Mid-Level Track Frames Recs
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Mid-Level Track Frames Recs
It's time again for another "what frame should I buy" thread"! I've been training and racing at Marymoor this summer using their rental Raleigh track bikes and I'm holding out (oh so patiently) to buy a mid-level frame after the season and build it up over the winter to race Cat 4 next year. Questions:
1) Steel vs. Aluminum. I'm an old skool steel devotee and would lean towards getting another, but....what about the difference in stiffness between the two materials? I love all my steel bikes because of their absorption and flex. Are steel track frames that different in their construction? I owned an aluminum road bike ages ago and recall how stiff and responsive it was, which I would imagine is a huge asset on the track. And it seems like 3/4 of the bikes at our track are Pista Concepts or other aluminum space-bikes. There was discussion in another thread advocating steel because aluminum is far too fragile for a track bike. I'm not exactly a delicate flower when it comes to handling my bikes so that is something for me to consider. Other than durability are there other advantages? I want to believe in my steel frames, but there are so many divisive forces....gimme the dirt so I don't stray from my path!
2) Frame Recs. I'd like to spend around $800 for a frame and fork. Business Cylces has a Pinerello aluminum frame for $850. Bill Ron Bikes has an assortment of frames. The DeBernardi Zonal Track is aluminum frame and steel fork. Best of both worlds? Where are all the steel frames in this price range? Hmmmm is there a reason there are so many aluminum frames? Help me see the light!
Thanks!
1) Steel vs. Aluminum. I'm an old skool steel devotee and would lean towards getting another, but....what about the difference in stiffness between the two materials? I love all my steel bikes because of their absorption and flex. Are steel track frames that different in their construction? I owned an aluminum road bike ages ago and recall how stiff and responsive it was, which I would imagine is a huge asset on the track. And it seems like 3/4 of the bikes at our track are Pista Concepts or other aluminum space-bikes. There was discussion in another thread advocating steel because aluminum is far too fragile for a track bike. I'm not exactly a delicate flower when it comes to handling my bikes so that is something for me to consider. Other than durability are there other advantages? I want to believe in my steel frames, but there are so many divisive forces....gimme the dirt so I don't stray from my path!
2) Frame Recs. I'd like to spend around $800 for a frame and fork. Business Cylces has a Pinerello aluminum frame for $850. Bill Ron Bikes has an assortment of frames. The DeBernardi Zonal Track is aluminum frame and steel fork. Best of both worlds? Where are all the steel frames in this price range? Hmmmm is there a reason there are so many aluminum frames? Help me see the light!
Thanks!
#2
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I can't comment on what frame to get, but this talk of Aluminum being fragile is just not true.
What matters more is the weight of the frame/tubing diameter/quality of construction rather than whether it is steel or Aluminum. They can both be good if built heavy enough.
Steel has a fatigue limit true , but track bikes seem to be used hard (you are not spinning low gears in the saddle like you do with a road bike) . Most of the time you may be exceeding this fatigue limit if you are pounding a big gear out of the saddle depending on how heavy you are and how heavy the steel frame is.
There is a fatigue test call the Efbe test which applies a very high "out of the saddle" load to a road frame for 100,000 cycles. Steel does not do well in these tests for whatever reason. Aluminum does great though. Sure aluminum doesn't have a fatigue limit, but it seems to have a better strength to weight ratio.
What matters more is the weight of the frame/tubing diameter/quality of construction rather than whether it is steel or Aluminum. They can both be good if built heavy enough.
Steel has a fatigue limit true , but track bikes seem to be used hard (you are not spinning low gears in the saddle like you do with a road bike) . Most of the time you may be exceeding this fatigue limit if you are pounding a big gear out of the saddle depending on how heavy you are and how heavy the steel frame is.
There is a fatigue test call the Efbe test which applies a very high "out of the saddle" load to a road frame for 100,000 cycles. Steel does not do well in these tests for whatever reason. Aluminum does great though. Sure aluminum doesn't have a fatigue limit, but it seems to have a better strength to weight ratio.
#4
Lapped 3x
Originally Posted by 53-11_alltheway
I can't comment on what frame to get, but this talk of Aluminum being fragile is just not true.
What matters more is the weight of the frame/tubing diameter/quality of construction rather than whether it is steel or Aluminum. They can both be good if built heavy enough.
