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Old 01-16-16, 10:14 AM
  #3001  
Banchad
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
According to one published paper that I read (that I can't cite because I can't find it), power output on spin bikes is comparable to what one can do in the real world.

Of course, it depends on the spin bike and the quality of the power measurement (i.e. is it a crap power meter or not). Also, crazy high "blips" show up even in the best power meters. Back when I first started racing I was good for about 1,500-1,700W. One day I saw "Max Wattage: 2,400W" from my older SRM and was like "Whoooooah!!...." But what had happened was that the power meter got wet during a rainstorm when the bike was on top of the car the day before. Condensation was still in there monkeying with the sensors.

So, you have to take the numbers you get with any power meter with a dose of common sense.
I've emailed the manufacturers of the bike I use(Matrix IC7). Their website claims the power meter in the bike is accurate to +/- 1% and never needs recalibration due to it using photocells which I believe is an extremely similar concept to the Ergomo Pro Powermeter that was floating around a few years ago. I'm taking this with a hell of a pinch of salt as the maximum I've ever seen on my Garmin Vector is 1400 ish whereas I'm seeing 2000+ on this static bike. I'd try to compare it on the other static bike they have in the gym but its out of commission for the moment.

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Old 01-16-16, 11:07 AM
  #3002  
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Originally Posted by Banchad View Post
I've emailed the manufacturers of the bike I use(Matrix IC7). Their website claims the power meter in the bike is accurate to +/- 1% and never needs recalibration due to it using photocells which I believe is an extremely similar concept to the Ergomo Pro Powermeter that was floating around a few years ago. I'm taking this with a hell of a pinch of salt as the maximum I've ever seen on my Garmin Vector is 1400 ish whereas I'm seeing 2000+ on this static bike. I'd try to compare it on the other static bike they have in the gym but its out of commission for the moment.

In my limited experience calibrating laboratory equipment you can claim a 1% accuracy, and not mention that it's for 25-650 watts. Another hypothesis could relate to the sample-rate. If you Garmin only samples at 1Hz (1 time per second) it'll miss a LOT of data for efforts like sprinting. However, if your ergo samples at 100Hz, or 500Hz, then you're very likely to put up much higher numbers.
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Old 01-16-16, 12:16 PM
  #3003  
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Originally Posted by JimiMimni View Post
In my limited experience calibrating laboratory equipment you can claim a 1% accuracy, and not mention that it's for 25-650 watts. Another hypothesis could relate to the sample-rate. If you Garmin only samples at 1Hz (1 time per second) it'll miss a LOT of data for efforts like sprinting. However, if your ergo samples at 100Hz, or 500Hz, then you're very likely to put up much higher numbers.
I didn't know that about not needing to be accurate at all power ranges to claim a certain accuracy. Interesting.
I did know that about that about Garmin headunits only being able to sample at 1 a second. I'm writing my dissertation on power meters and have had to take this into consideration. Either way it'll be interesting to see what they come back with.
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Old 01-16-16, 01:48 PM
  #3004  
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Any recommendations for inexpensive single compound clinchers? I'll be starting towards my accreditation at my local track soon and would rather use my own bike, looking for some appropriate tyres to use though I've no idea where to begin.
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Old 01-16-16, 02:15 PM
  #3005  
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Originally Posted by Co1Ev View Post
Any recommendations for inexpensive single compound clinchers? I'll be starting towards my accreditation at my local track soon and would rather use my own bike, looking for some appropriate tyres to use though I've no idea where to begin.
Vittoria Diamante Pro Pista. I use them myself on my training clinchers.
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Old 01-16-16, 02:57 PM
  #3006  
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Originally Posted by Co1Ev View Post
Any recommendations for inexpensive single compound clinchers? I'll be starting towards my accreditation at my local track soon and would rather use my own bike, looking for some appropriate tyres to use though I've no idea where to begin.
I use Conti Supersonics and Veloflex Record clinchers. At my track (41 degree wood) riders use a wide variety of tires including road tires.

You might some more insight reading though the track tire questionsection http://www.bikeforums.net/track-cycl...estions-6.html
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Old 01-16-16, 03:34 PM
  #3007  
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Thanks! I'll have a read.

Edit: Didn't even realise it was a sticky My bad.

