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Old 01-18-16, 04:39 AM
  #3026  
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Good stuff guys, thanks for all the replies.
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Old 01-18-16, 06:10 AM
  #3027  
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Originally Posted by dunderhi View Post
Okay, I'm old dog trying to learn a new trick...

I want to give wattage-based training a try this season. So far, I have a TACX Neo trainer with the TrainerRoad software and have started Base Phase workouts this week. I've also developed season goals and mapped out a training plan with general track racing and pursuiting in mind; no crits or road racing. I have two pursuits as my ultimate goals and I should have two opportunities to race pursuits prior to those events. I have two road bikes that have similar geometries to my mass start and pursuit bike that I plan to use on my trainer. I also have a road bike with a more relaxed geometry that I prefer for outdoor training due to the local terrain which requires a lot of climbing (not a flat mile to be found).

Am I good leaving the power-based training to the trainer and my road miles would be on rest days or would it be better to start equipping bikes too? If yes, which bike(s) would be most important: the road bike with many more miles of training opportunities, the mass start track bike that I will race once a week, or the pursuit bike to support key event measurements prior to the big events? I prefer to have longer crank arms on my pursuit bike, so transferring cranks between bikes wouldn't be ideal, but doable if compatible. Which are the best steps equipment-wise? Which brands/models are the most accurate and reliable (that is, if those two can be combined)? As far as equipment preferences, I like Shimano Dura Ace for both road and track, but I'm not 100% hardover on that line-up. Your thoughts will be most appreciated. Thanks in advance.
Where are you mentally on doing most of your training indoors? What's your budget for power meters? If your main goal is pursuit and your budget allows, I'd want a pm on that bike. The caveat is there aren't many good track bike options. Personally I'd also put a pm on your outdoor road bike because you can ride that on the trainer as well. If you're on your mass start bike a couple times a week I wouldn't worry about the positon difference between relaxed road and mass start track at all. I would worry about adaptation and power loss in the aero position on the pursuit bike; between power drop and being your main goal I'd really want power on that bike, and plan to train in that position until you get the power drop down to, say, 5% from your mass start position.

You can move the power meter on your pursuit bike to your mass start bike if you're motivated enough, but I wouldn't consider that super necessary.
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Old 01-18-16, 11:50 AM
  #3028  
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I just realized I actually have to follow UCI rules this weekend. How likely is a m/l giant omnium with 90 mm carbon rims and no weight weenie parts to be under minimum weight?

Yes, I'm going to weigh it when I get home, but I'm starting to think about adding weight now in case I have to.
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Old 01-18-16, 12:01 PM
  #3029  
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Originally Posted by wens View Post
I just realized I actually have to follow UCI rules this weekend. How likely is a m/l giant omnium with 90 mm carbon rims and no weight weenie parts to be under minimum weight?

Yes, I'm going to weigh it when I get home, but I'm starting to think about adding weight now in case I have to.
it's unlikely that you'll be under the weight limit, but if you have some spare links of old chain, bring 'em - plus some newspaper. you can wrap the chain in newspaper and stuff it up the seatpost.
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Old 01-18-16, 12:02 PM
  #3030  
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@wens Thanks!

Originally Posted by wens View Post
Where are you mentally on doing most of your training indoors?
My motivation is high with the trainer, but the reality check for me is that it is only January. I'm not sure what my motivation will be for indoor training in June, since I've never stayed indoors beyond March in the past. TrainerRoad does provide a different workout for almost session, so there's a chance it might stay fresh. Also, periodization and power trainer is new to me, so maybe I could remain focused on the big picture rather than each Saturday's results.


Originally Posted by wens View Post
What's your budget for power meters?
Tough question, if it was up to me, I would equip each bike with a PM, but Mrs D would have a much different perspective. So for now, let's assume that I can get one - independent of price.

Originally Posted by wens View Post
If your main goal is pursuit and your budget allows, I'd want a pm on that bike. The caveat is there aren't many good track bike options.
I found this, which looks like a pretty nice track solution: SRM Training System - Track


Originally Posted by wens View Post
Personally I'd also put a pm on your outdoor road bike because you can ride that on the trainer as well.
My indoor trainer already has power.

Originally Posted by wens View Post
If you're on your mass start bike a couple times a week I wouldn't worry about the position difference between relaxed road and mass start track at all.
Got it. I'll also be using my mass start bike on the rollers during the winter/preseason.

Originally Posted by wens View Post
I would worry about adaptation and power loss in the aero position on the pursuit bike; between power drop and being your main goal I'd really want power on that bike, and plan to train in that position until you get the power drop down to, say, 5% from your mass start position.
I have a matching time trial bike that I was planning to use on the indoor trainer to get comfortable with the aero position and power delivery.