Steel has a fatigue limit true , but track bikes seem to be used hard (you are not spinning low gears in the saddle like you do with a road bike) . Most of the time you may be exceeding this fatigue limit if you are pounding a big gear out of the saddle depending on how heavy you are and how heavy the steel frame is.
There is a fatigue test call the Efbe test which applies a very high "out of the saddle" load to a road frame for 100,000 cycles. Steel does not do well in these tests for whatever reason. Aluminum does great though. Sure aluminum doesn't have a fatigue limit, but it seems to have a better strength to weight ratio.
What matters more is the weight of the frame/tubing diameter/quality of construction rather than whether it is steel or Aluminum. They can both be good if built heavy enough.
Steel has a fatigue limit true , but track bikes seem to be used hard (you are not spinning low gears in the saddle like you do with a road bike) . Most of the time you may be exceeding this fatigue limit if you are pounding a big gear out of the saddle depending on how heavy you are and how heavy the steel frame is.
There is a fatigue test call the Efbe test which applies a very high "out of the saddle" load to a road frame for 100,000 cycles. Steel does not do well in these tests for whatever reason. Aluminum does great though. Sure aluminum doesn't have a fatigue limit, but it seems to have a better strength to weight ratio.
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I agree with what you say about steel being stiffer than aluminum as a metal ---> https://strongframes.com/tech_geeks_l..._ID=12©ID=
Aluminum is flexible compared to steel and fatigues whenever it bends therefore the design of the frame is engineered to overcome this flaw in the metal's characteristics.
The net result is a stiff frame made out if a flexible metal. Since it's less dense than steel the tubes can also be oversize as well to stiffen the structure up.
That link above is good reading.
Aluminum is flexible compared to steel and fatigues whenever it bends therefore the design of the frame is engineered to overcome this flaw in the metal's characteristics.
The net result is a stiff frame made out if a flexible metal. Since it's less dense than steel the tubes can also be oversize as well to stiffen the structure up.
That link above is good reading.
Last edited by 53-11_alltheway; 07-17-05 at 01:43 AM.
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Harlot,
Is there anything you particularly like or dislike about the Raleigh? That may give you a bit of insight into what you'll be looking for in your next frame. If there's someone that rides close to your style, check out what they're on or ask them the same questions.
When you're looking for the next step, I think you should start looking to personal preferences. You want a machine that compliments your strengths so you don't have to compensate for them.
Is there anything you particularly like or dislike about the Raleigh? That may give you a bit of insight into what you'll be looking for in your next frame. If there's someone that rides close to your style, check out what they're on or ask them the same questions.
When you're looking for the next step, I think you should start looking to personal preferences. You want a machine that compliments your strengths so you don't have to compensate for them.
#7
Lapped 3x
Originally Posted by 53-11_alltheway
I agree with what you say about steel being stiffer than aluminum as a metal ---> https://strongframes.com/tech_geeks_l..._ID=12©ID=
Aluminum is flexible compared to steel and fatigues whenever it bends therefore the design of the frame is engineered to overcome this flaw in the metal's characteristics.
The net result is a stiff frame made out if a flexible metal. Since it's less dense than steel the tubes can also be oversize as well to stiffen the structure up.
That link above is good reading.
Aluminum is flexible compared to steel and fatigues whenever it bends therefore the design of the frame is engineered to overcome this flaw in the metal's characteristics.
The net result is a stiff frame made out if a flexible metal. Since it's less dense than steel the tubes can also be oversize as well to stiffen the structure up.
That link above is good reading.
#8
downtube shifter
For off the rack track frames, I would look at size and geometry first, frame materials second.
I do not know what size you ride, but if you look at the HT angle on the Pinarello, it doesn't look track-ish until you get to the 52cm (c-c) size. Also note that the fork used does not change fork offset (rake) from the smallest size to the largest. This means that the front end handling of the bike changes from an extremely slow (trail=6.9?cm) to quick (trail=5.6cm). So the smaller sizes would be ok for mass start racing, but the larger frames would be good for sprinting. In my estimation, the 54cm frame is the best compromise.
One thing to note about aluminum track frames; do not buy them if they do not have stainless steel replaceable track ends. Aluminum track ends will get worn out real quick. (I can only guess that to get around this you should use the mks tug nuts or something similar to avoid wear on the aluminum, but I do not know this from experience.)
