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Old 01-14-16, 03:01 PM
  #2976  
sergioflorez
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no youtube livestream of today's world cup? just showing for sunday. bummer


*anyway to watch a (free) stream of today's event. if shown on sky or eurosport or whatever? im not familiar.

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Old 01-14-16, 03:37 PM
  #2977  
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Originally Posted by dunderhi View Post
I think I'm going to be sick. Please send me your address and I'll send you a razor.
Ha, on that subject, do you guys shave?
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Old 01-14-16, 03:59 PM
  #2978  
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Originally Posted by jt_uk View Post
Ha, on that subject, do you guys shave?
My legs are clean shaven before I take the start line of any race.
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Old 01-14-16, 04:01 PM
  #2979  
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Originally Posted by jt_uk View Post
Ha, on that subject, do you guys shave?
Not over the winter. Will start again as soon as the temperature is reasonable again or I can get on an indoor track.
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Old 01-14-16, 05:29 PM
  #2980  
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Originally Posted by jt_uk View Post
Ha, on that subject, do you guys shave?
No, because I barely have hair on my legs and arms. Which is weird....., but it's good for cyclist lol
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Old 01-14-16, 07:03 PM
  #2981  
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Originally Posted by sergioflorez View Post
no youtube livestream of today's world cup? just showing for sunday. bummer


*anyway to watch a (free) stream of today's event. if shown on sky or eurosport or whatever? im not familiar.
World champs yes, but not for world cup. There's usually a condensed highlight after the fact you can watch, but only thing live I have ever seen is the tissot timing (which is at least instant timing results)
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Old 01-14-16, 09:36 PM
  #2982  
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Hi guys , I'm not a racer but I love everything Velodrome . I took the cert class at this place , LAVRA | LA Velodrome Racing Association and then shortly after I had a street accident , I thought I was done with bikes so I sold everything . That was a mistake , well I'm getting back into it . I have a new road bike and I'm putting together a velodrome bike , I like steel . Anyhow , I forgot the gearing for LA . When I first started the cert class my gearing was wrong and that hurt me and my instructor would not really give me a good answer , he just told me I was to low, well I understood that but I wanted a number . One of my classmates told me 88" was a good place to start , I think that's what he said . But I can't remember , what do you guys think ?
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Old 01-14-16, 09:52 PM
  #2983  
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88" is a standard beginner race gear, but something like 80" is a good warm-up gear and what you'd want for the cert classes there. You'll want both regardless to start racing/training on the track. Welcome back!
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Old 01-14-16, 10:56 PM
  #2984  
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Originally Posted by markwesti View Post
Hi guys , I'm not a racer but I love everything Velodrome . I took the cert class at this place , LAVRA | LA Velodrome Racing Association and then shortly after I had a street accident , I thought I was done with bikes so I sold everything . That was a mistake , well I'm getting back into it . I have a new road bike and I'm putting together a velodrome bike , I like steel . Anyhow , I forgot the gearing for LA . When I first started the cert class my gearing was wrong and that hurt me and my instructor would not really give me a good answer , he just told me I was to low, well I understood that but I wanted a number . One of my classmates told me 88" was a good place to start , I think that's what he said . But I can't remember , what do you guys think ?
Welcome back.

Read this thread: http://www.bikeforums.net/track-cycl...ack-racer.html
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Old 01-15-16, 01:59 AM
  #2985  
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Pacer/Derny training: Any of you guys have the opportunity to do this? I'm just wondering what the standard approach is during the season... big gears behind derny for strength at the beginning or small gears for spinning at the start of the season? Danke.
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Old 01-15-16, 09:10 AM
  #2986  
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Originally Posted by Murakami View Post
Pacer/Derny training: Any of you guys have the opportunity to do this? I'm just wondering what the standard approach is during the season... big gears behind derny for strength at the beginning or small gears for spinning at the start of the season? Danke.
speed work all year round
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Old 01-15-16, 09:40 AM
  #2987  
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Im not sure its worth getting that complicated (small gears first part of the season, big later, or other way around).

I always describe the bike sessions as a way to get the high speed, high intensity training without using up your energy 'getting' there. In that sense, I generally go a bigger gear since Im not going to tire myself out with the 0-50kmh part, and just get the 50+ stuff. If I want to spin to 150rpm, I don't need a moto for that. I don't need a track for that lol.
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Old 01-15-16, 09:48 AM
  #2988  
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Originally Posted by gtrob View Post
Im not sure its worth getting that complicated (small gears first part of the season, big later, or other way around).