Originally Posted by wens View Post
You can move the power meter on your pursuit bike to your mass start bike if you're motivated enough, but I wouldn't consider that super necessary.
I use 165 & 170mm cranks on my mass start bike and 172.5mm with the potential of going to 175mm on my pursuit bike. If I only have one unit, do you think it would be better to pick one (170?) and share between the bikes? I find I can spin quite well in a mass start, but I tend to push in the pursuit. Hopefully the trainer will allow me experiment much more than I have in the past.
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Old 01-18-16, 04:11 PM
  #3031  
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Originally Posted by wens View Post
I just realized I actually have to follow UCI rules this weekend. How likely is a m/l giant omnium with 90 mm carbon rims and no weight weenie parts to be under minimum weight?

Yes, I'm going to weigh it when I get home, but I'm starting to think about adding weight now in case I have to.

Weight won't be an issue. Only people I see go under are very small bikes and small carbon wheels (like 202s).

The seat is what gets people. Assuming they are enforcing the new 9deg rule that probably isn't an issue, but they do measure the full saddle, so a flat saddle with a kick up at the back looks quite a bit down. You do need to be 5cm+ back from the BB, but the Omnium design doesn't put you that far forward anyway. Again, more of an issue for people very short/xs bikes. Seat angle at 3deg was a real pain on some seats.

Pursuit bars are another thing people fail on a lot but won't be the case here, but something to consider if you come up for provincials in March (and you should!).
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Old 01-18-16, 04:12 PM
  #3032  
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Originally Posted by wens View Post
I just realized I actually have to follow UCI rules this weekend. How likely is a m/l giant omnium with 90 mm carbon rims and no weight weenie parts to be under minimum weight?

Yes, I'm going to weigh it when I get home, but I'm starting to think about adding weight now in case I have to.
I rode a Small Omnium w/ disc&trispoke for two years, I wasn't at the weight limit - but my disc was an older HED model.
I'd tend to think that you'll be fine.

for ROM, weigh yourself while holding bike and while not holding it. If your 90mm wheels are generic china specials, you should be fine. If they are 808s and you have a thin/light saddle, it'll be closer.
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Old 01-18-16, 04:42 PM
  #3033  
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Saddle is a phenom, so relatively flat. I think I would have been fine on 3 degrees after a slightly hokey measurement, so I'm not very worried about 9.

Wheels are planet x, so gigantex rims and, I'm guessing, formula hubs. Not super light. Sounds like I should be fine, I suppose I'll stand on a scale with the bike so I feel better though.
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Old 01-18-16, 06:08 PM
  #3034  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
OK. Yeah, like the Ergomo as you mentioned.

Can you download the data to see how frequently it records and what happened before and after the 2,000W entry?
This is from another sprint I did today and its the best data I can get even though its probably utter garbage.
Please ignore the .2 on the first value
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Old 01-18-16, 06:36 PM
  #3035  
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That's pretty good! Over 2G for 5s power. Next time, hold out for 11 seconds, and you can get 10s and 5s Power in one shot. I used to do 15s every once in a while because it was good for F200 analysis.
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Old 01-18-16, 06:45 PM
  #3036  
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Originally Posted by taras0000 View Post
That's pretty good! Over 2G for 5s power. Next time, hold out for 11 seconds, and you can get 10s and 5s Power in one shot. I used to do 15s every once in a while because it was good for F200 analysis.
2000W for 5s? I wish! The time increments are .5 seconds.
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Old 01-18-16, 07:14 PM
  #3037  
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Originally Posted by Banchad View Post
This is from another sprint I did today and its the best data I can get even though its probably utter garbage.
Please ignore the .2 on the first value
Yeah, that's what I'd expect the distribution to look like. Good job, man!

Originally Posted by Banchad View Post
2000W for 5s? I wish! The time increments are .5 seconds.
2,000W for 5s is "You are getting a phone call from someone at USA Cycling" power.
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Old 01-18-16, 07:47 PM
  #3038  
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Originally Posted by wens View Post
Saddle is a phenom, so relatively flat. I think I would have been fine on 3 degrees after a slightly hokey measurement, so I'm not very worried about 9.

Wheels are planet x, so gigantex rims and, I'm guessing, formula hubs. Not super light. Sounds like I should be fine, I suppose I'll stand on a scale with the bike so I feel better though.
15.6 lbs on my bathroom scale, so I guess I'm fine. Stupid rule for track bikes though.
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Old 01-18-16, 08:21 PM
  #3039  
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Originally Posted by wens View Post
15.6 lbs on my bathroom scale, so I guess I'm fine. Stupid rule for track bikes though.
Bathroom scales can be off by a lot. Trust me, I monitored my weight religiously for years and generic bathroom scales are the worst for being accurate or repeatable.

