fordfasterr

I was wondering if anyone here could give me some tips on training for the track?

For starters, what would you suggest as training for a 10 lap race ?

I've heard people say things at the track like " he needs to train his heart, not his body !, he's breathing hard and he's not even going fast " ...

how does one " train their heart " ?

ZappCatt

There are 2 major systems that come into play when racing. Your cardio(endurance) and muscle(sprints).
Most riders do a lot of early season mileage to build up their cardio system(get in shape)/heart....once they do that, then they start focusing on muscle/event specific workouts(intervals/hills/starts)

Spinning is typically associated with cardio, and mashing is typically associated with muscle.


If you are huffing and puffing while spinning on the warmup, you need to work on your heart/cardio...if you can spin all day, but your legs die after 100 meters, then you need to work on your muscles.

Right now, I am totally out of shape..I really need to do some cardio/endurance riding...the warmup kills me...I start sucking wind and sometimes get dropped...but when we do 200 leadouts at the beginners sessions, I typically am one of the fastest(due to having muscle strength)

gtboy

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with the simple dichotomy of "cardio/muscle."

There's a fair bit of sports science involved as to which energy system you're going to utilize. All energy comes from ATP. How your body gets that ATP is a matter of what intensity/duration of excercise you are doing. There are three main ways which the body gets energy (known as "energy pathways"):

After about 2-3 seconds of intense work, your muscles break the ATP already floating around (known as "free ATP") into ADP after that you get...

Creatine Phosphate (CP): Sometimes know as the "phosphoric" energy system. Here, CP is used to recycle ATP. This system does NOT require oxygen (thus it is known as anaerobic), and starts to slow down after about 12-15 seconds. This is the primary energy system used in sprints, and short TTs. This energy system is not efficient, but it provides the most amount of energy in the shortest amount of time.

Anaerobic Metabolism: This is where your body starts to eat up glycogen stored in your muscles. It's more effecient (i.e., your body can do it longer without needing oxygen). This system takes over at about 30 seconds and lasts somewhere into 3 minutes. It's a little more efficient than CP, but it also provides a little less power. This is where events like Kilo, longer TT's, and pursuit predominantly reside.

Aerobic Metabolism: This is what roadies and points racers train for. ATP is recycled from glycogen in the liver, muscles and the blood. Across VERY (90+ minutes) long durations, proteins and fats are utilized as well. The difference between this and anaerobic metabolism is that with aerobic metabolism, oxygen is required, which is why you start huffing and puffing.

The point of all of this is that if you want to be fast over short distances, or fast over long distances, you need to train for that specific distance. There are no clear boundaries with these systems, so it's always a mix, but if you know you're only going to exert yourself for 15 seconds, there is no point in going to the gym and doing 10 sets of 15 squats at a low weight. You'll just be working the entirely wrong energy system.

So if your event is 10 laps, and you average 11 or 12 seconds across each lap, that's about 2 minutes. You'll probably want to work on your initial anaerobic and extended anaerobic, which means very high intensity, short duration with longer rests, followed by some lower intesity, longer duration, with short rests. Example work/rest intervals would be 1:2 to 1:4. Lower intensity at 2:1 or 1:1 ratios.

If you want to train your attacks, I would do 1:2 spinups. You have to get used to attacking at 150-160rpm from a "rest" of 110-120rpm. You should be approaching maximal HR during the sprints. This is your 1:2 work/rest. Attacking at a lower rpm, like 130-140, you should work longer (about twice as long, up to about 25 second attack), but work rest is 2:1. If any of this doesn't make sense, PM me.

Anyway, this is all my opinion, but it's based pretty heavily in legit sports science (Super Training, for the most part, but also basic biology).

Hope this helps!

ZappCatt

Not dissagreeing with you...but...

Fordfaster is a novice to the track(and competitive cycling racing?), so I think an advanced/specialilzed traing regimen like you are supplying would be overkill for him at this point in time. I think a season of endurance training would be better for him, with 150-160 rpm spinning coming much later in the year..if not next year.