Re: aluminum vs steel. I won't get into a geeky argument about which is better. Alot of people ride aluminum frames on the track because of availabilty. And in many cases these frames are used as entry level frames. Eventually, the frames are replaced by custom steel frames or carbon fiber frames once that racer feels ready. The fuji track pros and bianchi pista concepts are nice, but each have issues I wouldn't settle for. The fork offset on the Fuji and the integrated headset on the Pista. But, if I had a choice of the two, I would go for Bianchi.
Personally, at this price point, I would spend a little more and go custom. Which usually means steel.
I do not know what size you ride, but if you look at the HT angle on the Pinarello, it doesn't look track-ish until you get to the 52cm (c-c) size. Also note that the fork used does not change fork offset (rake) from the smallest size to the largest. This means that the front end handling of the bike changes from an extremely slow (trail=6.9?cm) to quick (trail=5.6cm). So the smaller sizes would be ok for mass start racing, but the larger frames would be good for sprinting. In my estimation, the 54cm frame is the best compromise.
One thing to note about aluminum track frames; do not buy them if they do not have stainless steel replaceable track ends. Aluminum track ends will get worn out real quick. (I can only guess that to get around this you should use the mks tug nuts or something similar to avoid wear on the aluminum, but I do not know this from experience.)
Re: aluminum vs steel. I won't get into a geeky argument about which is better. Alot of people ride aluminum frames on the track because of availabilty. And in many cases these frames are used as entry level frames. Eventually, the frames are replaced by custom steel frames or carbon fiber frames once that racer feels ready. The fuji track pros and bianchi pista concepts are nice, but each have issues I wouldn't settle for. The fork offset on the Fuji and the integrated headset on the Pista. But, if I had a choice of the two, I would go for Bianchi.
Personally, at this price point, I would spend a little more and go custom. Which usually means steel.
#9
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Originally Posted by yonderboy
Is there anything you particularly like or dislike about the Raleigh?
Originally Posted by yonderboy
You want a machine that compliments your strengths so you don't have to compensate for them.
Jose R - More good advice, thanks. I ride a 54-56 depending on the frame and I know track frames run differently so I'll have to buckle down and figure out my optimum dimensions. I don't want to cave and get a full stock bike because I do like to be in control of some elements, hence my interest in searching out a frame. But given my fresh entry into the track world, I'm not ready to commit to a custom. I'm thinking of something to get me through my first full year or two, and then I'll reassess my worthiness of a custom. I'll also haunt Ebay at the end of the season looking for bikes that are victims of impulse buys. The good thing is that I'm not rushing into this so I will take the time to ride some other people's bikes and make a somewhat intelligent decision.
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harlot, have a look at this Cramerotti TVT Ultra Track Frame. it's AL, lists at right around 1g, and the sellers BIN is 425 (with a king headset, too).
#11
downtube shifter
Originally Posted by harlot
I ride a 54-56 depending on the frame and I know track frames run differently so I'll have to buckle down and figure out my optimum dimensions. I don't want to cave and get a full stock bike because I do like to be in control of some elements, hence my interest in searching out a frame.
BTW, the Bianchi Pista concepts are available as framesets with fork. Full stock it comes in at $1,400 MSRP. So, I would assume it would be ~$800 for the frameset. But, like I stated before, the integrated headset may be an issue to review.
And, here is some interesting reading on the design of track frames by Spectrum Cycles.
Last edited by Jose R; 07-18-05 at 09:00 AM.
#12
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Originally Posted by Jose R
BTW, the Bianchi Pista concepts are available as framesets with fork. Full stock it comes in at $1,400 MSRP. So, I would assume it would be ~$800 for the frameset. But, like I stated before, the integrated headset may be an issue to review.
Bianchi doesn't sell complete Pista concepts. It's available only as a frame set.
Custom steel frame you are talking about $1000 and there is no fork included.
#13
downtube shifter
Originally Posted by 53-11_alltheway
Actually retail price for a Pista Concept frame and fork is $600 https://www.bianchiusa.com/pista_concept.html . You can often get them on sale for $500ish and that price is for the fork also.
Bianchi doesn't sell complete Pista concepts. It's available only as a frame set.
Custom steel frame you are talking about $1000 and there is no fork included.
Bianchi doesn't sell complete Pista concepts. It's available only as a frame set.