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Old 01-16-16, 08:48 PM
  #3008  
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Originally Posted by Banchad View Post
I didn't know that about not needing to be accurate at all power ranges to claim a certain accuracy. Interesting.
I did know that about that about Garmin headunits only being able to sample at 1 a second. I'm writing my dissertation on power meters and have had to take this into consideration. Either way it'll be interesting to see what they come back with.
Market is magical! They're claiming it's accurate to that percentage, but NEVER disclose what their calibration procedure is, or what ranges are tested, so it's completely plausible that (especially dynamic!) efforts can slip through the cracks. They aren't lying, they're just not offering full disclosure. A new professor savaged our calibration procedures for equipment in grad school because it was a completely static procedure.

If you're doing actual scientific research, beg, borrow, or steal an SRM. I believe their track-specific model has a 50hz sampling rate. At any rate, it is WELL above the typical ANT+ 1Hz sampling. I hope your dissertation is smooth sailing!
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Old 01-16-16, 10:46 PM
  #3009  
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Originally Posted by Banchad View Post
I've emailed the manufacturers of the bike I use(Matrix IC7). Their website claims the power meter in the bike is accurate to +/- 1% and never needs recalibration due to it using photocells which I believe is an extremely similar concept to the Ergomo Pro Powermeter that was floating around a few years ago. I'm taking this with a hell of a pinch of salt as the maximum I've ever seen on my Garmin Vector is 1400 ish whereas I'm seeing 2000+ on this static bike. I'd try to compare it on the other static bike they have in the gym but its out of commission for the moment.

This is where being able to download the data will come in handy. If you hit 2000w in one particular file, you will see some 1700, 1800, and 1900w values leading up to that and after that. Also, in other files you will see similarly high values.

My max wattage I've ever recorded was 2,170. I feel confident with that number being that I could regularly clock over 2,000w on any good day.

Originally Posted by Banchad View Post
I didn't know that about not needing to be accurate at all power ranges to claim a certain accuracy. Interesting.
I did know that about that about Garmin headunits only being able to sample at 1 a second. I'm writing my dissertation on power meters and have had to take this into consideration. Either way it'll be interesting to see what they come back with.
Originally Posted by JimiMimni View Post
Market is magical! They're claiming it's accurate to that percentage, but NEVER disclose what their calibration procedure is, or what ranges are tested, so it's completely plausible that (especially dynamic!) efforts can slip through the cracks. They aren't lying, they're just not offering full disclosure. A new professor savaged our calibration procedures for equipment in grad school because it was a completely static procedure.

If you're doing actual scientific research, beg, borrow, or steal an SRM. I believe their track-specific model has a 50hz sampling rate. At any rate, it is WELL above the typical ANT+ 1Hz sampling. I hope your dissertation is smooth sailing!
+1

Banchad, sampling rate is VERY important. A lot can happen between two 1-second samples This is why SRM made the Scientific model which samples at 10Hz (10 samples per second) which is tops in the industry. It's faster than any system that uses Bluetooth can muster being that Bluetooth transmission is capped at 2hz (I think). Unfortunately I don't believe that the "Science Track" is that model. I don't know why they are using the name "Science" here. It's their normal Track power meter that measures at most 2hz (which is awesome and industry-leading, btw), but it's not the older Science model. This one is only $2,600. The Science model was much higher.

SRM PowerMeter SRM Science Track

That being said, they make all of the power meters by hand and will custom make you one. My track PM was custom.

If you don't have the time and or money for a custom power meter, I'd consider using published and accepted cycling power meter data from guys like Martin and build on their data sets.
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Old 01-16-16, 10:47 PM
  #3010  
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Originally Posted by Co1Ev View Post
Any recommendations for inexpensive single compound clinchers? I'll be starting towards my accreditation at my local track soon and would rather use my own bike, looking for some appropriate tyres to use though I've no idea where to begin.
Conti Supersonics. I switched to latex tubes at the same time I went to these tires and really like the combination. Very supple and sticky. There have been some reports of short lifespan, but I have had a pair last most of a season on a wood track, training and racing 2-3 times a week. I'm not light, either.

I have used Conti GP 4000 (S? Black Chili? Whatever they call it these days) on the road forever, but prefer the Supersonics for the track.
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Old 01-16-16, 10:58 PM
  #3011  
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From the Matrix website:

300-degree magnetic resistance adjustment lets riders quickly dial-in the perfect resistance level with just a flick of the wrist
Matrix Fitness

I'm guessing that it uses magnetic eddy current resistance and somehow calculates power based on it. That's the same thing that the old Cateye CS-1000 did.

I would not rely on any power numbers from the Matrix IC7 as being reliable. I had a Cateye CS-1000 and an SRM at the same time, and the numbers were wildly far apart sometimes.
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Old 01-17-16, 02:40 AM
  #3012  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
From the Matrix website:



Matrix Fitness

I'm guessing that it uses magnetic eddy current resistance and somehow calculates power based on it. That's the same thing that the old Cateye CS-1000 did.

