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Old 09-26-15, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by seau grateau
Thanks, carelton. On a similar note, is there any general rule about MTB pedals on the track?
Originally Posted by carleton
The general rule is to not use them.
I don't think that there is any general rule about MTB pedals. It's perfectly fine to use them, neither UCI, USAC nor ATRA have anything against it.

I have always ridden Shimano SPD MTB on the Dick Lane Velodrome.

The only disadvantage is the relatively small contact area, thus the pressure on your sole is higher. Nobody is able to pull vertically out of an Shimano SPD. The problem with uncliping is always a twisting movement of the foot. But Shimano SPDs can be set pretty hard. Mine are not even set to the max and I have never had a problem. I'm not exactly a small light weight guy. Mounting straps is awkward unless you use something like the Shimano PD-M324.

Shimano first clipless pedal was the Dura Ace 7401, which was made by LOOK (My pair has written "made in France" on it). After that they came out with the SPD-MTB pedals and then the SPD-R pedals, which were highly appreciated by quite a number of track sprinters. The SPD-R mechanism is pretty similar to the SPD-MTB.

Thomas

P.S. Having said that, I wouldn't recommend them if you want to buy something new. This is mainly because the number of MTB shoes with really stiff soles is pretty limited. But if you have them already, go ahead. No safety issues. Maybe you get a nasty look from Carleton.

Last edited by Tman1965; 09-26-15 at 02:41 PM.
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Old 09-26-15, 02:53 PM
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Haha, right on. I have a set of Time ATACs and I think some Shimano SPDs as well lying around in the parts bin. Just checking out options. Thanks for the reply.
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Old 09-27-15, 09:02 AM
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I've pulled vertically out of spd pedals before doing Cyclocross starts. I had the tension pretty low so I wouldn't be stuck in them when they got clogged with mud, but it's definitely possible. They also have a cleat intended for easy release that's designed to allow you to pull out upwards, I certainly wouldn't use that on the track. I'd consider mtb pedals on the track a suboptimal solution that may be fine for casual riding but should be approached knowing it has limitations that are sensitive to set up.
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Old 09-27-15, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Tman1965
I don't think that there is any general rule about MTB pedals. It's perfectly fine to use them, neither UCI, USAC nor ATRA have anything against it.

I have always ridden Shimano SPD MTB on the Dick Lane Velodrome.

The only disadvantage is the relatively small contact area, thus the pressure on your sole is higher. Nobody is able to pull vertically out of an Shimano SPD. The problem with uncliping is always a twisting movement of the foot. But Shimano SPDs can be set pretty hard. Mine are not even set to the max and I have never had a problem. I'm not exactly a small light weight guy. Mounting straps is awkward unless you use something like the Shimano PD-M324.

Shimano first clipless pedal was the Dura Ace 7401, which was made by LOOK (My pair has written "made in France" on it). After that they came out with the SPD-MTB pedals and then the SPD-R pedals, which were highly appreciated by quite a number of track sprinters. The SPD-R mechanism is pretty similar to the SPD-MTB.

Thomas

P.S. Having said that, I wouldn't recommend them if you want to buy something new. This is mainly because the number of MTB shoes with really stiff soles is pretty limited. But if you have them already, go ahead. No safety issues. Maybe you get a nasty look from Carleton.
Yeah...you'd deserve a nasty look.

Dude, WTF are you talking about? MTB pedals are designed for shedding mud and easy exit.

SPD-R are not SPD.

Saying SPD-R is SPD is like saying SPD-SL is SPD.

Yes, your "made in France" look pedals have a clamping mechanism that is as soft as butter. I've owned those.

The only riders that SPD cleats *might* be appropriate for are kids who are not very strong.

If you don't believe me, unclip 1 time at 30mph and let me know what you think then

Why risk it when SPD-SL pedals can be bought for as little as $35USD?
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Old 09-27-15, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Tman1965
I don't think that there is any general rule about MTB pedals. It's perfectly fine to use them, neither UCI, USAC nor ATRA have anything against it.

