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Is my frame too small?

Old 01-24-12, 10:34 PM
  #26  
carleton
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Originally Posted by andre nickatina View Post
(I think I already mentioned it but sometimes people get caught up just in the length of the stem without accounting for bar reach as well. A set of Deda Pistas have ~35mm more reach than my current Deda RHM02's, so riding the equivalent position with them would necessitate a 100-110mm stem. No one ever seems to give that combination a second glance, but for some reason doing the equivalent with a 140mm turns some heads. Simple lapse in reasoning, maybe.)
This is true. I have 2 sets of track bars that have at least a 2cm difference in reach. Each bars gets it's own stem.
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Old 01-25-12, 02:32 PM
  #27  
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I haven't fine tuned these positions but feel free to critique. I'm more concerned about getting an idea whether or not this frame is a good size for me. I think I have a natural curvature to my back.


TT Position. 105mm stem. I'm liking how this fits but I think I can achieve just as good of a position on the 56cm (the stem is stacked and angled upwards in this pic and the 56cm headtube is only 10mm taller). Maybe a slightly shorter stem and angle the aero bars slightly more upwards to get my arm position closer to 90 degrees.



Drops (65mm reach) with 120mm stem stacked and flipped upwards (6 degrees). I'd like to try a 130mm-140mm stem but I don't have one lying around. Yes, the saddle is too high here.

I was trying to avoid building up the other frame because I would have to cut the seat mast...

Last edited by kato7997; 01-25-12 at 03:23 PM.
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Old 01-25-12, 03:44 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by kato7997 View Post
I haven't fine tuned these positions but feel free to critique. I'm more concerned about getting an idea whether or not this frame is a good size for me. I think I have a natural curvature to my back.


TT Position. 105mm stem. I'm liking how this fits but I think I can achieve just as good of a position on the 56cm (the stem is stacked and angled upwards in this pic and the 56cm headtube is only 10mm taller). Maybe a slightly shorter stem and angle the aero bars slightly more upwards to get my arm position closer to 90 degrees.



Drops (65mm reach) with 120mm stem stacked and flipped upwards (6 degrees). I'd like to try a 130mm-140mm stem but I don't have one lying around. Yes, the saddle is too high here.

I was trying to avoid building up the other frame because I would have to cut the seat mast...
1) As you've stated, your saddle is too high. Cut the seat mast and use the excess tubing to make 10mm and 5mm shims to fine tune the height. Your saddle height for the TT position will likely be slightly lower than when in the drops.

2) Your hands are too far forward. Your aerobars cannot extend more than 5cm in front of the front axle. This is only important if you are racing a USA Cycling event where they will perform bike checks.

3) I think your bike is too small. At a normally proportioned 5'11", you should probably be on a 57 or maybe a 58cm top tube bike, definitely not a 54cm.
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Old 01-25-12, 04:38 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
1) As you've stated, your saddle is too high. Cut the seat mast and use the excess tubing to make 10mm and 5mm shims to fine tune the height. Your saddle height for the TT position will likely be slightly lower than when in the drops.
I still have some play in the clamp height, I can lower it more.

Originally Posted by carleton View Post
2) Your hands are too far forward. Your aerobars cannot extend more than 5cm in front of the front axle. This is only important if you are racing a USA Cycling event where they will perform bike checks.
I wasn't aware of this. Good to know! I suppose my position there might be a more suitable triathlon position (they tend to be more forward on the saddle though).

Originally Posted by carleton View Post
3) I think your bike is too small. At a normally proportioned 5'11", you should probably be on a 57 or maybe a 58cm top tube bike, definitely not a 54cm.
This confirms what I'm thinking. I just wanted to hear it from someone else

Last edited by kato7997; 01-25-12 at 04:44 PM.
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Old 01-25-12, 09:50 PM
  #30  
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Agreed, try out the 120mm on the larger frame.
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Old 01-26-12, 02:41 AM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
Your aerobars cannot extend more than 5cm in front of the front axle. This is only important if you are racing a USA Cycling event where they will perform bike checks.
Bar location only matters if UCI regs being followed, which I gather from perusing the USA cycling rules page 49 1M e), are for only major events.

