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New model RFC

Old 12-06-05, 12:23 AM
  #26  
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O/S tubing (please make this high performance)
120mm rear triangle (obviously)
Lugged- if you can get oversized ones. Otherwise tigged would be fine.
1 1/8 steerer tube
track seat tube angle/headtube angles with short chainstays.
highish BB (5.0-5.5 cm drop)
Fork crown- don't care that much either way
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Old 12-06-05, 12:36 AM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by Ceya
I 'll add no oversize tubing.


stiffen the bb area for sprint model.
LOL, you want no oversize tubing, but a stiff BB at the same time?

Can this not have a 1" threaded fork? I like oversize 31.8 clamp bars and I don't know of a quill stem that will take this.

Last edited by 53-11_alltheway; 12-06-05 at 03:15 AM.
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Old 12-06-05, 10:31 AM
  #28  
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Threadless option.

If lugged, lugged all the way.

If not lugged, keep the price down.

Drilled in front.

No OS tubing.

Traditional geometry and appearance, except for threadless option.

Really, though, just make it look like a threadless Ganwell Pro and sell it for what regular people can afford.
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Old 12-06-05, 02:38 PM
  #29  
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see below
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Old 12-06-05, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Kogswell
O/S tubing (please make this high performance)

O/S tubing is pretty standard.

120mm rear triangle (obviously)

Yep.

Lugged- if you can get oversized ones. Otherwise tigged would be fine.

O/S lugs are easy. But I think I'll keep the price low by using TIG.

1 1/8 steerer tube

You're the first to ask for 9/8" steering. We've improved 9/8" threadless steel by using a light (1.2mm) steerer. Our 9/8" threadless fork now weighs less than a 1" threaded fork and it's lighter and stiffer in the head. And since you can run a 9/8" quill stem, I'm like it better than 1" threaded now.

highish BB (5.0-5.5 cm drop)

So we have 28mm and 52mm. Anyone else?

Fork crown- don't care that much either way.

LC19 w/ round blades for the 'track' fork. And our standard crown for the other forks.
[/QUOTE]
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Old 12-06-05, 02:41 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by Ken Cox
Threadless option.

If lugged, lugged all the way.

If not lugged, keep the price down.

Drilled in front.

No OS tubing.

Traditional geometry and appearance, except for threadless option.

Really, though, just make it look like a threadless Ganwell Pro and sell it for what regular people can afford.
Yeah, I think I will keep the price low. I think more people will be better served by having access to a more trackish bike at a lower cost than by a less trackish bike at a higher cost.

Threadless Ganwell Pro - check.
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Old 12-06-05, 10:54 PM
  #32  
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noooo. threaded... sexier..
also
dont make all forks drilled. Some people need brakes but some dont.
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Old 12-06-05, 10:57 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by Jamtastic
noooo. threaded... sexier..
also
dont make all forks drilled. Some people need brakes but some dont.
1" threaded and 26.0 bars are for all the posuers who also like lacing tangential hubs radially and hang out in the FG/SS forum.

I think Kogswell should stay true to the mission in making this a cheap and fast track weapon.
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Old 12-07-05, 01:33 AM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by 53-11_alltheway
1" threaded and 26.0 bars are for all the posuers who also like lacing tangential hubs radially and hang out in the FG/SS forum.

I think Kogswell should stay true to the mission in making this a cheap and fast track weapon.
that first part pegged me. do i have a target on me. but hey .... i like 25.4 bars. *sticks tongue out*
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Old 12-08-05, 08:54 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by Kogswell
highish BB (5.0-5.5 cm drop)

So we have 28mm and 52mm. Anyone else?
Just to be clear.

Bottom brackets are measured two ways; by height (floor to center of BB) and drop (horizontal line thru axles to center of BB).

So, BB height = ~ 28cm and BB drop = 5-5.5mm

Americans usually measure BB drop; Italians BB height. I know its confusing...

So, 28mm makes no sense for a drop or height measurement. 52mm is ok, but the standards are 50mm or 55mm for a drop.

To be on the safe side, use 50mm drop.

Threadless is the new standard at the track. Trackies are running OS or road handlebars these days. Its easy enough to switch out stems and handlebars.

If you are going to tig weld to keep costs down, might as well go OS, since you will be using 9/8" HT.

Also, the issue of good track ends are way important. Paragon makes a nice track end with relieved plates.

