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Old 02-22-16, 01:14 PM
  #3276  
gycho77
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Originally Posted by Hida Yanra View Post
For maybe the first or second time in my life, I'm at odds w/ Carleton - and it feels weird.

While the geo on the Specialized isn't "sprinter geo", those Langsters get used on every track I've been to. Burnaby 200m? Tons of em.
They get raced on the Kuipke, get raced everywhere and they do fine and win races.

They are a good deal for the price (usually), the new ones have long dropouts that I haven't seen any wear on.... you know, I can't name anything wrong with them at all, other than "the geo is traditional track geo" -
Those bikes can go fast, they can Madison, they can move up and down track on steep tracks with no problems I've ever seen..... dunno.
IMO, no reason not to buy one.
I think Carleton prefer steep head tube andgle because of handling
You could find more geometry information in the link
Urban Velo #3 - Bicycle Culture on the Skids
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Old 02-22-16, 01:15 PM
  #3277  
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Originally Posted by Hida Yanra View Post
While the geo on the Specialized isn't "sprinter geo", those Langsters get used on every track I've been to. Burnaby 200m? Tons of em.
They get raced on the Kuipke, get raced everywhere and they do fine and win races.

They are a good deal for the price (usually), the new ones have long dropouts that I haven't seen any wear on.... you know, I can't name anything wrong with them at all, other than "the geo is traditional track geo" -
Those bikes can go fast, they can Madison, they can move up and down track on steep tracks with no problems I've ever seen..... dunno.
IMO, no reason not to buy one.
+1

Sprint geometry has its benefits - especially over 65kph
Enduro geometry, or dual-purpose mass start/pursuit geometry also has its benefits. Especially around 55kph.
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Old 02-22-16, 01:23 PM
  #3278  
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Originally Posted by gycho77 View Post
I think Carleton prefer steep head tube andgle because of handling
You could find more geometry information in the link
Urban Velo #3 - Bicycle Culture on the Skids
Don W is a boss - his bikes are amazing and he's a brain.
but until you are diving down a bank at +60kph, the geo of the Langster Pro is great for mass start / pursuit racing.
And if you are along the black line or coming over the top of an exchange at 55kph, the Langster is great.

For sprinters, yeah, geo makes a difference.
How much that matters for enduros? I'd say not much at all.
For the vast majority of track racers? Not so much - I mean, look at the guys on the Leader team winning P/1 races in LA..... the langster isn't "traditional track geo" - that's a fact, and it's just fine for the vast majority of us.
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Old 02-22-16, 01:54 PM
  #3279  
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I used to ride a Felt TK2, which has traditional sprint geometry, and I actually hated how it responded sometimes. I wouldn't really be able to describe it - it's been a few years - but while I liked the nimbleness of a steep headtube there was something else I didn't like.

When I replaced the TK2 with a Langster Pro, the LP's 73deg headtube and 45mm fork struck me as "not right" - even though the trail measurement winds up being a totally reasonable number, like 56 or 57 IIRC. I did some poking around looking for a 35 or 40mm fork to use on it. And then I rode it, and I realized that I did not need to buy a different fork for it. I've done pursuits, team pursuits, keirins, very fast mass start races, dove down 43deg bankings on it, finally got my flying 200 into the elevens, and the bike does what I need it to do.
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Old 02-22-16, 03:42 PM
  #3280  
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Remember the post that started this:

Originally Posted by Banchad View Post
Through sponsorship on my university cycling team I've been offered a Specialized Langster Pro frameset for 30% off. I assume from the good aluminium is better than poor carbon saying it will be better than the Planet X I currently have now? Would it be worth the upgrade?
Cost of racing the Planet X: $0
Cost of switching to the Specialized: MSRP - 30%

Would it be worth the upgrade?
No

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Old 02-22-16, 08:14 PM
  #3281  
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Originally Posted by queerpunk View Post
The Langster Pro is a decent bike, even considering the fact that it doesn't have sprint geometry.
Originally Posted by Hida Yanra View Post
.... you know, I can't name anything wrong with them at all, other than "the geo is traditional track geo" - Those bikes can go fast, they can Madison, they can move up and down track on steep tracks with no problems I've ever seen..... dunno.
Originally Posted by queerpunk View Post
I used to ride a Felt TK2, which has traditional sprint geometry, and I actually hated how it responded sometimes. I wouldn't really be able to describe it - it's been a few years - but while I liked the nimbleness of a steep headtube there was something else I didn't like.

When I replaced the TK2 with a Langster Pro, the LP's 73deg headtube and 45mm fork struck me as "not right" - even though the trail measurement winds up being a totally reasonable number, like 56 or 57 IIRC.
I really believe that a lot of geometry has probably been pretty well refined by trial and error over the last century or so, but there's also a lot of recycled "wisdom" out there for which there's no clear basis. Unfortunately, there's also often no agreement about what falls into either category. Moreover, "optimal" depends on use case.

This is relevant to a project Colby Pearce and I are undertaking. We've been frustrated by the handling of certain frames and the relative dearth of definitive information on what works best for track. So, we're going to build a number of frames, for which we'll vary the geometry in a controlled fashion, set them up identically, and then go ride test and race them. Full disclosure, this is a commercial endeavor, but as an additional output I hope to be able to answer some of these questions in a data-based way soon.
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Old 02-22-16, 08:28 PM
  #3282  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
Remember the post that started this:
now on that point - generally agree.
A bunch (eg, more than 3) early gen PlanetX track bikes at Marymoor just got "mushy" - noticible flex in the way they rode after a few years. No one had any good explaination for it- even the Boeing carbon guys out there - but it wasn't imaginary either. The later ones didn't seem to have that problem, but the conversation reminds me of it.