I always describe the bike sessions as a way to get the high speed, high intensity training without using up your energy 'getting' there. In that sense, I generally go a bigger gear since Im not going to tire myself out with the 0-50kmh part, and just get the 50+ stuff. If I want to spin to 150rpm, I don't need a moto for that. I don't need a track for that lol.
+1

The general purpose of moto training is to get the body accustomed to working at max speed that you would encounter at the apex of a race. This includes G-forces, muscle firing rates (the rate at which you fire particular muscles to keep the "gas" on the pedals), bike handling, etc...That way it's not new and awkward to you when you hit 43MPH in a race chasing some guy through turn 4 and you are distracted by the new sensations.

One example workout is "the come-around" drill where the rider follows the derny up to race pace and into turns 3/4 and out of turn 4 the rider will jump out into the wind and try to overtake the dermy (usually pulling alongside) then going into turn 1 he'll fade back behind the derny and take a few laps and repeat. For sprinters, this simulates the end of a match sprint and for enduros this simulates a sprint for points and recovery.

I've even seen Madison riders practice behind a derny where they ride behind, do an exhange, then throw the incoming rider on to the back of the bike...repeat. Again, simulating race-paced events.

Murakami,

Some use derny training as "rollers on the track" kinda thinking. Basically, for an easy warmup or workout at race-pace without having to fight wind. Some tracks will offer a derny-paced warmup paceline where the derny leads and no one has to take pulls. This is like some VIP sh*t People love this.

Last edited by carleton; 01-15-16 at 09:51 AM.
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Old 01-15-16, 09:55 AM
  #2989  
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Further, I think derny training is to fine-tune high speed stuff during mid or late season. In off season, I've only seen it used as a warmup tool.
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Old 01-15-16, 10:01 AM
  #2990  
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I swear this is my last post...

Murakami, one thing to note is that there is a unique combination of
- G forces
- Torque required to push the pedals
- Legspeed required to keep the legs from intefering with the turning pedals (resulting in negative wattage that slows you down)
- Bike handling

...that ONLY occur during race-pace drills using race gears at race speeds on the track.

There are generally only 2 ways to get this training:

- Race
- Use a derny

Racing takes A LOT of energy. It takes a lot of energy to get up to race pace. If your objective is to train at race pace, you will spend a HUGE chunk of energy just getting there. So, the derny eliminates that first part so you can efficiently train the race pace part a lot more during a training session.

The bigger (rhetorical) question is: Is this the right time in your annual training plan to work on race pace training?
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Old 01-15-16, 10:19 AM
  #2991  
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Yeah, I think it's important to remember the POINT of motorpacing, and to plan the workout accordingly.

Somebody working on WINNING races is going to want to pace behind the motor and then sprint around it; somebody working on SURVIVING races is just going to want to be paced at higher-than-comfortable speeds and do some hang-on windups.

A former teammate of mine preferred to motorpace at moderate speeds in a moderate gear to work on legspeed; I found that strange, but it worked for him. I preferred to motorpace at high speeds (55kph), occasional sprints + chase back on, and windups to finish each motorpaced interval. It did a great job of race simulation that was harder than races I was doing; 3x 50-lap sessions was a pretty tough workout.
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Old 01-15-16, 11:04 AM
  #2992  
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I know a few people that just like to just go fast for little work, like the VIP session Carl mentions. I don't really get it, from an endurance point of view, of going 50kmh but at 200w. Yes you get to feel the speed, but its at a pretty relaxed effort. There is value in going faster than you can go on your own, but I think there is more value in trying to hold it yourself once you are there. I realize we are getting a lot deeper than 'what gear should I use' lol.


Speaking from how the national team here trains, which is almost every day, lately they have been sharing the track between endurance (TP) and sprinters since its too cold outside and world cups are upon us. I don't think I have seen the TP use the moto even once, they usually just do a flying start to 'save their legs'. On the other hand, just about every single effort the sprinters do starts behind the bike (other than specific F200 practice or standing). Sometimes they will stay behind the bike but he is doing 70kmh+ and they ALWAYS try to come around it at the end. If you are not coming around the bike I don't know what you are training for, because that is how you win a bike race

Also as a side note, they always have the front disc on (rear being a boxed training wheel). Not for the speed, but rather the sensation.