I would not rely on any power numbers from the Matrix IC7 as being reliable. I had a Cateye CS-1000 and an SRM at the same time, and the numbers were wildly far apart sometimes.
If you look at this link Team ICG® - IC7 - Features
'The WattRate® (Power) meter is located at the intermediate transmission and uses photocells to directly measure the torsion (twisting force) of the spindle'
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Old 01-17-16, 04:07 AM
  #3013  
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Originally Posted by Banchad View Post
If you look at this link Team ICG® - IC7 - Features
'The WattRate® (Power) meter is located at the intermediate transmission and uses photocells to directly measure the torsion (twisting force) of the spindle'
OK. Yeah, like the Ergomo as you mentioned.

Can you download the data to see how frequently it records and what happened before and after the 2,000W entry?
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Old 01-17-16, 06:23 AM
  #3014  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
sampling rate is VERY important. A lot can happen between two 1-second samples This is why SRM made the Scientific model which samples at 10Hz (10 samples per second) which is tops in the industry. It's faster than any system that uses Bluetooth can muster being that Bluetooth transmission is capped at 2hz (I think). Unfortunately I don't believe that the "Science Track" is that model. I don't know why they are using the name "Science" here. It's their normal Track power meter that measures at most 2hz (which is awesome and industry-leading, btw), but it's not the older Science model. This one is only $2,600. The Science model was much higher.

SRM PowerMeter SRM Science Track
This is dubbed the Science model based on accuracy of +- 0.5%. I have an older Science wired model which also had that range of accuracy.
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Old 01-17-16, 06:25 AM
  #3015  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
OK. Yeah, like the Ergomo as you mentioned.

Can you download the data to see how frequently it records and what happened before and after the 2,000W entry?
Ergomo only measured left leg power and doubled as per Stages etc...
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Old 01-17-16, 09:12 AM
  #3016  
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I see Jason Kenny got a gold in the mens team pursuit in Hong Kong, just watching the sprint where he got taken by Patrick Constable, Kenny is a lot slimmer than the other riders. How would someone of his build look to train. I suppose his main focus would be leg speed more so than power?
If the brits turn out a strong performance at the Olympics (aside from Trott who is on fire) you would be very surprised, maybe?
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Old 01-17-16, 10:13 AM
  #3017  
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Wattage-based training questions

Okay, I'm old dog trying to learn a new trick...

I want to give wattage-based training a try this season. So far, I have a TACX Neo trainer with the TrainerRoad software and have started Base Phase workouts this week. I've also developed season goals and mapped out a training plan with general track racing and pursuiting in mind; no crits or road racing. I have two pursuits as my ultimate goals and I should have two opportunities to race pursuits prior to those events. I have two road bikes that have similar geometries to my mass start and pursuit bike that I plan to use on my trainer. I also have a road bike with a more relaxed geometry that I prefer for outdoor training due to the local terrain which requires a lot of climbing (not a flat mile to be found).

Am I good leaving the power-based training to the trainer and my road miles would be on rest days or would it be better to start equipping bikes too? If yes, which bike(s) would be most important: the road bike with many more miles of training opportunities, the mass start track bike that I will race once a week, or the pursuit bike to support key event measurements prior to the big events? I prefer to have longer crank arms on my pursuit bike, so transferring cranks between bikes wouldn't be ideal, but doable if compatible. Which are the best steps equipment-wise? Which brands/models are the most accurate and reliable (that is, if those two can be combined)? As far as equipment preferences, I like Shimano Dura Ace for both road and track, but I'm not 100% hardover on that line-up. Your thoughts will be most appreciated. Thanks in advance.
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Old 01-17-16, 01:58 PM
  #3018  
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Originally Posted by jt_uk View Post
I see Jason Kenny got a gold in the mens team pursuit in Hong Kong, just watching the sprint where he got taken by Patrick Constable, Kenny is a lot slimmer than the other riders. How would someone of his build look to train. I suppose his main focus would be leg speed more so than power?
If the brits turn out a strong performance at the Olympics (aside from Trott who is on fire) you would be very surprised, maybe?
Armchair Physics:

Power = % of Fast-Twitch Muscle Fiber Type
Speed = Power/Weight/frontalArea

Also, the biggest force one has to overcome is wind resistance, not acceleration. Wind resistance increases exponentially. This is why me, a REALLY BIG GUY (read: fat), who could make 2,100W couldn't post elite F200M times. I'm a rolling refrigerator.

