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Old 01-22-16, 11:24 AM
  #3076  
weavie
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Let's say I'm looking to run an 88 gear in. Is there any objective reason to use 49/15 instead of 46/14 or does it come down to personal preference?
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Old 01-22-16, 11:42 AM
  #3077  
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Originally Posted by weavie View Post
Let's say I'm looking to run an 88 gear in. Is there any objective reason to use 49/15 instead of 46/14 or does it come down to personal preference?
I'll let someone else go over the theoretical differences in drivetrain efficiency and how some people can feel a difference between nominally equivalent gearing. I use 49/15 for a nominal 88 inches because I often run 49/14, so it saves me a chainring (I don't own a 46) and keeps the chain lengths closer.
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Old 01-22-16, 12:25 PM
  #3078  
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I hear you, that's part of how this came up. There's definitely an efficiency of stuff.
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Old 01-22-16, 01:37 PM
  #3079  
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46x14 was my go to gear for a couple of seasons. I'd switch out the chain ring if I wanted a bigger gear.

I've heard that the smaller cogs aren't as efficient, but never noticed any difference.

Paul
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Old 01-22-16, 01:43 PM
  #3080  
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Originally Posted by weavie View Post
Let's say I'm looking to run an 88 gear in. Is there any objective reason to use 49/15 instead of 46/14 or does it come down to personal preference?
It comes down to:

- Personal preference
- Chain issues


Most people can't feel the difference between small/small or large/large chainring combinations to make gears. Everyone experiences the issues that come with chainring/cog combinations taking or giving too much chain.

Eventually, you'll settle on a system whereby you won't have to change chains when you change gears. A lot of it is trial and error. But, I think both options above will keep the wheel on the dropouts...depending on your dropouts.

When you start using a 13t (i.e. 45/13) cog in the mix, you really run into issues with having too much chain.
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Old 01-22-16, 01:59 PM
  #3081  
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Originally Posted by gycho77 View Post
Craigslist tips
-Never tell your email address(they will send you a fake invoice)
-Only accept paypal
-Check your paypal account when you receive the money
These are bad tips.

It's trivial for a person to chargeback a paypal transaction for any reason, even personal transfers. Hacked paypal accounts are also extremely inexpensive and can be used to purchase something as the refund process will always favor the lost account holder and not the person selling an item. Finally, how does one transfer paypal to an account without getting/giving an email address?

Craiglist should only be used with cash, a counterfeit testing pen and a well-lit public area.
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Old 01-22-16, 03:01 PM
  #3082  
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Originally Posted by 1incpa View Post
I've heard that the smaller cogs aren't as efficient, but never noticed any difference.
there's all sorts of bro science about large/large combinations versus small/small combinations, and the rational part of my brain wants to reject it all. people talk about spinning up more weight with a larger chainring... bah! nonsense. people talk about chain angles and friction - but the chain still goes all the way around a cog no matter how big it is... nothing really seems to actually make sense.

except i have this one gear combo that just feels bigger than its actual roll-out, and i hate it. i feel like i can't modulate it or roll it properly. i don't know why it feels so wack. but it does.

so i don't know what to believe.
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Old 01-22-16, 03:26 PM
  #3083  
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Originally Posted by queerpunk View Post
there's all sorts of bro science about large/large combinations versus small/small combinations, and the rational part of my brain wants to reject it all. people talk about spinning up more weight with a larger chainring... bah! nonsense. people talk about chain angles and friction - but the chain still goes all the way around a cog no matter how big it is... nothing really seems to actually make sense.

except i have this one gear combo that just feels bigger than its actual roll-out, and i hate it. i feel like i can't modulate it or roll it properly. i don't know why it feels so wack. but it does.

so i don't know what to believe.
This touches on a key point.

Weavie, it's a fact that some people can feel the difference between small/small and big/big gear combinations that make the same gear. Some gears that are technically bigger will feel smaller on the legs.

It's up to debate why this happens. There are a lot of theories. Nay-sayers focus on the theories and poke holes in them to debunk the phenomena the people experience. This doesn't change the fact that those experiences exist.