Ive seen the JR and development teams do TP behind the moto, but its rare and for the purpose of feeling a higher speed for the first time I think.
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Old 01-15-16, 11:11 AM
  #2993  
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For those wondering about why the sensation is important: ever see a speed wobble at +40mph/+65kph? A slight wobble moves the rider a good bit up track and some riders will lay off the gas if that happens. So, regularly riding at high speeds helps train the handling and train the butt cheeks not to clench.
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Old 01-15-16, 11:50 AM
  #2994  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
+1


One example workout is "the come-around" drill where the rider follows the derny up to race pace and into turns 3/4 and out of turn 4 the rider will jump out into the wind and try to overtake the dermy (usually pulling alongside) then going into turn 1 he'll fade back behind the derny and take a few laps and repeat. For sprinters, this simulates the end of a match sprint and for enduros this simulates a sprint for points and recovery.
Yes, have done this, and also another where derny driver comes alongside and grabs jersey and brings up to 60kph and pushes you off at 200m line, whereupon you've to try and keep the pace or accelerate.

Have also used for TP training, where last man suffers to hold on with the first man having most protection.

The reason I ask about big vs small gears is because I tend to get a lecture from someone each time I show up, sometimes I'm on small gears and sometimes I'm on big. I like to go big for the short sessions, sprinter type, but smaller for the longer ones. That make sense?
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Old 01-15-16, 01:19 PM
  #2995  
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Thanks for the info guys , Mark .
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Old 01-15-16, 01:47 PM
  #2996  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
For those wondering about why the sensation is important: ever see a speed wobble at +40mph/+65kph? A slight wobble moves the rider a good bit up track and some riders will lay off the gas if that happens. So, regularly riding at high speeds helps train the handling and train the butt cheeks not to clench.
+1

Not flinching when you bobble at those speeds is so important. Its amazing how much speed you lose, although jamming to get back on the moto when it happens is always good training too, I guess.
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Old 01-15-16, 01:48 PM
  #2997  
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Originally Posted by gtrob View Post
I know a few people that just like to just go fast for little work, like the VIP session Carl mentions. I don't really get it, from an endurance point of view, of going 50kmh but at 200w. Yes you get to feel the speed, but its at a pretty relaxed effort. There is value in going faster than you can go on your own, but I think there is more value in trying to hold it yourself once you are there. I realize we are getting a lot deeper than 'what gear should I use' lol.
Yeah. Steady state efforts might be good for people who basically want a controlled way to get their heartrate up, but motorpacing as a racing tool should be ****ing grueling.

I think it's important to go fast. Hard. So fast that you're at or above your threshold and you have to figure out how to meter your efforts with microbursts (above threshold) and microrests, and you feel every instance of gaining or losing tiny amounts of shelter behind the motor. I think it's important to go so fast that you're afraid you won't get to the end of your interval. I think it's important to get wound up to such a high speed until the motor finally pulls away from you.

And it's important to do this over and over until you are a babbling idiot at the end of the workout who can barely figure out how to order a burrito when you walk in the joint down the street.
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Old 01-15-16, 03:09 PM
  #2998  
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I go so fast I usually don't even START my interval

....
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Old 01-15-16, 05:35 PM
  #2999  
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How comparable are power readings on a static spin bike to a real world situation?
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Old 01-15-16, 05:48 PM
  #3000  
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Originally Posted by Banchad View Post
How comparable are power readings on a static spin bike to a real world situation?
According to one published paper that I read (that I can't cite because I can't find it), power output on spin bikes is comparable to what one can do in the real world.

Of course, it depends on the spin bike and the quality of the power measurement (i.e. is it a crap power meter or not). Also, crazy high "blips" show up even in the best power meters. Back when I first started racing I was good for about 1,500-1,700W. One day I saw "Max Wattage: 2,400W" from my older SRM and was like "Whoooooah!!...." But what had happened was that the power meter got wet during a rainstorm when the bike was on top of the car the day before. Condensation was still in there monkeying with the sensors.

So, you have to take the numbers you get with any power meter with a dose of common sense.
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