Last edited by Jose R; 12-08-05 at 09:02 PM.
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Old 12-08-05, 09:35 PM
  #36  
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Bottom brackets are measured two ways; by height (floor to center of BB) and drop (horizontal line thru axles to center of BB). So, BB height = ~ 28cm and BB drop = 5-5.5mm Americans usually measure BB drop; Italians BB height. So, 28mm makes no sense for a drop or height measurement. 52mm is ok, but the standards are 50mm or 55mm for a drop. To be on the safe side, use 50mm drop.

My bad. I always think in terms of drop and when I saw 28, I thought that someone was play'n with me

Threadless is the new standard at the track. Trackies are running OS or road handlebars these days. Its easy enough to switch out stems and handlebars.

Yeah, we make a lot of forks and people are split down the middle now, half 1"/tread, the other half 9/8" threadless. So we make both. The other thing we're testing is using thinner walls in the steerer on the 9/8" threadless. Turns out 1.6mm walls made sense when you threaded the steerer but not when you don't. We talked to BMX builders who have been using thin-wall 9/8" steel steerers forever and they have zero problems. The kool part is that the thinner-walled steerers are lighter than the 1"/threaded.

If you are going to tig weld to keep costs down, might as well go OS, since you will be using 9/8" HT.

OS is pretty standard these days and we don't get many serious requests for 1" T/T or 28.6mm D/T.

Also, the issue of good track ends are way important.

We've made big leaps in D.O. design. We now have good laser/CNC plate dropouts that are very nice.

Thanks a ton for your careful collaboration. -Matthew
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Old 12-09-05, 12:32 AM
  #37  
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Jose R, Road bars nothing new on the track but people been having problem raising their stem and can't do it due to the threadless stems.

S/F,
CEYA!
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Old 12-09-05, 01:58 AM
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Originally Posted by 53-11_alltheway
LOL, you want no oversize tubing, but a stiff BB at the same time?

Can this not have a 1" threaded fork? I like oversize 31.8 clamp bars and I don't know of a quill stem that will take this.

not Oversized and freaking stiff.

S/F,
CEYA!
Attached Images
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bb area.jpg (18.7 KB, 95 views)
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Old 12-09-05, 06:19 AM
  #39  
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You can use a quill stem w/ a threadless fork.

And help me understand why OS tubes and stiffness aren't related.

Last edited by Kogswell; 12-09-05 at 06:25 AM.
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Old 12-09-05, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Kogswell
You can use a quill stem w/ a threadless fork.

And help me understand why OS tubes and stiffness aren't related.

yeah I know but most don't buy or use the adapter.


I didn't associate oversized bb and stiffness together. that was 53-11_alltheway who stated the two together.

I just said don't use os tubing and have a stiff bb area. It not like you can't get a stiff bb without os tubing.


S/F,
CEYA!
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Old 12-09-05, 02:39 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by Ceya
yeah I know but most don't buy or use the adapter.

I just said don't use os tubing and have a stiff bb area. It not like you can't get a stiff bb without os tubing.
What adapter?

And what is it about OS tubing that you don't like?

How would you like the BB area to be made more stiff?
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Old 12-09-05, 06:14 PM
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Quill adapter that they use for threadless stem.

I just personally never like them , i have ridden Klein mountain bike but I am old fashion.

S/F,
CEYA!
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Old 12-09-05, 06:37 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by Ceya
Quill adapter that they use for threadless stem.

I just personally never like them , i have ridden Klein mountain bike but I am old fashion.

S/F,
CEYA!
you guys are talking about 2 different things

CEYA is talking about using an adaptor with a threaded fork/headset in order to use a threadless stem.
but
Kogswell is talking about using something like a threadless YST GeForce headset with a threadless steerer, which allows you to use a quill stem
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Old 12-09-05, 10:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Kogswell

How would you like the BB area to be made more stiff?
https://www.bikeforums.net/attachment...tachmentid=858

sorry bad pic.

the above was done by my friend Johnny(RIP) of Alma Pura Cycles in NY.

He called them Bat Wings. It reinforce the BB by connecting the tubes at all points where they meet.

The above the seat tube and down tube are not connected by reinforcements.

Bob Jackson has a similar format also.

S/F,
CEYA!

Baxter thanks!
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Old 12-09-05, 11:17 PM
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Long Shen Arrowpoint lugs (so hot)

NIce tubes with short butts, tuned for frame size hopefully.

