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Frame for endurance events for 17-year old junior

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Frame for endurance events for 17-year old junior

Old 01-22-21, 07:56 PM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by jajacek
I already ordered Fuji size 56. We will keep chinese carbon bike as backup as it belongs to our club.

I wonder whether we need powermeter crank or not? I've read your post carleton regarding power crank accuracy. Unfortunately we can't afford SRM. Maybe we could ask if someone has used SRM or Power2Max, which seems to be pretty descent on paper. We have Power2Max together with Rotor crankset in my son's road bike. So far we haven't been doing any workouts based on power. We only use it to analyze and compare certain efforts. I've read articles regarding use of powermeter as aero testing field and virtual wind tunnel on the track, on Fitwerx website. I can't post links again but it's called "The Relentless Pursuit of Cycling Aerodynamics". I wonder if we have enough knowledge to use it to correct position to lower CdA and test different hand positions, skinsuits, wheels and eventually different aerobars. Some people around here offer aero testing. But when I asked, they will use Golden Cheetach and Notio Konnect. Not sure yet, what the cost is. I've read that Garmin is planning to release it own cheap aeropod. But if I'm correct it always requires powermeter to spit out proper results.
For endurance racing, speed, cadence, and heart rate recorded every 1 second provide more than enough data to make critical training decisions. Power is nice to have, but the other metrics tell most (if not all) of the story of what is happening.

A great thread on the subject: Training and Racing with Power Meters and other computers

Even though the thread is a few years old, the concepts discussed remain true.

Also know that the words "power meter" mean a lot of different things to a lot of different companies. All of them are trying to get your money. Your son needs a power meter that is appropriate for how he intends to use it and the data he and his coach will analyze. Also, if you don't analyze it, it's wasted money.

As far as modern offerings go, maybe bump that thread linked above and ask what's new and popular these days.
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Old 03-25-21, 06:20 AM
  #27  
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Our Fuji frame finally arrived. Now I have to fit it with a crank. I have been advised Rotor Alhu with 144 BCD. Not sure about crank lenght. He has extremely long lengs. 90 cm inseam. He prefers 170mm on the road, and that's what we planned for the track. Though not sure if it is right choice. He is able to generate very high cadence, close to 200. If necessary, we could potentially buy Power2Max NG Eco for it.

I've read one of your posts carleton, where you have written, that you observed that you're not getting any advantage going over 140 RPM. This is the kind of data we have to analyze. To choose optimum gearing. My son is not taking part in any sprinting events. But he may try Kilo. His coached tested him recently and he did 1:07 not giving it 100% and on sub optimum equiopment and 51x13 gearing, that he felt was too hard. His main events are going to be individual pursuit and elimination race. But he will take part in Omnium, Scratch and Point Race as well. Might be selected for team pursuit as well.
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Old 03-27-21, 05:46 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by jajacek
Our Fuji frame finally arrived. Now I have to fit it with a crank. I have been advised Rotor Alhu with 144 BCD. Not sure about crank lenght. He has extremely long lengs. 90 cm inseam. He prefers 170mm on the road, and that's what we planned for the track. Though not sure if it is right choice. He is able to generate very high cadence, close to 200. If necessary, we could potentially buy Power2Max NG Eco for it.

I've read one of your posts carleton, where you have written, that you observed that you're not getting any advantage going over 140 RPM. This is the kind of data we have to analyze. To choose optimum gearing. My son is not taking part in any sprinting events. But he may try Kilo. His coached tested him recently and he did 1:07 not giving it 100% and on sub optimum equiopment and 51x13 gearing, that he felt was too hard. His main events are going to be individual pursuit and elimination race. But he will take part in Omnium, Scratch and Point Race as well. Might be selected for team pursuit as well.
Take advice from the coach who has seen your son ride and knows his strengths and weaknesses...especially over a bunch of internet strangers reading 2nd hand info from his dad (no offense).

Internet advice is great for amateurs and those coaching themselves. Personalized coaching is much better. It seems like your son already has that. So, anything we say is immediately trumped by the coach's advice.