Bicycles must meet current UCI technical regulations at events that select 17-18, U23 and elite riders for international competition or national teams. All bicycles used in National Championships (for age 17 and older riders) and NRC races must comply with the current UCI regulations
As to the 5cm's carleton, this isn't so for aerobars. The UCI rule 1.3.022 refers to the front of drop bars being no more than 5cm forward of the axle, not aerobars. And the allowance appears to be 10cm if
the rider who takes part in a sprint, keirin or olympic sprint race, but must not exceed 10 cm in relation to the vertical line passing through the front wheel spindle.
For aerobars, extensions must not be further forward than 75cm (80cm if claiming morphological exception) from the centre of the BB. Rule 1.3.023

The distance between the vertical line passing through the bottom bracket axle and the extremity of the handlebar may not exceed 75 cm
and

For the track and road competitions covered by the first paragraph, the distance of 75 cm may be increased to 80 cm to the extent that this is required for morphological reasons; «morphological reasons» should be taken as meaning anything regarding the size or length of the rider's body parts. A rider who, for this reason, considers that he needs to make use of a distance between 75 and 80 cm must inform the commissaires' panel at the moment that he presents his licence. In such cases the commissaires' panel may carry out the following test: ensuring that the angle between the forearm and upper arm does not exceed 120° when the rider is in a racing position.
Here in Australia; all UCI rules are followed to the letter of the law for every event, regardless how big or small! So we have to have a good understanding and keep up to date as the UCI constantly amend the rules. Though they do really only bother checking at the bigger events, but when they do the bike is on the jig, calipers and scales are out as is the spririt level...
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Old 01-26-12, 02:47 AM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
I think your bike is too small. At a normally proportioned 5'11", you should probably be on a 57 or maybe a 58cm top tube bike, definitely not a 54cm.
Not sure if I agree with this carleton. I am 183cm (just a fraction over 6'), normally proportioned and all my bikes (excluding road TT bike) have a 56cm TT and 120mm stem on the road bike and 110mm on the track bikes.

With the in the drops photo kato7997 does look a little cramped. How far back is the saddle nose back from the centre of the BB? Just thinking rather than adding length to the front that the saddle is too far forward...
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Old 01-26-12, 08:57 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by Dalai View Post
Bar location only matters if UCI regs being followed, which I gather from perusing the USA cycling rules page 49 1M e), are for only major events.
True.

As to the 5cm's carleton, this isn't so for aerobars. The UCI rule 1.3.022 refers to the front of drop bars being no more than 5cm forward of the axle, not aerobars.
I stand corrected. But, I would venture to guess that the tip of those bars might be more than 75cm past the BB, too.
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Old 01-26-12, 08:59 AM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by Dalai View Post
Not sure if I agree with this carleton. I am 183cm (just a fraction over 6'), normally proportioned and all my bikes (excluding road TT bike) have a 56cm TT and 120mm stem on the road bike and 110mm on the track bikes.

With the in the drops photo kato7997 does look a little cramped. How far back is the saddle nose back from the centre of the BB? Just thinking rather than adding length to the front that the saddle is too far forward...
Any pics of you on the bike?
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Old 01-26-12, 09:40 AM
  #35  
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I'm not overly concerned with the regulations but might as well fall within them when possible. Yes, I'm pretty sure those aerobars are extending further than 75cm past the BB.

Originally Posted by Dalai View Post
With the in the drops photo kato7997 does look a little cramped. How far back is the saddle nose back from the centre of the BB? Just thinking rather than adding length to the front that the saddle is too far forward...
I don't have an accurate way to measure the position. It seems like a pretty standard position where it is now.
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Old 01-26-12, 10:43 AM
  #36  
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Take your bike to the track, and try riding it and a larger size (rental bike) there. Which feels to be a better fit?

There should be people there who can help you with the fit. When watching someone ride the track, it is often pretty obvious to track people which frame is too big/small, and what adjustments need to be made to get a better fit. You are getting good info here, but nothing beats having experienced people watch you ride in person. Besides, you mind find someone looking to buy/sell the type of bikes you are talking about.
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Old 01-26-12, 01:50 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by kato7997 View Post
Again, yes, I know...the fit sucks. I'm more concerned about the frame sizing but yes, I know if it was a better fit it would be easier to tell what I needed.
here's the thing - the difference that you are asking us about is dependent on you having a proper fit. this is the reason that bike fitters take all of your measurements before selecting a bike size and don't just look at your height and pick a frame. further muddying the waters is the fact that the bike will be used for two different riding positions. right now, all we have is your height and a poor picture of you riding a bike that is not at all fitted - certainly less than ideal circumstances to chose between two frames with a stack and reach difference of .97 and 1.30 cm respectively.

pretty much immediately, we can all tell that your saddle is very high - not by a mm or two, but perhaps by an inch or more. it seems that you are reluctant to cut the seatmast any more than you have already - is there any way that you could get a saddle with a lot less "stack" so that you could simulate a lower saddle height? i often find that when people reduce their saddle height to more conventional levels, the back and hamstring suddenly become much more flexible and get rid of the hump back. until we cure that saddle height issue, i don't think we are going to really know what is going on.

the good news is that either frame can certainly be made to work. cheers.
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Old 01-26-12, 08:16 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
Any pics of you on the bike?
Not recently...