The bottom line is:

A "slim" sprinter can be just as fast (if not faster) than a really muscular one. Look at Victoria Pendleton and Theo Bos vs their contemporaries.


Originally Posted by dunderhi View Post
Okay, I'm old dog trying to learn a new trick...

I want to give wattage-based training a try this season. So far, I have a TACX Neo trainer with the TrainerRoad software and have started Base Phase workouts this week. I've also developed season goals and mapped out a training plan with general track racing and pursuiting in mind; no crits or road racing. I have two pursuits as my ultimate goals and I should have two opportunities to race pursuits prior to those events. I have two road bikes that have similar geometries to my mass start and pursuit bike that I plan to use on my trainer. I also have a road bike with a more relaxed geometry that I prefer for outdoor training due to the local terrain which requires a lot of climbing (not a flat mile to be found).

Am I good leaving the power-based training to the trainer and my road miles would be on rest days or would it be better to start equipping bikes too? If yes, which bike(s) would be most important: the road bike with many more miles of training opportunities, the mass start track bike that I will race once a week, or the pursuit bike to support key event measurements prior to the big events? I prefer to have longer crank arms on my pursuit bike, so transferring cranks between bikes wouldn't be ideal, but doable if compatible. Which are the best steps equipment-wise? Which brands/models are the most accurate and reliable (that is, if those two can be combined)? As far as equipment preferences, I like Shimano Dura Ace for both road and track, but I'm not 100% hardover on that line-up. Your thoughts will be most appreciated. Thanks in advance.

I'll write more later. Headed out right now.

For those who train with PMs on every bike for every session, the PM is really a fatigue meter. Basically lets the person evaluating the data know how the rider is responding to stimulus and more importantly, when they are tired. RPE (Rated Perceived Exertion) isn't as objective as power or torque values.

I personally don't think you need PMs on all bikes, but those who coach from PMs will require you to have them on all bikes.

I personally think you should coach yourself to cadence.

I'll write more later. Maybe you will start a separate thread on this as this will probably be a popular thread.

EDIT:

I think PMs are great for pacing pursuit efforts or trying not to pop during long group races.

Last edited by carleton; 01-17-16 at 02:16 PM.
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Old 01-17-16, 02:06 PM
  #3019  
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Further...

Slim sprinters have added advantages:

- They have to move less air.
- They draft much more effectively than larger riders.
- They provide much less draft for larger riders that are trailing them.
- The expend less energy throughout a tournament.
- They make less body heat (which leads to fatigue).
- They dissipate body heat much faster than if they had more muscle mass.

TRUST me. I've been on the wrong end of ALL of those before. When I race smaller guys I get NO draft whatsoever when I'm following and they get a crazy draft when they do. One of my main issues was longevity in a tournament. I'd qualify OK and my first 2 rounds would be solid, but after than, my energy fell off a cliff. I'd struggle to stay cool. Hot summer days were the worst.
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Old 01-17-16, 03:56 PM
  #3020  
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1. Elis Lightlee by comparison to her fellow racers is huge. You'd wonder how somebody such as her will progress over the years compared to someone like Vogel who is much smaller but has a very powerful build.

Isn't the current trend going towards bigger gears? Which would favour the bigger stronger riders, meaning a smaller quicker rider has to rely on tactics to keep the sprint as short as possible.
On the other hand I noticed commentators remarks about the Chinese sprinters coming to prominence, these guys are smaller but are always in the medals.

The impression I get from watching the race events is that power not cadence is king.

2. I've only been into track cycling for 12 months, what I've noticed is there seems to be a lot of riders peaking and troughing etc. Since the London Olympics Kenny has been very quiet, has he won a major individual title? I think you once remarked how the GB team seem to work at peaking for the big events. Same with Bauge, where has he been?
Whereas you have the Aussies such as Meares or Vogel who are always racing.
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Old 01-17-16, 05:29 PM
  #3021  
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Wait– Kenny was riding team pursuit???

Edit: Just looked, nope. Kian Emadi has switched to TP it looks like at least for this round.
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Old 01-17-16, 05:53 PM
  #3022  
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Originally Posted by Baby Puke View Post
Wait– Kenny was riding team pursuit???