That being said, tell us about your event. Are they going to weigh every bike and send you packing if you are 1oz under 15lbs or if you don't fit on the bike jig? Or is it on the honor system where they want everyone to do their best to get used to racing under UCI/USA Cycling rules. I would do this. It would suck to train the entire season with your saddle 2cm behind your BB then realize at Nationals you have to be 5cm back. It may not affect your performance, but it may affect your confidence*.

*I once had bike check 15 minutes before a Kilo at Masters. I failed because my aerobar extensions were like 6" too far forward. I had to hustle and adjust them as opposed to getting ready for my event. I was rattled a bit.

The reason I ask is that Bike Check is time (and resource) consuming. I've been to Masters Track Nationals where they express: If you think you are going to break a national or world record, go to bike check before you race. Otherwise, it's on the honor system.
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Old 01-18-16, 10:46 PM
  #3040  
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Originally Posted by wens View Post
Saddle is a phenom, so relatively flat. I think I would have been fine on 3 degrees after a slightly hokey measurement, so I'm not very worried about 9.

Wheels are planet x, so gigantex rims and, I'm guessing, formula hubs. Not super light. Sounds like I should be fine, I suppose I'll stand on a scale with the bike so I feel better though.
HA! I also used a Phenom, stellar track saddle for years- until I got myself into a +45' track race, then I realized that it didn't have enough padding
Good luck, what's the event you are looking at, something to the north of US?

Originally Posted by carleton View Post
Bathroom scales can be off by a lot. .
they can, but I *think* I recall Wens talking about weight and tracking his reasonably well - it's at least a start and I think he's likely using a decent one.

Wens - One other thing you can do is go to any bike shop you like, they'll have a scale and can sort out the weight stuff for you.
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Old 01-18-16, 10:47 PM
  #3041  
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Originally Posted by wens View Post
Wheels are planet x, so gigantex rims and, I'm guessing, formula hubs. Not super light. Sounds like I should be fine, I suppose I'll stand on a scale with the bike so I feel better though.
I mean, how picky are the judges going to be? **technically**, generic carbon wheels aren't UCI legal, but I've never had a UCI ref call me on it.
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Old 01-19-16, 01:52 AM
  #3042  
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UCI approved wheels rule only applied to road wheels...
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Old 01-19-16, 06:13 AM
  #3043  
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Originally Posted by dunderhi View Post
Okay, I'm old dog trying to learn a new trick....
Really depends on which bike you will be riding the key sessions on? You said your trainer has power, if using this primarily for your intervals you will ideally want to ride the bike with the PM a few times to see how close the trainer is to the PM which I would expect to be more accurate.

Normally if only having one PM, I'd suggest the road bike if that is your primary interval bike. I have SRM's on most of my bikes. Of all the bikes the least beneficial is on the CX bike, closely followed by the track bike as I do most of my key interval work outs on the road bike. On the track the one real benefit I've found it having data from my Pursuits to review and plan my training accordingly.

Since you plan on using the trainer once you can confirm its accuracy then a Track PM could be a good thing. Not sure about the Rotor Track SRM, but be aware the SRM crankarmed Track cranks were not waterproof. Worth noting if you wanted to use outdoors in inclement weather. You can though actually change the crank arms if you want to have different lengths. My older cranks have the bolts accessible from the front and I did buy a set of 175mm arms with the intention to swap from the 170mm arms for pursuits. Since I've read a number of studies, but mostly couldn't be bothered so have stuck with the 170's for pursuiting and bunch races.

Another better valued track crank (not sure if waterproof) is the Power2Max units. Only downside IMO with the P2Max unit is you can't do a static calibration like an SRM to confirm the slope value is correct. This may not be an issue for you but I am disappointed this cannot be done otherwise they have been around a while now and I haven't heard of many issues since they started producing V2.
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Old 01-19-16, 06:40 AM
  #3044  
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Originally Posted by Hida Yanra View Post
HA! I also used a Phenom, stellar track saddle for years- until I got myself into a +45' track race, then I realized that it didn't have enough padding
Good luck, what's the event you are looking at, something to the north of US?



they can, but I *think* I recall Wens talking about weight and tracking his reasonably well - it's at least a start and I think he's likely using a decent one.

Wens - One other thing you can do is go to any bike shop you like, they'll have a scale and can sort out the weight stuff for you.
I actually have phenoms on all my bikes, so I've gotten accustomed to the lack of padding. I actually used the first iteration of the ronin for a while, but I kept breaking shells somehow.