The first time I experienced it was during my first year of racing. I was used to riding a 50/15 (90" / 7m) for race gears by that time early in the season. Then I bought a 14t and put on a 48/14 (92.6" / 7.2m) and did my first efforts on it. It felt so light that I came off the track mad thinking that I had forgotten to change the 15t out for the 14t. 48/14 (92.6") felt like a significantly smaller gear than 50/15 (90"). Not the same...smaller. I had no idea why, but that's what I felt.

I experienced such with other combos, like 45/13 (93.5") vs 52/15 (93.6"), as well. I *really* liked 45/13. The difference was night and day to me. Can't explain it. It just was. What sucked about running 45/13 was that because the combo used both a small chainring and a small cog, they didn't use up much chain and the wheel would extend off of the dropout, so I had to use a short chain (1 less link than my normal chain) in order to use that combo. This made using that gear a pain in the butt.
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Old 01-22-16, 03:36 PM
  #3084  
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i wonder if we'd be able to tell the difference if we did it doubleblind.
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Old 01-22-16, 03:42 PM
  #3085  
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Originally Posted by queerpunk View Post
i wonder if we'd be able to tell the difference if we did it doubleblind.
Anna Meares' mechanic couldn't

Story Time:

Back in like 2009 or 2010, Anna Meares was in the World Championship 500M. As the story goes, she was scheduled to ride a 45/13 (from my bad memory of the story). So, the mechanic preps her bike, they hook up her bike in the start gate. She mounts it. 5...4...3...2...1...Go! Wooooosh! NEW WORLD RECORD!

After all of the festivities, the mechanic starts to break down the bike and notices his goof. He put on a 46t instead of the prescribed 45t chainring. Good thing she won (and set a world record)!
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Old 01-22-16, 07:57 PM
  #3086  
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Granted this is all stemming from infield babble between intervals, but, my feeling is that I can do more jumps faster with a smaller chain ring.

I couldn't say if over a long period of time I would get more or less fatigue with either set up. My guess is it's about power (or lack of) and muscle makeup and some combinations just end up feeling more right than others.
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Old 01-22-16, 09:11 PM
  #3087  
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Originally Posted by weavie View Post
Granted this is all stemming from infield babble between intervals, but, my feeling is that I can do more jumps faster with a smaller chain ring.

I couldn't say if over a long period of time I would get more or less fatigue with either set up. My guess is it's about power (or lack of) and muscle makeup and some combinations just end up feeling more right than others.
Allegedly, the smaller chainrings accelerate quicker than their larger brethren. I'm couldn't tell you if that's total bunk or not, but in my limited experience, that seems to have some truth. I feel snappier on a 49/14 than on a 52/16, even though it's a much larger gear. Consequently in a race two weeks ago, I was driving a group with a 52t, and found a rhythm really easily and it stuck there quite well. It's likely placebo, but eh, whatever. Experiment and see what you like!
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Old 01-23-16, 03:14 PM
  #3088  
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I'm starting over equipment wise so debating this too. The only measurable difference I can think of is chain speed (always going to be faster on a bigger ring for same rpm). Doesn't seem like moving 400g 10% faster would be a significant thing.
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Old 01-23-16, 06:16 PM
  #3089  
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So what are all of the factors?

1. The linear speed of the chain speed
2. The amount each link must rotate
3. Aerodynamic drag
4. The flywheel effect
5. Total weight
6. What else?


IMHO, since the highly unusual 63-19 and 40-12 are equivalent options to the popular 47-14 & 50-15, that maybe the sweet spot lies in that 14-15t cog range and that significant differences might only be felt at the extremes.
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Old 01-24-16, 11:52 AM
  #3090  
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What is the reason most track cranks use 144 BCD ?