If you are gonna listen to us over the coach, then why have a coach?
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Old 03-28-21, 02:32 AM
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Originally Posted by carleton
Take advice from the coach who has seen your son ride and knows his strengths and weaknesses...especially over a bunch of internet strangers reading 2nd hand info from his dad (no offense).

Internet advice is great for amateurs and those coaching themselves. Personalized coaching is much better. It seems like your son already has that. So, anything we say is immediately trumped by the coach's advice.

If you are gonna listen to us over the coach, then why have a coach?
I agree. But his coach is almost 70-year old. He is not up to date with equipment. He has no experience with powermeters and modern equipment at all and thinks equipment makes no difference and junior can ride on anything. Even an alloy bike and alloy wheels as long as he trains right. Old school. So we need some external advice. There is very few people here who have any idea about modern equipment and they are not keen to share their knowledge. And we aspire to medals in European Championship.

We also need some good aerobar. We have no clue which one. The one we have is more than 10 years old and has no adjustments. My son complaints that in team pursuit, he can't see a wheel in front of him when riding on this aerobar.
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Old 03-28-21, 09:26 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by jajacek
I agree. But his coach is almost 70-year old. He is not up to date with equipment. He has no experience with powermeters and modern equipment at all and thinks equipment makes no difference and junior can ride on anything. Even an alloy bike and alloy wheels as long as he trains right. Old school. So we need some external advice. There is very few people here who have any idea about modern equipment and they are not keen to share their knowledge. And we aspire to medals in European Championship.

We also need some good aerobar. We have no clue which one. The one we have is more than 10 years old and has no adjustments. My son complaints that in team pursuit, he can't see a wheel in front of him when riding on this aerobar.
It is probably true that your son can win on anything, but equipment does make a difference. When you're racing among the top 1%, equipment alone can be the difference between a podium and 10th place.

As far as cranks go, with your son's long legs, he can essentially use whatever crank length he likes, which sounds like 170. This article is a fairly good summation of some studies on the topic. You could deduced from it that crank length in the commonly used spectrum of 165-175mm makes no difference to power output. Fit would be the primary concern being that his leg movement doesn't affect his aero positioning
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Old 03-29-21, 06:41 AM
  #31  
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Look at Zipp aerobars. The Vuka Bull base bar is available with a 40mm drop, which will help him get his hands low for a good starting position. And the Vuka skis offer a lot of flexibility for finding the right aero position for him.

There are more aero setups available, but until you know the ideal position for him, it's not really worthwhile to invest in any of those more high-end aerobar set ups.
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Old 03-30-21, 05:47 PM
  #32  
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And maybe invest in an adjustable stem. It will give a lot of flexibility to sort a position out before putting money towards something higher end
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Old 07-18-22, 01:56 AM
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brawlo topflightpro carleton
Here is some update a year later.
My son started in 3 km Individual Pursuit for the first time ever (though he raced 2 km two years ago) on European Championships and placed 7th. Time 3:17.490
He placed 4th in Elimination Race

His bike setup:
Fuji Track Pro frame, with some 3T basebar (not sure which one, haven't seen it yet, given by national team coach) and Deda Jet Two aerobars, that he uses for road TT.
We want to beat national 3km Junior IP record by the end of the year during nationals. The record is 3:15.056


He was riding Campagnolo Ghibli during the IP effort.

The question is, what should we do to improve his setup? I wasn't there and had no control over position, components and so.
I worked on his position on the road ITT and he won National Championships riding 49 km/h over 23 km @347W and CdA of 0.190 according to my Windsock
He had optimized chain waxed with Molten Speed Wax and very good setup on ITT, though on 2014 Shiv TT.

I know nothing about track chains and track chainrings. What is the fastest track chain?
We have Rotor Aldhu crank 170 mm in his track bike. We will swap the crank arms for 165 that worked great in his TT bike and see how it goes.
Out national team skinsuit hasn't been tested by us on the velodrome yet. We will do some skinsuit testing with Notio on the velodrome.
Our national team rides Argon track bikes in U23 and Elite category. Are you able to estimate how much faster are they compared to Fuji?
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Old 07-18-22, 11:21 AM
  #34  
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Some thoughts

Base bar looks like a 3T Aura, is a place to get a (little) improvement, it's fairly "fat" and wide.