Video from the Points Qualifier at the 2009 World Masters Track Championships - http://www.cyclingmasters.tv/#53a663...phabetical,All

Event 189 - Mens 35-39 Points Race Heats 15,000m (60 laps) I get a point early in the second qualifier which starts half way in to the video and I bridge across to a solo rider at 37min and get a few minutes camera time. Red skin suit...

Last edited by Dalai; 01-26-12 at 08:29 PM.
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Old 01-26-12, 08:28 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by kato7997 View Post
I don't have an accurate way to measure the position. It seems like a pretty standard position where it is now.
Sit bike upright on level floor. Hang string with small weight at the bottom from the tip of the saddle and then measure the distance between the string and centre of the BB axle. Not as accurate as a test jig the commissaires sit the bike in but will do for now...
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Old 01-26-12, 09:07 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by Dalai View Post
Not recently...

Video from the Points Qualifier at the 2009 World Masters Track Championships - http://www.cyclingmasters.tv/#53a663...phabetical,All

Event 189 - Mens 35-39 Points Race Heats 15,000m (60 laps) I get a point early in the second qualifier which starts half way in to the video and I bridge across to a solo rider at 37min and get a few minutes camera time. Red skin suit...
Nice race. How did you do in the next round? I'd like to race Masters Worlds one year. I'm still not ready yet.

BTW, do you run your saddle at 72-73 degrees? I run mine at around 75 degrees.

Last edited by carleton; 01-26-12 at 09:14 PM.
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Old 01-27-12, 01:15 AM
  #41  
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Not sure what seat angle I run. From memory my saddle nose is just on 5cm behind the BB... Ground is sloping so will look slacker than it actually is.

Photo just after I bought my track bike. Very little adjustment since other than dropping another spacer and rotating the bars slightly.



Finals of the Points race was super quick - goal for me was to just not get lapped. Ended the 30km in 37'38" (just under 48km/hr average) staying on the same lap but no points, coming 15th (16 finished) out of the 24 finalists. It was only my second year track racing so was happy just to make the finals for this race.

If the Worlds are in your country, go in regardless whether you feel ready or not. Sydney is only 10 hours drive from Melbourne so I had to go! Heading overseas is another story, but perhaps one day if I can find another 9 seconds for the 3km IP.

Last edited by Dalai; 01-27-12 at 06:39 AM.
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Old 01-27-12, 06:45 AM
  #42  
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Found a picture on my home PC from the 2010 Australian Masters Track Championships - in another breakaway

Best I could find of me racing, but unfortunately still doesn't really show my fit on a 56cm... Red skinsuit again.

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Old 01-27-12, 08:49 AM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by Dalai View Post
Not sure what seat angle I run. From memory my saddle nose is just on 5cm behind the BB... Ground is sloping so will look slacker than it actually is.

Photo just after I bought my track bike. Very little adjustment since other than dropping another spacer and rotating the bars slightly.

If I recall correctly, that bike (2007 Fuji Track Pro, great bike BTW) has a seat tube angle of 74 degrees. You are using a set-back seatpost which puts the center of your saddle rails about 1.5-2cm back from the center of the seat tube line. 1cm change in saddle setback is approximately 1 degree change in effective seat tube angle. So, your effective seat tube angle is (74 - 1.5) or (74-2) which is 72.5 or 73 degrees...as an armchair bike fitter

This is where you are getting your extra arm reach. Your legs are allowing you to scoot your bum back which stretches your arms to a suitable position. This is common for enduro racers. Less weight on the arm/shoulders which is more comfortable for longer races. If you rode in a neutral 74 degree saddle position or a Sprinter-friendly 75 or 76 degree saddle position, you'd want a longer top tube as your hands would be much closer to being under your shoulders making your arms nearly vertical.


Originally Posted by Dalai View Post
Finals of the Points race was super quick - goal for me was to just not get lapped. Ended the 30km in 37'38" (just under 48km/hr average) staying on the same lap but no points, coming 15th (16 finished) out of the 24 finalists. It was only my second year track racing so was happy just to make the finals for this race.