I have always ridden Shimano SPD MTB on the Dick Lane Velodrome.

The only disadvantage is the relatively small contact area, thus the pressure on your sole is higher. Nobody is able to pull vertically out of an Shimano SPD. The problem with uncliping is always a twisting movement of the foot. But Shimano SPDs can be set pretty hard. Mine are not even set to the max and I have never had a problem. I'm not exactly a small light weight guy. Mounting straps is awkward unless you use something like the Shimano PD-M324.

Shimano first clipless pedal was the Dura Ace 7401, which was made by LOOK (My pair has written "made in France" on it). After that they came out with the SPD-MTB pedals and then the SPD-R pedals, which were highly appreciated by quite a number of track sprinters. The SPD-R mechanism is pretty similar to the SPD-MTB.

Thomas

P.S. Having said that, I wouldn't recommend them if you want to buy something new. This is mainly because the number of MTB shoes with really stiff soles is pretty limited. But if you have them already, go ahead. No safety issues. Maybe you get a nasty look from Carleton.
I ride on velodromes in Poland, Netherlands, Belgium and UK... MTB pedals are banned on every single one of them.
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Old 09-27-15, 10:08 PM
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Originally Posted by carleton
Yeah...you'd deserve a nasty look.

Dude, WTF are you talking about? MTB pedals are designed for shedding mud and easy exit.
not exactly Shimano's idea:
from the Shimano Manual
Single release mode cleats:
SM-SH51 (black)
These cleats only release when the heel is twisted outward.
They will not release if the heel is twisted in any other direction. (That's not true, they also release if the heel is twisted inward, but the force is higher.)
You are able to apply upward force to the pedal, since they will not
release unless the foot is twisted outward.
The cleats will not necessarily release if you lose your balance.
Accordingly, for places and conditions where it looks as though you
may lose balance, make sure that you have sufficient time to release
the cleats beforehand.
Originally Posted by carleton
SPD-R are not SPD.

Saying SPD-R is SPD is like saying SPD-SL is SPD.
Dear Carleton,
You seem seem to have a reading comprehension problem. Where did you read that SPD-R is the same as SPD-MTB?
(similar≠same)
Nevertheless if you take a look at the cleats you might be able (or not) to see that they have certain similarities. Starting with the fact that both are made of steel, shape of the "noses" etc. Of course there are 3 different types of SPD-R cleats with different float and none of them offers the idiotic vertical release of the multi release cleat SM-SH56.
Apart from that if you look at the rear part of the binding I would be interested to hear what's so different between SPD-R and SPD? You might consider to explain that by using Shimano's technical documents:
PD-M520 Shimano cheapest MTB pedal
Dura Ace PD7701

Originally Posted by carleton
Yes, your "made in France" look pedals have a clamping mechanism that is as soft as butter. I've owned those.
I don't know which problem you had with LOOK deltas. They are just part of my collection. I've only ridden LOOK Keos.
Originally Posted by carleton
The only riders that SPD cleats *might* be appropriate for are kids who are not very strong.

If you don't believe me, unclip 1 time at 30mph and let me know what you think then
Dear Carleton,
I do not believe you! This is not about faith, it's about knowledge. I'm not a kid, I ride faster than 30mph on the DLV, I use PD-M520s, I haven't uncliped.
I'm not light (more later), I don't have your superpowers, but I can dish out some 950+ Watts for 30 seconds. That's good enough for more than 30mph...(see above)

Kids... some of the kids at the DLV will ride the crap out of you and me.

Originally Posted by carleton
Why risk it when SPD-SL pedals can be bought for as little as $35USD?
The risk only exists in your head.
The $35 do not include the shoes, or do they?
And now in the name of science, for the greater good of humanity, and not to forget, for my ego:
(I did that before I read your reply)

The Experiment

[TABLE="class: grid, width: 1000, align: center"]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Okay, what do we have here: a garage, a crank with a Shimano PD-M520 (about 1500miles), a brand new (didn't want to remove the used ones from my shoes) SM-SH51 cleat, a cord, and an old seatpost.
And a test load of 211lbs. The pedal was set to the easiest setting. Speed 0mph. The cleat did not unclip.