Also, he rides at Brian Piccolo, a 330 meter track...kinda doubt his lap times are going to be 11 secs....more likely 25+.

gtboy

Point taken. Also, I didn't realize his/her track was a 330m. Your advice is probably best.

I just guess what with so much myth and misinformation floating around about excercise, and training methods at gyms, tracks, and message boards, I tend to be a little knee-jerk about the science aspect of it. Didn't mean to sound harsh!

fordfasterr

awesome info.

Thanks alot =)

...........


I still want to set some training methods in so that I can improve as quickly as possible... I don't want to waste a year doing stuff that is good, but not doing stuff that could be better.

so .. I still need some kind of training that makes sense and is not overkill @ the same time.

ZappCatt

No prob. If you want to see some REALLY intense people when it comes to training, go the FixedGearFever. It is a GREAT track specific site..I hope we can get some more people here in the BF track forum to bring up the level..but FGF rocks.

There are current International coaches and athletes that participate there.


I was just saying that FF probably would be better off doing things which will help him long term, as opposed to things that are often done by seasoned veterans to "optimize/peak" for a specific race. I definately believe in science based training, and have asked for training suggestions over at FGF.

I have the Armstrong training book, and have read Friel...Friel says that you should not worry about specific high level training until you have ridden for a couple of years...I am not sure if he means ridden and competed with a basic idea of what you are doing, or just tooling on a bike would count.

I come from a track and field background(and plan to be a sprinter) so I am actually going to race this season on natural ability, and try to figure out where I fit in the grand scheme of things...Once I learn more of the technique/strategy of Track racing, then I hope to focus on a solid training program nect year.

I just know myself, and if I were to go whole hog on a specific training regimen and lost due to lack of technique/bike handling, I would be crushed...

Your mileage may vary.

gtboy

Well see, that all depends on your general fitness level. If you have good overall strength (say, 1.5 times your body weight squat for reps, and a few pullups?), you can really jump into sport-specific training in a few months. Really, you only need 16-20 or so weeks (2 10-week periodized cycles, or two more intense 8 week cycles) for general strength, then you can jump into sports-specific, but that's only if you're in decent shape when you start.

My 10-week general strength cycle goes up 5 lbs a week on the main lifts (dead, squat, bench), and it's easy to meet goals. I switch between sports-specific, and general strength. But general only goes so far: s the Australian strength conditioning coach pointed out, two-legged squats are great if you push with both legs at the same time on a bike, but sadly you don't. To get strong unilaterally, you have to train unilaterally. Volume is a speed killer, and so is not training at speed; you need to get used to spinning 160 in your gearing for whatever your goal time is.

Endurance, on the other hand, is a whole 'nother set of cards. The theory is completely different, and is very similar to road training for crits. I think the only way it differs is tactics, since the physiological demands appear very similar. Any comment on that from other racers? I don't train for endurance events so my research is somewhat limited there.

bitingduck

And don't forget to train your brain.

A 10 lap scratch race or tempo is as much about strategy and tactics as it is about fitness. You have to have the fitness and speed to be in the race, but you can find yourself getting beat by people with less speed and strength if they have better race sense.

WithNail

I have a question... I'm getting shoulder surgery and I can't get on a stationary bike for two weeks and I can't get on a regular bike for over six weeks. I'm kind of worried about being off of the bike for that long. I don't have rollers and I don't have a trainer... I was wondering what you guys suggest I do in my off time. I want to stay fit for the summer and I don't want to fall back to 14's like I did the last time I was off my bike for over a month.

CafeRacer

best advise........get a coach and dont look back. The simple way of doing it would be to work on key parts of track in general. Leg Speed, power to push a hard gear while you accelerate, smooth spinning and a knowedge you can only get from racers who have raced longer than youve been alive

nightmarez

Withnail are you able to run? If so maybe try that

ultraman6970

HI again...

warm up like for 15 mins... slow cadence.. enough to do not fall... each 3 mins or so accelerate... and so on... then the last lap try to go at full speed... then go to the center of the track and take a rest like for 10 mins. because your heart will be on the clouds.