If the Worlds are in your country, go in regardless whether you feel ready or not. Sydney is only 10 hours drive from Melbourne so I had to go! Heading overseas is another story, but perhaps one day if I can find another 9 seconds for the 3km IP. [/IMG]
That's impressive making it to the final and not getting pulled. Averaging 48kph for nearly 40' is fast and tough. I agree with you about racing as many big races as you can before you are ready (if finances permit). I raced Masters and Elite Track Nationals before I was ready to be competitive. I learned a lot about jitters, nerves, warmups without getting track time, etc... that would have been major distractions when I was ready. So, the next time I go, I won't be so nervous and I'll be ready to get to work! Also, once I started racing really big events, the local and regional events weren't so nerve-racking.

Last edited by carleton; 01-27-12 at 08:56 AM.
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Old 01-27-12, 07:54 PM
  #44  
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I've generally found that going from a solid endurance fit to match sprinting, I really don't have to make any adjustments at all besides maybe rotating the bars a hair up. If you can spin fast and keep your back mostly aero on the enduro fit, you shouldn't have any impediments sprinting.

But the guys who only do match sprinting can definitely mess with getting their bars as low as possible, no matter how uncomfortable it may be for anything longer than 8 laps, for that all-out intensity and low center of gravity.
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Old 01-28-12, 03:17 PM
  #45  
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Couple good shots I found of the pure match sprinter position, just for reference:

Sir Chris Hoy


Some local/national caliber domestic sprinters:

Note the downward angling of the arms versus the photos I posted of Anquetil and Hinault. The fundamentals of a good sprint vs. enduro position are very similar in my opinion, you're just dropping a few more spacers or getting deeper drop bars for the sprint. Less sustainable position in a long race, but great for that sub-1k of all out power. Always remember there's a point where you've gone too low, though - arched back, inability to breathe fully, knees full-on hitting you in the chest.

At the opposite end of ideal fits would be my friend here:

Albeit that's not her bike and she's not a racer, but you can see a difference. Arms reaching way out and straight/not relaxed (meaning the core/back has to pick up the grunt work), arched back, bars too low.

Last edited by andre nickatina; 01-28-12 at 03:27 PM.
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Old 01-28-12, 03:34 PM
  #46  
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I like ^this post a lot. Along with all the great advice on fit, this sounds like a good guideline to follow.
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Old 02-08-12, 04:34 PM
  #47  
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Ok. Built up the 56cm.


Aero bars + 90mm stem (10 degrees up). Bars are slightly long and I'm "choking" them. Might try a 80mm stem.



Drops + 120mm stem (6 degrees up). Should have flipped the stem (or longer stem?).


In TT position I like the 54cm and 56cm equally I think. With drops, the 56cm seems to be a better fit...

Last edited by kato7997; 02-08-12 at 05:35 PM.
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Old 02-08-12, 08:15 PM
  #48  
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My thoughts are, for the drops position, you could still add a cm or so to the stem and/or angle the bars slightly up to increase reach. Arm extension is improved, but could still be improved further.

Did you lower the seat at all? Shoot a photo with your right foot at 6 o'clock.
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Old 02-08-12, 09:21 PM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by kato7997 View Post
Ok. Built up the 56cm.


Aero bars + 90mm stem (10 degrees up). Bars are slightly long and I'm "choking" them. Might try a 80mm stem.



Drops + 120mm stem (6 degrees up). Should have flipped the stem (or longer stem?).


In TT position I like the 54cm and 56cm equally I think. With drops, the 56cm seems to be a better fit...
You don't need a shorter stem. The rule of thumb is to have your elbows under your ears. Your elbows are not under your ears now and definitely should not go further back.

Consider using ski-bend bars if you need more control. I grip the hell out of mine during kilo efforts.

Your 120mm stem will reach further when you flip it. Angles. See here for yourself: http://alex.phred.org/stemchart/Default.aspx

Originally Posted by andre nickatina View Post
My thoughts are, for the drops position, you could still add a cm or so to the stem and/or angle the bars slightly up to increase reach. Arm extension is improved, but could still be improved further.

Did you lower the seat at all? Shoot a photo with your right foot at 6 o'clock.
I agree with all of this.

kato7997, do this. Mount the bike with cycling shoes and shorts. Get settled into where your butt likes to be in the saddle. On one side, rotate till the crank on that side is furthest away requiring the longest extension of your leg. This is tough to do on a track bike because you have to roll or dismount...unless you have it mounted in a trainer. Now unclip that foot. Can you touch the pedal (above the spindle) with a little firmness (not barely) with the heel of your shoe? If not, that's a good sign that your saddle is too high.
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Old 02-08-12, 10:49 PM
  #50  
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I'm gonna say for the hell of it, go from a 120 to 140 on the drops. Keep the saddle-to-bar drop conservative, work on flexibility and core strength in the mean time. As those improve, flip the stem. Hunch feel based on the pics.
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