Can you pull more than 211lbs with one leg, Carleton? Can you pull more than that at 30mph?
This pull force during a standing start might be possible (though I have my doubts), but for sure not at speed.
You are invited to come over (30021) and check the test setting while consuming a cold beverage or some hot coffee.

This is just to show that vertical pulling is rarely a problem with pedals (I should check the old 7401s too).
The problem is foot movement, especially twisting of the heel to the outside. The SH-SM51 gives you 4 freedom, more and you unclip.
With SPD-SL it depends on the cleat : red 0, blue 2 , and yellow 6. Straps can reduce the amount of twisting.

Finally, like I already said: I wouldn't recommend SPD-MTB, if one has to buy them. The contact area is smaller than road pedals, thus the pressure is higher. The choice of shoes with really stiff soles is limited.
But there is no technical reason to claim that they pose a higher risk!

P.S. Why do I ride the SPDs? I had SPD on the MTB and on the road bike. I bought KEOs and shoes for the road bike, but I didn't see a huge advantage and they were pretty inconvenient if you go down stairs. So I sold them and stuck with the SPD. Contrary to popular belief I don't want to fall on my face and therefore I tested the SPDs as good as I could on the road.

BTW: Have you ever tried to ride SPD on the track? Or is your experience only hearsay? And I mean on the track, not on a crummy MTB trail.
And the invitation is serious, I'm not interested in fighting.
Attached Images
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Last edited by Tman1965; 09-27-15 at 10:12 PM. Reason: Spelling error
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Old 09-27-15, 10:22 PM
  #2607  
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Originally Posted by Murakami
I ride on velodromes in Poland, Netherlands, Belgium and UK... MTB pedals are banned on every single one of them.
At least Manchester doesn't seem to care: Safety Information

nor London Lee Valey: VeloPark Rules and Regulations

Derby Arena, UK Where is that written?

Alkmaar, NL ????

Might be easier if you give me a link to such a safety regulation.

P.S. I don't speak Polish, my Dutch is only fragments, my French more than rusty, but I'm fluent in English and German.

Last edited by Tman1965; 09-27-15 at 10:48 PM. Reason: London added & Derby
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Old 09-28-15, 04:37 AM
  #2608  
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I'll probably be going to Encino to start, no ban there as far as I know.
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Old 09-28-15, 08:54 AM
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What if the cleat is worn out? My LOOKs can't wait to jump out of the pedal when they get worn down




I coach new riders at our track so I see hundreds of mountain bikers and triathletes and am quite used to seeing MTB pedals/cleats. They work for newbies, not sure I've seen anyone race in them, and I would think the bigger issue would be finding a decent shoe that wasn't soft/velcro, and the very small contact point (mixed with a flexible sole).


so it works sure, just as a track bike with very small drop outs, but why make your life harder than it needs to be.
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Old 09-28-15, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by gtrob
What if the cleat is worn out? My LOOKs can't wait to jump out of the pedal when they get worn down




I coach new riders at our track so I see hundreds of mountain bikers and triathletes and am quite used to seeing MTB pedals/cleats. They work for newbies, not sure I've seen anyone race in them, and I would think the bigger issue would be finding a decent shoe that wasn't soft/velcro, and the very small contact point (mixed with a flexible sole).


so it works sure, just as a track bike with very small drop outs, but why make your life harder than it needs to be.
I already agreed with you.
Originally Posted by Tman1965
...
Finally, like I already said: I wouldn't recommend SPD-MTB, if one has to buy them. The contact area is smaller than road pedals, thus the pressure is higher. The choice of shoes with really stiff soles is limited.
But there is no technical reason to claim that they pose a higher risk! ...
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Old 09-28-15, 09:02 PM
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I believe the prohibition on SPD cleats by some tracks is that they can damage the track (not to mention being a slip hazard).