If somebody is training too... ask him nicely if u can go behind them while they are traning... in that way u'll catch the pace of faster people... always at the end ok? dont go to the front because u arent so strong yet. U stilll need to learn. So ride with them ok? Maybe u r thinking..."im not going to get any training like that!!!" yes u will... when u arent strong niether fast go behind somebody that rides faster is pure pain!!!!! because u cant hold your "buggers" trying to be behind that wheel... thats all u have to do my apprentice... learn racing pace, and u learn that with other guys that rides faster than u do, eventually ull catch up.

If u get tired, try to stay there as much as u can, suddenly a second air will come... if cant stand like that stop or go at your pacing a few turns and then stop to take your breath!...

Practice manouvers, going up and down while u r there too... then go home, eat as much as u can and go to bed. Dont do this every single day ok? skip a day or so ok? M-W-F it would be perfect because your body needs recovery. And awesomely, track will eat it all.. so u need some rest.

Dont go crazy ok? do some miles in your road bike too... I bet u feel stronger by now because of the track... but u need to put some miles on you aswell...

Good luck... wonder if i can go to miami next month... if i do so I would like to meet you and ride together i guess... have ton convince wifey heheh

UM

ultraman6970

I forgot this... if u cant go to the road... and if u have access to a gym... go and run a few miles in the trhreadmill... that it will help a lot with your aerobic perfrmance...

UM

fordfasterr

Thanks for all the info ultraman !

So far, I only go to the track once or twice a week.

Then I ride my bike to work and back every single day. On 3 days its 10.5 miles round trip, and on 2 days its 14.5 miles round trip.

I will try to follow some of your advice and see how it goes ! Thanks !

AnthonyG

OK I'm a blow in to this forum but 150-160 rpm?

Come on your pulling our chain. 130-140 rpm is tops and the rest is fantasy. I did the sums. The Veterans around here are running about 94 gear inches, thats 50 front 14 rear so that's a gain ratio of 3.57. OK so 3.57 x 2,097mm (700x23c roll out) x 140 rpm x 60 minutes = 62 kmh. AT 160 rpm it would be 72 kmh. OK how fast do you think veterans go on moderate gears?

OK those speeds are done in sprints by elite riders but are elite track riders using such low gearing?

Now lets consider 52 front, 13 rear for a gain ration of 4 and a gear inch of 105. 4 x 2097 mm x 140 rpm x 60 minutes = 70 kmh. 70 kmh is it for elite sprints. It they got up to 160 rpm thats 80 kmh! I've never heard of that on a track. Elite level riders are using even bigger gears anyway aren't they?

Regards, Anthony

mickster

The gearing you're quoting seems too high to me. For starters, 50x14 is 96.5 gear inches, not 94. I don't know any Vets sprinters on our tracks who would ride a gear like that in a Match sprint. Maybe in a kilo or a pursuit, if they're extermely strong and its their specialism.
And the 52x13?? That's 108 inches - this is the max gearing allowed in the Goldsprint roller racing comp we're promoting - I can't imagine any situation outside of Rollers where you'd be using a gear that high.

Either the Vets at your track are all super strong (and you're in Oz, so ya never know ) or they're overgeared. Or they're winding you up (which if trackies I know are anything to go by wouldn't be out of the question !)

I agree that 150-160rpm is real fast, but if you rerun your calculations with more realistic gearing (eg we ride 81-84 inch at our indoor 143m track, and between 86-92 at our indoor 250m and outdoor 350m tracks, depending on the race / individual) then this does seem to be what's achievable by us mere mortals in match sprints. And if you train as the man says at 150-160rpm - even if you never reach these speeds whilst racing - then spinning at 140-150rpm is going to be easier, ie overeaching and all that...