Heading up to race in Ontario. It's a good thing the people who complain about usac rules don't have to deal with UCI ones, they'd lose their s***. So many of these rules are just not well executed.
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Old 01-19-16, 08:25 AM
  #3045  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
The reason I ask is that Bike Check is time (and resource) consuming. I've been to Masters Track Nationals where they express: If you think you are going to break a national or world record, go to bike check before you race. Otherwise, it's on the honor system.
Both times I've been to elite nats, Bike Check starts out fairly 'rigorous' - they put the bike in the jig, eyed it closely, and then put it on the scale. and, later on in the week (particularly for mass start races), Bike Check began to be, "yup, it's the same bike as you had before; put it on the scale. okay."
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Old 01-19-16, 09:45 AM
  #3046  
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Originally Posted by wens View Post
I actually have phenoms on all my bikes
as do I- they are fantastic - Specialized used to make a TT version of the Phenom w/ the same shape, but a bunch more padding on the nose - it looks similar but visibly different - I switched to that one after the races started getting long, and I was doing them on on shorter tracks - YMMV, but if you ever run into that issue, the Phenom Gel is worth a look. link to one

Sorta thought you might be headed to Ontario- I'd love to hear a report on the track and the facilities up there? I don't know much about that track.
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Old 01-19-16, 12:03 PM
  #3047  
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Ontario races under a UCI license, so enforces UCI rules for track. Before each race you have to check in at bike check, they sometimes weigh the bike, they ALWAYS check the saddle and bars in a jig (takes about 30 seconds). Zero tolerance, Ive had to adjust a 3.2deg seat before, and push back a seat that was 2mm too far. Also a rollout for Jrs as they have gear restrictions.

almost all pass for mass start and sprint rules. Pursuit bars get most people the first time, people set them too long.
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Old 01-19-16, 12:14 PM
  #3048  
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@Dalai Thanks!

Originally Posted by Dalai View Post
Really depends on which bike you will be riding the key sessions on? You said your trainer has power, if using this primarily for your intervals you will ideally want to ride the bike with the PM a few times to see how close the trainer is to the PM which I would expect to be more accurate.

Normally if only having one PM, I'd suggest the road bike if that is your primary interval bike. I have SRM's on most of my bikes. Of all the bikes the least beneficial is on the CX bike, closely followed by the track bike as I do most of my key interval work outs on the road bike. On the track the one real benefit I've found it having data from my Pursuits to review and plan my training accordingly.
Given my local undulating terrain, I find it difficult to have a regimented/planned training program. Normally, it's either climb hard or climb harder, which isn't always a lot of fun for a big guy. So the intervals on the trainer seemingly would be the best route to go.

Originally Posted by Dalai View Post
Since you plan on using the trainer once you can confirm its accuracy then a Track PM could be a good thing. Not sure about the Rotor Track SRM, but be aware the SRM crankarmed Track cranks were not waterproof. Worth noting if you wanted to use outdoors in inclement weather. You can though actually change the crank arms if you want to have different lengths. My older cranks have the bolts accessible from the front and I did buy a set of 175mm arms with the intention to swap from the 170mm arms for pursuits. Since I've read a number of studies, but mostly couldn't be bothered so have stuck with the 170's for pursuiting and bunch races.
Again, I'm an old dog learning new tricks, so I guess I'm willing to give one length of arm for both events a try.

Originally Posted by Dalai View Post
Another better valued track crank (not sure if waterproof) is the Power2Max units. Only downside IMO with the P2Max unit is you can't do a static calibration like an SRM to confirm the slope value is correct. This may not be an issue for you but I am disappointed this cannot be done otherwise they have been around a while now and I haven't heard of many issues since they started producing V2.
I do like the pricing of Power2Max option. Is calibration an issue with these crankset-type PMs? More specifically, if you have calibratable unit, does it need much calibration?
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Old 01-19-16, 12:18 PM
  #3049  
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Originally Posted by gtrob View Post
Ontario races under a UCI license, so enforces UCI rules for track. Before each race you have to check in at bike check, they sometimes weigh the bike, they ALWAYS check the saddle and bars in a jig (takes about 30 seconds). Zero tolerance, Ive had to adjust a 3.2deg seat before, and push back a seat that was 2mm too far. Also a rollout for Jrs as they have gear restrictions.

almost all pass for mass start and sprint rules. Pursuit bars get most people the first time, people set them too long.
Has anyone tried a short seats to meet compliance? Are there any rules against them?
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Old 01-19-16, 12:25 PM
  #3050  
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Originally Posted by dunderhi View Post
Has anyone tried a short seats to meet compliance? Are there any rules against them?
I have used a Specialized TTS (way too soft for my linking; very comfortable, but kind of unstable), and use a Fizik Ares now (which I love).

No rules against 'em that I know of (or that were enforced at events running UCI rules!).

I like the Ares because it feels very similar to the Antares, which I had been using prior, but it just has a shorter nose. it also looks normal. but tiny.
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