Edit: Just looked, nope. Kian Emadi has switched to TP it looks like at least for this round.
Jason Kenny helped Great Britain to their first gold medal on the second day of the Track World Cup Series in Hong Kong. Riding alongside Philip Hindes and Callum Skinner, Kenny’s trio clinched the men’s team pursuit. The women’s team pursuit and women’s team sprint squads won silver medals.
Kenny’s trio produced a 43.751sec ride to better Poland’s Maciej Bielecki, Mateusz Lipa and Kami Kuczynski. “Really happy with that,” Kenny told britishcyling.org. “Getting a couple of second rides in and having the confidence to change team and still perform with a different lineup.”

Got that from the UK Guardian website. I watched the footage on youtube but didn't see that particular event, saw his sprint againt Constable.

UPDATE: haha just watched it on youtube, team sprint - sorry

Last edited by jt_uk; 01-17-16 at 06:05 PM. Reason: dont be so nosy!!
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Old 01-17-16, 07:14 PM
  #3023  
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Originally Posted by jt_uk View Post
I see Jason Kenny got a gold in the mens team pursuit in Hong Kong, just watching the sprint where he got taken by Patrick Constable, Kenny is a lot slimmer than the other riders. How would someone of his build look to train. I suppose his main focus would be leg speed more so than power?
If the brits turn out a strong performance at the Olympics (aside from Trott who is on fire) you would be very surprised, maybe?
There are a few misconceptions in your post here. Kenny is slimmer than many other sprinters, but he's not slim. Or rather - don't let his upper body fool you about his lower body. He has a lot of muscle. But don't let that fool you, either - muscle size does not mean muscle strength.

You can't speculate about training based on somebody's physique. At that level, everything is so damn specialized as they reach for tiny marginal gains that matter - physique is just not much of a determinant.

And lastly - leg speed and power are not opposites. You can't get to legspeed without power. I know what you're going for (some riders are more lithe and some are more brute-force, and it shows; some are acceleration riders and some are top-end riders), but it's a lot more nuanced than legspeed vs power.
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Old 01-17-16, 07:28 PM
  #3024  
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Originally Posted by jt_uk View Post
1. Elis Lightlee by comparison to her fellow racers is huge. You'd wonder how somebody such as her will progress over the years compared to someone like Vogel who is much smaller but has a very powerful build.

Isn't the current trend going towards bigger gears? Which would favour the bigger stronger riders, meaning a smaller quicker rider has to rely on tactics to keep the sprint as short as possible.
On the other hand I noticed commentators remarks about the Chinese sprinters coming to prominence, these guys are smaller but are always in the medals.

The impression I get from watching the race events is that power not cadence is king.

2. I've only been into track cycling for 12 months, what I've noticed is there seems to be a lot of riders peaking and troughing etc. Since the London Olympics Kenny has been very quiet, has he won a major individual title? I think you once remarked how the GB team seem to work at peaking for the big events. Same with Bauge, where has he been?
Whereas you have the Aussies such as Meares or Vogel who are always racing.
Gearing is just a leverage ratio. That leverage ratio is use to overcome air resistance. Higher leverage ratios result in more distance covered per pedal stroke. Speed is directly related to cadence and gearing. Speed is related to power and air resistance. So air resistance is the force needed to be overcome. If a rider has to move less air, then they don't need as much force to apply through the lever to get them moving through that air. Size of rider has nothing to do with it. Power vs. Drag is what determines speed. How you get there can be done either through large gears or higher cadence. The reason you are seeing larger gears is it's effect on microphysiology. Rider's muscles get microbreaks as they pedal. Larger gears change the length and frequency of these microbreaks, but this is going to be highly individual for each rider.
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Old 01-17-16, 11:37 PM
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carleton
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Originally Posted by jt_uk View Post
The impression I get from watching the race events is that power not cadence is king.
I think you are mistaking "Cadence is King" to mean that the goal is to achieve as high a cadence as possible.

No, that's not what I mean by Cadence is King. That's like saying you should rev a manual transmission car as high as you can to make it go fast. You can do that in 1st gear and not go very fast.

You probably noticed that their cadences were a mere mortal 120-140rpm. That's for good reason

Cadence should be monitored very closely in your training and racing. Just like a car has an optimal power band of engine RPM where torque and power are greatest, so do you. There is a Cadence Sweet Spot that you should strive to hit in order to maximize power and ultimately speed.

I say that Cadence is King because your Cadence ranges determine your Gearing Choices, Power Output, and ultimately your Speed Output.

People think that Cadence should be maximum. Nope. Power is always maximum for sprinters. Maximum power with the right gearing to keep you in the right cadence range at the right time makes you fast at the right time during your event.

Last edited by carleton; 01-17-16 at 11:50 PM.
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