Specific gearing debates aside, I think the real point in answer to the novice OP is that I'd suggest focussing on training for leg speed - both at a 'cruising' cadence of say 110rpm so he can sit comfortably in the bunch and expend as little energy as possible doing this and at high cadence sprint speeds of 130+rpm, and let gearing tweaks come later. It's a common assumption by novice trackies to think that the answer to getting quicker is to push a higher gear - I'd suggest that increasing yr cadence on the same gear is the best place to start.

mickster

ZappCatt

Nope, Anthony G was thinking WAY to high Gear Ratios.

AnthonyG

OK to start with gear ratio's, my calculations are accurate. A 700x23c tire has a diameter of 26.3 inches, not 27 inches. The old 27" x 1" was 26.75". If your running specialist track singles at 700x20c then your wheel diameter is only 26.06".

81 gear inches? Thats what I used as restricted gears at 15 years of age!

Lets say your using 48 x 14 x 700-23c for an accurate 90 gear inches. At 140 rpm thats 60 kmh(37.5 mph). I still have trouble believing that you could wind that up another 20 rpm to get to 70 kmh (43.75 mph).

There sprinting at 70 kmh in the TDF but on bigger gears than that.

EDIT: OK I'm planning to start track racing again with about 80-84 gear inches and spinning as hard as I can but that's not going to put me at elite level. I'm spinning pretty damm fast at 135 rpm.

Regards, Anthony

vomitron

I stand by my training recommendations. 160rpm is not difficult to maintain for the durations one maintains them (5-15 seconds, depending on gearing and training goals).

You would use a 160rpm attack on say, the last 100m of a sprint, or up to a flying 200m (if you can maintain 160rpm for 200m, you're doing pretty darn good).

Here's the deal: getting up to 160rpm is hard. This is why olympic teams have pacebikes to get you up to cadence, then they pull off so you can do your intervals. You have to get used to THINKING fast if you want to BE fast.

Now, for points racers, you might be attacking at like, 130-140rpm, because you're attacking for longer. Depends on your event. My point is, if you can't spin a gear at 120rpm and attack at AT LEAST 20 rpm higher, you're pushing too big of a gear for you to be effective. Go to the gym, do some one-legged squats and deadlifts for low reps, high weight, and try again in 6 weeks.

AnthonyG

OK I managed to get to 150 rpm pedaling like a loon downhill in a small gear. I wouldn't say that I producing a lot of power though. Pushing hard I've got to 140 rpm.

Regards, Anthony

WarrenG

Among US Masters at Nat's, 135-155 rpm's for the sprints and 200mTT are common. Gearing ranges from 48x15 to around 49-50x14. If you try to go with a large gear you'll get held/slowed up, and then jumped hard, and while you're trying to get the big gear moving your opponent will be 20m up the road. For points races, rpm's will be around 95-110, and up to 130 during sprints. Average speeds for Masters/Veterans outdoors around 26mph, some higher, some lower. Add about 2mph for an indoor 250m track.

So, for training... Most of the really good sprinters do a fair amount of aerobic training because this creates things in muscle and chemicals that help you recover faster between sprints, and between days of training. By the time you warm up and cool down to do 4-6 sprint rides in a day you may end up doing 50-80kms of riding so you need to be able to handle that easily. Long sprints are becoming more common so you'll need some additional training to support those all out 300m+ efforts. Most sprinters also do kierin and team sprint, both of which require longer efforts.

fordfasterr

This is definately the case @ my home track. The official rings the bell at the start of the last lap... then everybody gets up and pushes hard all the way to the end........

I've seen them pushing so hard on the last lap that they NEVER sit down !!!!! LOL

WarrenG

...Then their gears are way too big or they're really, really bad sprinters.

AnthonyG

Simmilar thing at my track. I've realised that the discrepency in gearing is about the type of racing thats going on. Where I've started to race we don't match sprint. Riders just wind it up to 35-40 kmh (22-25mph) for however many laps and start sprinting from 220-440 m out so bigger gears aren't nessecarily a handicap as they would be in a cat and mouse affair.

I started riding with 73 gear inches and wound it up to 48 kmh in the sprint @ 135rpm.

Regards, Anthony