint, team sprint, keirin, 500 metres and 1 kilometre

The peak of the saddle shall be a minimum of 5 cm to the rear of a vertical plane passing through the bottom bracket spindle.

The peak of the saddle can be move forward until the vertical line passing through the bottom bracket spindle where that is necessary for morphological reasons. By morphological reasons should be understood everything to do with the size and limb length of the rider.

Any rider who, for these reasons, considers that he needs to use a bicycle of lesser dimensions than those given shall inform the commissaires' panel to that effect at the time of the bike check.
Interesting, thank you. Maybe this official wasn't full of **** after all? The dreaded morphological exemption. In this case I'm reading it as, "only very short people may set up their saddles at 0 behind BB", does that seem like a correct interpretation? If so, I wonder what the reasoning is?
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Old 08-22-20, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by m_sasso View Post
Current rules read as of 6/12/20, no exemptions for flying 200 m, flying lap, sprint, team sprint, keirin, 500 metres and 1 kilometre

Portions of other articles are posted only for reference1.3.013

A bicycle shall not measure more than 185 cm in length and 50 cm in width overall. A tandem shall not measure more than 270 cm in length and 50 cm in width overall.

The peak of the saddle shall be a minimum of 5 cm to the rear of a vertical plane passing through the bottom bracket spindle.

The peak of the saddle can be move forward until the vertical line passing through the bottom bracket spindle where that is necessary for morphological reasons. By morphological reasons should be understood everything to do with the size and limb length of the rider.

Any rider who, for these reasons, considers that he needs to use a bicycle of lesser dimensions than those given shall inform the commissaires' panel to that effect at the time of the bike check.


page60image22266048E0620

GENERAL ORGANISATION OF CYCLING AS A SPORT 60

UCI CYCLING REGULATIONS

page61image22274112Only one exemption for morphological reasons may be requested; either the peak of the saddle can be moved forward or the handlebar extensions can be moved forward, in accordance with Article 1.3.023.

(text modified on 01.10.10; 01.02.12; 01.10.12; 23.10.19)
  1. 1.3.014 The plane passing through the highest points at the front and rear of the saddle can have a maximum angle of nine degrees from horizontal.
    The length of the saddle shall be 24 cm minimum and 30 cm maximum. A tolerance of 5mm is allowed.

    (text modified on 01.01.03; 01.02.12; 01.12.15)
  2. 1.3.015 The distance between the bottom bracket spindle and the ground shall be between 24 cm minimum and maximum 30 cm.
  3. 1.3.016 The distance between the vertical passing through the bottom bracket spindle and the front wheel spindle shall be between 54 cm minimum and 65 cm maximum (1).
The actual rules doesn't mention exemption for track events but the UCI Clarification Guide of the UCI Technical Regulation do mention exemption for track events in page 38

UCI clarification Tech Reg

''For sprint events (sprint, team sprint, keirin,flying 200 m,flying lap): the tip of the saddle can be advanced to the vertical plane passing through the centre of the bottom bracket and the handlebars can be advanced to 10 cm in front of the front wheel axle without an exemption for morphological reasons.

For endurance races (points race, elimination race, scratch race and madison): the position is identical to that for road races and cyclo-cross events with the saddle withdrawn at least 5 cm behind a vertical plane passing through the centre the bottom bracket anda maximum advancement of the handlebars of 5 cm in front of the front wheel axle. An exemption for morphological reasons is possible for riders of small stature who want to bring the tip of the saddle forward up to the vertical plane passing through the centre of the bottom bracket.

For pursuit events (individual pursuit, team pursuit): the position is identical to that for roadtime trials with the saddle withdrawn at least 5 cm behind a vertical plane passing through the centre of the bottom bracket and an advanced position for handlebar extensions of a maximum of 75 cm in front of the centre of the bottom bracket. An exemption for morphological reasons is possible for riders of small stature who want to bring the tip of the saddle forward up to the vertical plane passing through the centre of the bottom bracket. Furthermore, an exemption for morphological reasons is possible for riders of large stature who want to advance the handlebar extension to up to 80 cm in front of the centre of the bottom bracket.Only one exemption for morphological reasons is allowed per rider.

For time trials (500 m or 1km): The tip of the saddle can be advanced to the vertical plane passing through the centre of the bottom bracket and the handlebar extension can be positioned up to a maximum of 75 cm in front of the centre of the bottom bracket. An exemption for morphological reasons is possible for riders of large stature who want to advance the handlebar extension to up to 80cm in front of the centre of the bottom bracket.''
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Old 09-03-20, 03:51 AM
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Relatedly, how have you all got you saddle set? I'm already at about 4cm back so it's not too painful to just go the extra 10mm to be safe. However, I'm under the impression that most sprinters go right up against the 0 line. True? False? Whatcha got?
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