Also the SPD cleats use two screws whereas the SPD-SL cleats use three screw so SPD-SL cleats are more secure.
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Old 09-28-15, 09:27 PM
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ugh, speaking from someone who went mountain biking last saturday and lost one of those screws, and was STUCK in one of my pedals...(with only one left the cleat just spun around with the pedal). I guess thats the alternative from pulling out by accident

I find cleat bolts constantly in the infield at the track lol
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Old 09-29-15, 01:53 AM
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Originally Posted by 700wheel
I believe the prohibition on SPD cleats by some tracks is that they can damage the track (not to mention being a slip hazard).

Also the SPD cleats use two screws whereas the SPD-SL cleats use three screw so SPD-SL cleats are more secure.
No. It's about foot retention.

Pulling out of a pedal on the road or trail is no big deal. Doing so on the track can have serious consequences because you cannot coast. Once your foot is out, *if* you don't become unbalanced and enter a speed wobble or collide with another rider, it is *very* difficult to get it back into the pedal that is rotating at 100-120+ rpm.

I don't understand why this is up for debate.
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Old 09-29-15, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Tman1965

Shimano first clipless pedal was the Dura Ace 7401, which was made by LOOK (My pair has written "made in France" on it).
Originally Posted by carleton

Yes, your "made in France" look pedals have a clamping mechanism that is as soft as butter. I've owned those.
The first generation Dura Ace clipless pedals (PD-7401) are pretty good track pedals for most racers. They have adjustable tension, and when cranked down to the max are very secure. Other Look and Look style pedals of that era with lower max tension should probably be avoided.

One way to test pedals is to do a couple full tilt standing starts in a big gear, varying which foot is forward. The backstroke and upward pull on the rear pedal should be a good test of retention. If you ever pop out, FIX THE PROBLEM.
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Old 09-29-15, 02:46 PM
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i would also recommend madison throws with riders who have 100+ pounds on you.

throwing a heavier relief rider in at a high speed differential will test your pedals.
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Old 09-29-15, 02:58 PM
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Some of us have to work really hard to find someone who weighs 100 pounds more.
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Old 09-29-15, 05:06 PM
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Last edited by Tman1965; 09-29-15 at 05:22 PM.
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Old 09-29-15, 05:07 PM
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Last edited by Tman1965; 09-29-15 at 05:21 PM.
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Old 09-30-15, 01:49 PM
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So I think I'm gonna get some SPD-SL's. *putting lid on can of worms*
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Old 09-30-15, 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by wens
Some of us have to work really hard to find someone who weighs 100 pounds more.
Seconded. I also don't know if I want to throw someone who weighs 315 lbs.
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Old 10-01-15, 08:42 AM
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Ive been the 100lbs heavier person in a madison, and while I love throwing my partner halfway around the track, his exchange doesn't feel like much more than a high five.
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Old 10-01-15, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by gtrob
Ive been the 100lbs heavier person in a madison, and while I love throwing my partner halfway around the track, his exchange doesn't feel like much more than a high five.
"Next time around just slap my ass, that get's me going more than that tickle you call a throw."
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Old 10-01-15, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Tman1965
Have raced in Alkmaar and can confirm. No MTB pedals allowed. Not everything is on the web.
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Old 10-01-15, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by misterwaterfall
"Next time around just slap my ass, that get's me going more than that tickle you call a throw."
Hahahaha

Actually, early Madison exchanges involved the relief rider being pushed on the hip by the outgoing rider. Similar to this:




I've seen photos of some sort of rod/stick sort of affixed (sewn?) into the left hip area of the riders so that their teammate could grip right there. Google isn't helping me find any such photo right now.

BTW, exchanges do not have to be a sling. Just a touch.
Changing shall be by one rider drawing level with the other and touching to denote relief.
Slinging is just gettin' fancy.
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Old 10-01-15, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by misterwaterfall
"Next time around just slap my ass, that get's me going more than that tickle you call a throw."
You'd never hear that sort of language coming from an Enduro.
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