Izumi Super Toughness KAI (important the KAI) is the fastest 1/8 chain currently. Possibly not quite as good as a dura ace 3/32 but close.

The Fuji isn't on par aerodynamically with the Argon18 (the "old" argon is faster than the new one ridden by AUS in Tokyo) haven't seen head to head data, but the Fuji is a step down from a Cervelo T4, and the Argon is a step up. Same fit/etc I'd guess a few seconds at least.

*since you are testing, I suggest testing those Deda extensions vs. "normal" round extensions. Some guys with a fair amount of hours in the wind tunnel have found those shaped extensions can sometimes be a fair bit worse than just round poles. But of course...testing.
Something else to consider is, in the picture there are spacers under the base bar (stem) - in general from data I've seen, it would be better aero wise if you slammed the base bar as low as possible, then made up that same amount of stack underneath the extensions (may be a moot point because of how the Argon's front end is made)

Pedals aren't shown... Wahoo aero pedals and either shoes made for speedplay (4 bolt) or better have a fast shoe (giro empire/etc) re-drilled for four bolt (remove the stack from the adapter spacer)

Tires are where you will probably find the most gains. Vittoria Pista ORO's for any record attempt.

Replace any grease/lube with Ceramicspeed TT grease (or other)

Front wheel - Disc indoors, one of the new "good" trispokes outdoors - best is track specific thru axle, next best is a road hub with tririg/view speed/pinhead skewers, worse is a track axle with nuts

*in the picture above the chain tension is a bit too much. Needs to be slightly slack for a pursuit.

Last edited by Morelock; 07-18-22 at 11:27 AM.
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Old 07-18-22, 12:36 PM
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Thank you Morelock
We have done some testing on the velodrome in the past but on a TT bike. We achieved the position that had 0.189 CdA according to Notio, but was very low restricting power. I just had a hunch and raised his position dramatically, by 4,5 cm. It allowed him to generate more watts in 20 km TT, keeping CdA on the same level. According to two technical advisors in World Tour I corresponded with, all their riders lowered their CdA with full contact aerobars within 0.005 - 0.008 range.
We previously tested standard round Zipp extension but we may do some more testing if we get enough velodrome time.

Slamming the basebar seems logical. I don't like the way it is currently setup with exposed steering tube and standard stem.

He rides Wahoo Speeplay Zero Aero pedals with Specialized S-Works 7 shoes.

Tubulars used for Ghibili discs were Dugast 22 rear and Vittoria Pista Speed 19 front

***** track axles with nuts. We borrowed View-Speed skewers for the ITT, so we can get them.
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Old 07-18-22, 01:14 PM
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Position wise, definitely lower isn't always better. Especially if it costs power. That said, you mentioned shorter cranks... which can allow for more saddle/bar drop without sacrificing hip angle. (on the flip side, going that direction exposes more upper leg to the wind throughout the pedal stroke...which of course having more big cylinder in the wind can sometimes be a negative...but it very much depends)
Notio is good on the track, make sure to use a dedicated speed sensor in any testing (don't rely on gps for speed on a velodrome or you'll get wonky anomalies)

It's possible the people testing the shaped extensions were primarily triathletes/masters athletes (not my data so I can't be sure) who would be seeing more yaw (lower speeds) than what a record setting pursuit, or world tour rider TT would see. It is worth being sure though if possible.

The S-works are good shoes. Wattshop offers a service to drill them for speedplays. It's marginal, but for someone going for that a record...it's not "that" marginal

Good high end tires already, oro's will be a little better if you can justify the cost though
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Old 07-18-22, 02:05 PM
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I've seen service offered by Wattshop for the shoes, but you have to send them in and back which is a real hassle now, that UK is not in EU anymore.
We use Garmin speed sensor on the track and Garmin Edge 520 under the saddle for some data.
Pista Oro are bloody expensive. We're not that determined yet
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