Custom steel frame you are talking about $1000 and there is no fork included.
See here for the 2005 Pista Concept. Which is sold as complete bike, but also as a frameset.
The concept you link to is the 2004.
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Originally Posted by 53-11_alltheway
Bianchi doesn't sell complete Pista concepts. It's available only as a frame set.
Pista Concept
The radical frame was so popular in 2004 that we decided to build a complete bike.
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Wow. I missed that. Every time I googled Biachi Pista I got the 2004 without noticing it was 2004.
Well **** that celeste one looks better anyway. Hopefully the price hasn't changed.
Hey, can you guys help me clear up a track geometry question in the SS/FG forum. (look under Fuji track thread)
Well **** that celeste one looks better anyway. Hopefully the price hasn't changed.
Hey, can you guys help me clear up a track geometry question in the SS/FG forum. (look under Fuji track thread)
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Harlot -
I'm about to get another track frame built up. This will probably be the all-track ride, started because I managed to get Campy Record Pista parts for a steal. I'm going british this time, sort of an homage to my earlier years and a Bob Jackson is being inquired about. Not fully custom, this one is an "off the peg" Vigorelli Pista 631 Reynolds frame which comes in the colour and lug pinstriping of your choice. Full custom comes at about $1000 shipped and a Mercian costs about the same. I hear the wait times are shorter than their American brethren. The off the peg though is a 10 week turnaround. Better than a year but maybe not so good if you want it for the here and now track season (which is almost done soon).
Edit: the off the peg costs about US$640 shipped.
I'm about to get another track frame built up. This will probably be the all-track ride, started because I managed to get Campy Record Pista parts for a steal. I'm going british this time, sort of an homage to my earlier years and a Bob Jackson is being inquired about. Not fully custom, this one is an "off the peg" Vigorelli Pista 631 Reynolds frame which comes in the colour and lug pinstriping of your choice. Full custom comes at about $1000 shipped and a Mercian costs about the same. I hear the wait times are shorter than their American brethren. The off the peg though is a 10 week turnaround. Better than a year but maybe not so good if you want it for the here and now track season (which is almost done soon).
Edit: the off the peg costs about US$640 shipped.
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Originally Posted by Jose R
First, how tall are you? And what are the measurements of your current ride: (1) seat tube, center of BB to center of TT, (2) Saddle height, center of BB to top of saddle, (3) TT length (c-c), (4) Stem length, and (5) reach length, front of the saddle to center of handlebars (or center of saddle to center of handlebars).
And, here is some interesting reading on the design of track frames by Spectrum Cycles.
And, here is some interesting reading on the design of track frames by Spectrum Cycles.
C&C - thanks for the Ebay link to that frame. I'll see what kind of numbers I come up with and if that frame could work out.
#19
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Originally Posted by Jose R
And, here is some interesting reading on the design of track frames by Spectrum Cycles.
Makes sense if headtube angle is steeper you don't want too long of a stem.
#20
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Hey Harlot,
Check your personal messages re/ my friends bike.
Had a great time last night!
Check your personal messages re/ my friends bike.
Had a great time last night!
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Harlot. I don't know if you're looking at new frames exclusively, but I would say you could probably get a great deal by looking into an older steel frame. I recently picked up a gorgeous Razesa frame with a Chris King headset and a dura-ace bottom bracket for $500. Its certainly not top of the line, but for the money it was a great find.
Lots of older frames are out there and can be had for similar prices. Razesa's seem a little rare so you may not be able to find one of those (One sold on e-bay for $785ish a couple weeks ago.)
Just a thought.
Lots of older frames are out there and can be had for similar prices. Razesa's seem a little rare so you may not be able to find one of those (One sold on e-bay for $785ish a couple weeks ago.)
Just a thought.
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DiT - I am starting to lean towards an older steel frame. Kind of had an epiphany the other night at the races. My head was swirling looking at all the soulless aluminum bikes. I'm going to stick with steel. And with the money I could save finding a nice used one.....heck I could get another bike!
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Originally Posted by harlot
Kind of had an epiphany the other night at the races. My head was swirling looking at all the soulless aluminum bikes. I'm going to stick with steel.
#25
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I envisioned a bunch of frat boys smashing beer cans on their foreheads. I don't want to ride a beer can. My bike's gonna last forever.