Short head tube, therefore longer TT than CTT, which allows better standover with a highish BB. Extended head tube for added stiffness / higher bar position?

Flat crown drilled for a brake. Curved fork blades for comfort, and curved all the way to the dropouts for Maximum style. Well, straight blades for max style, but it is RFC, after all.

Room for fenders as well as short chainstays. Curved or crimped chainstays and seatstays are the only solution I can thing of.


Unpainted ends and fork dropouts.
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Old 12-09-05, 11:57 PM
  #46  
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Now you're talkin.

Bat wings are pretty standard on lots of Long Shen BB shells:



But since this is gonna be TIG, I'll have to do it some other way. A bit of CNC'd plate, maybe. Maybe a K shape, for fun.

Or just a BIG, FAT bridge.
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Old 12-10-05, 12:09 AM
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Long Shen Arrowpoint lugs (so hot)

Yeah, lugs are nice. But this is gonna be TIG'd to lower cost so...

NIce tubes with short butts, tuned for frame size hopefully.

We can do that. I'm thinking of some oddly butted tubes; it costs us zero extra to butt the tubes any way we choose. Like how about a section of the top tube butted THICK where the bars hit: a built-in tube protector.

Short head tube, therefore longer TT than CTT, which allows better standover with a highish BB. Extended head tube for added stiffness / higher bar position?

Great minds think alike, and so do our's!

Flat crown drilled for a brake. Curved fork blades for comfort, and curved all the way to the dropouts for Maximum style. Well, straight blades for max style, but it is RFC, after all.

Room for fenders as well as short chainstays. Curved or crimped chainstays and seatstays are the only solution I can thing of.

I'm thinking that if you want to run fenders, then use 590 (650A) rims. I'll make some fenders to fit this frame. Imagine a super-squirrelly track bike w/ fenders and 590s for rain duty! I'll package fenders and a high offset for together, to eliminate TCO when the fenders are on.

Unpainted ends and fork dropouts.

Nah. Orange power everywhere.

Last edited by Kogswell; 12-10-05 at 12:15 AM.
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Old 12-10-05, 12:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Kogswell
Now you're talkin.

Bat wings are pretty standard on lots of Long Shen BB shells:



But since this is gonna be TIG, I'll have to do it some other way. A bit of CNC'd plate, maybe. Maybe a K shape, for fun.

Or just a BIG, FAT bridge.
This is from world class cycles, showing Bob Jackson . look at the BB on the track frame . You see little wings connecting to other tubes. Alma Pura was alot bigger .
Those are batwings.

S/F,
CEYA!


https://www.worldclasscycles.com/jack...head_track.htm
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Old 12-10-05, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Ceya
This is from world class cycles, showing Bob Jackson . look at the BB on the track frame . You see little wings connecting to other tubes. Alma Pura was alot bigger .
Those are batwings.

S/F,
CEYA!


https://www.worldclasscycles.com/jack...head_track.htm
Good morning gentlemen. I think you guys are talking about a couple different types of shells. By "batwings," Ceya does not mean merely a cast reinforcemnt between chainstays, but rather integral gussets between the other tubes joined at the bb. The spearpoint shell on the bob jackson is a long shen model shown on the ceeway site (first bb shell page, top row, fourth from the left):
https://www.ceeway.com/Bottom%20Bracket%20Shells.htm

The shell on the Alma Pura bike is a Silva model 528 shell and is also on the ceeway site (second bb shell page, half way down the page on the left side):
https://www.ceeway.com/Bottom%20Bracket%202.htm

I don't know how effective these shells are at stiffening the bb; because I don't think the average cast bb shell is very flexible. But both of these are good looking!
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Old 12-10-05, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Rodador
Good morning gentlemen. I think you guys are talking about a couple different types of shells. By "batwings," Ceya does not mean merely a cast reinforcemnt between chainstays, but rather integral gussets between the other tubes joined at the bb. The spearpoint shell on the bob jackson is a long shen model shown on the ceeway site (first bb shell page, top row, fourth from the left):
https://www.ceeway.com/Bottom%20Bracket%20Shells.htm

I don't know how effective these shells are at stiffening the bb; because I don't think the average cast bb shell is very flexible. But both of these are good looking!
Right.

The Bob Jackson is made using the Long Shen 300R set:



And I agree, pretty but of questionable frame stiffening use.

Just to be clear, this frame will NOT BE LUGGED.
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