Last edited by markwesti; 01-24-16 at 12:00 PM.
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Old 01-24-16, 12:16 PM
  #3091  
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Originally Posted by markwesti View Post
What is the reason most track cranks use 144 BCD ?
back in the day, ALL cranks were 144 bcd - track and road.

and then road changed because they wanted to accommodate smaller chainrings.

track never needed to do that.

and since it's not like track stuff really gets wholesale upgrades (ie, there's a new dura-ace groupset every three years, but nothing similar for track gear), sold in high volumes, nor do the demands of the equipment really ever change - then, well, there's no need to change.

and why would anybody change? every good chainring is 144bcd. why would somebody try to elbow a minority piece of equipment that's incompatible with absolutely everything else worth using?
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Old 01-24-16, 12:36 PM
  #3092  
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Originally Posted by dunderhi View Post
So what are all of the factors?

1. The linear speed of the chain speed
2. The amount each link must rotate
3. Aerodynamic drag
4. The flywheel effect
5. Total weight
6. What else?
Placebo effect. Sorry, but it's real.

I guess it's also possible that, if you're using the same chain length, the difference in effective chainstay length and therefore wheelbase and weight distribution could change the way the bike feels.
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Old 01-24-16, 01:25 PM
  #3093  
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Thanks , Mr. punk . Hey while I have you on the screen , what do you think about this crankset ? I mean for entry level practice only .

https://www.planet-x-usa.com/i/q/CSS...-2000-crankset
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Old 01-24-16, 03:52 PM
  #3094  
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It'll be just fine.
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Old 01-26-16, 10:49 AM
  #3095  
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Originally Posted by Hida Yanra View Post
as do I- they are fantastic - Specialized used to make a TT version of the Phenom w/ the same shape, but a bunch more padding on the nose - it looks similar but visibly different - I switched to that one after the races started getting long, and I was doing them on on shorter tracks - YMMV, but if you ever run into that issue, the Phenom Gel is worth a look. link to one

Sorta thought you might be headed to Ontario- I'd love to hear a report on the track and the facilities up there? I don't know much about that track.
Track and facility are really nice, had some really fast and hard racing that was tons of fun. The only tracks I've ridden are cleveland and indy, but it's easier to ride than either of those. Super smooth surface and transitions I pretty much only noticed when I would accelerate a little coming down hill out of the turn.

Things that are a bit less than ideal are lack of on track warm up time at all, and a high barrier to entry for out of town people to get on the track/do weeknight races outside of the oca track cups. My impression is the driver for those is whatever insurance arrangement the track/city has, and it seems like there's already more demand than available track time, so I'm not sure how much you can criticize there. If the local demand is already more than the track can easily accommodate it's kind of hard to argue that a big effort should go into making it easier for out of town guys.
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Old 01-26-16, 11:41 AM
  #3096  
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Originally Posted by wens View Post
Track and facility are really nice, had some really fast and hard racing that was tons of fun.
sounds awesome - glad you got to go check it out!
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Old 01-26-16, 12:27 PM
  #3097  
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Originally Posted by Hida Yanra View Post
sounds awesome - glad you got to go check it out!
Now I just need to find a way to check out Burnaby, because I heard cool things about it.

And all the other tracks. I have a vision of re-writing the Pokémon theme song to got to ride them all.
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Old 01-26-16, 09:16 PM
  #3098  
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What about FCV? That's in your neck of the woods.
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Old 01-26-16, 10:32 PM
  #3099  
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@wens, you must have been the other american I kept seeing on the big board from time to time. I was hoping to find you and introduce myself at some point.

Speaking of the racing this weekend, I was given a hard time by the officials doing bike check because of the UCI minimum handlebar distance rule, of all things. In UCI jargon, the handlebars have to sit within an area bounded "at the rear by the axis of the steerer tube (D)". Since my tk1 has a bayonet fork, they were measuring it as somewhere on the bayonet part in front of the headtube, but I had to explain to them that it should be through the center of the headtube. We came to a settlement that I would rotate my bars forward a touch. It still amazes me that you can have your bike checked X amount of times and come back with just as many different interpretations of the rules.
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Old 01-27-16, 07:08 AM
  #3100  
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I think one of two Americans not from new York. Gotta say UCI rules are a pain. I think it would be easier if they applied to all the us racing because shops would be used to checking bikes, but I can't imagine the value in telling a brand new racer their bike is too light or such.

I heard someone say bike check was more involved than usual because they're trying to train more people or some such, but I have no idea if that's wild rumor or truth.
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