Yeah- unless medals and fancy-shirts are in the balance, |a currently functional track bike > a bike that isn't free|
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Old 02-22-16, 08:30 PM
  #3283  
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Originally Posted by Koogar View Post
This is relevant to a project

Well hello there!
Can we get an introduction, or any further details?

So many questions:
I assume steel- as it is the easiest/fastest material to work with on a "one-off" basis?
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Old 02-22-16, 08:51 PM
  #3284  
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Originally Posted by Hida Yanra View Post
now on that point - generally agree.
A bunch (eg, more than 3) early gen PlanetX track bikes at Marymoor just got "mushy" - noticible flex in the way they rode after a few years. No one had any good explaination for it- even the Boeing carbon guys out there - but it wasn't imaginary either. The later ones didn't seem to have that problem, but the conversation reminds me of it.

Yeah- unless medals and fancy-shirts are in the balance, |a currently functional track bike > a bike that isn't free|
Hmm, I had a boss who did military carbon fiber stuff and talked about delamination causing stiffness to drop over time. Probably not usually a problem for bikes though, since you're usually designing to stiffness rather than stress.
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Old 02-22-16, 09:13 PM
  #3285  
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Originally Posted by wens View Post
Hmm, I had a boss who did military carbon fiber stuff and talked about delamination causing stiffness to drop over time. Probably not usually a problem for bikes though, since you're usually designing to stiffness rather than stress.
yup - and given a normal sort of layup sched+epoxy distribution, it wouldn't make sense for the frames to be experiencing the drop in stiffness about 2 years after manufacture.
Especially given that they are track bikes used on an outdoor track, that's just not a meaningful number of cycles to start talking about flex-based delam of materials.
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Old 02-22-16, 09:50 PM
  #3286  
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Originally Posted by Hida Yanra View Post
Well hello there!
Can we get an introduction, or any further details?

So many questions:
I assume steel- as it is the easiest/fastest material to work with on a "one-off" basis?

Sure, happy to share to the extent I can do so based on the early R&D stage and the forum rules related to commercial advertising. Colby and I have known each other for a few years and we share a frustration with the available frame offerings out there - he from the perspective of a coach and fitter, I as a rider. We also realized that we were thinking along the same lines as to how we'd do stock frame sizing differently to fit more people and their event-specific needs, and what traditional wisdom about geometry we want to test.

Both the prototypes and production frames will be 7000 series aluminum. I've got tube sets on order for the first five prototypes and am having a custom dropout designed. The website isn't up yet, but when it is, there will be a lot more detail on the design philosophy, geo and sizing, and Colby's thoughts on fitting a track bike. The company is Fifty Point One Racing.
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Old 02-22-16, 10:22 PM
  #3287  
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Originally Posted by wens View Post
Hmm, I had a boss who did military carbon fiber stuff and talked about delamination causing stiffness to drop over time. Probably not usually a problem for bikes though, since you're usually designing to stiffness rather than stress.
I worked in aerospace which built a lot of carbon epoxy structures, some needing to last for decades in high stress, and often high stiffness, applications. All were fabricated and cured using an autoclave (high pressure and temperature). Some delamination was found during inspection and those parts either repaired or scrapped. Never experienced delamination in service.

I do not know the process used for bike frames so they may not be as sophisticated as those used for aircraft parts. Some epoxies absorb moisture so that might be a reason for the bikes becoming "mushy". I also wonder if sunlight can cause deterioration in carbon frames.
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Old 02-23-16, 07:12 AM
  #3288  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
A key indicator is muscle fiber type. Generally, your muscle fiber type percentages does not change over time. So if you were predisposed to being an endurance athlete as a kid, you'll likely be the same as an adult. Same for sprinters.

High school athletics are a good testing ground for muscle fiber time because most schools have the students doing all kinds of sports that involve everything from short bursts of speed (100M dash) to long events (1 mile run). And the sample sizes are relatively large (LOTS of kids in the school doing the same things), so if you are above average in something there, this is good.

If you were in fair shape, your performance, likes, and dislikes of these events will lend a valuable clues to your muscle fiber type percentage. In layman's terms: TALENT

So...

If you were a "sprinter" in high school track and field or were above average in sports that use fast-twitch muscles or lots of power, then you will probably lean towards being better at sprint events because you have a higher percentage of "fast twitch" muscles.

If you were an "long distance" runner in high school track and field (events 1 mile /1,600m or longer) then you will likely be better at endurance events because you have a higher percentage of fatigue-resistance "slow twitch" muscles.

If you were best at "middle distance" events like the 800M or you didn't particularly excel in sprint or long events, then you may be an all-around racer or simply above-average across the board.
.
Haha and if you did nothing? I literally did no competitive sports from aged 11- when i picked up a bike again at 21. Good thing is, I never really put on any weight in that time, so I guess I'm more at the ectomorph end of the scale. That being said, now I'm eating healthy and going to the gym, I'm putting on lean muscle, especially in the legs.

I guess the only way to know is to go try all the events I can! I think the kilo can be a good one though.

There's plenty of scope in my track league. Actually- there's 2 which are both around an hours drive away. One tends to do more endurance races, and the other has sprint events too, so I can mix and match or alternate between a sprint week and an endurance week
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Old 02-23-16, 07:33 AM
  #3289  
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Why do we use gear-inches developed instead of gear ratio?
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Old 02-23-16, 07:56 AM
  #3290  
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Originally Posted by Banchad View Post
Why do we use gear-inches developed instead of gear ratio?

IIRC, it's just inches and it goes back to high wheel bikes where each rotation of the pedals produced X numbers of inches of travel. High wheel bikes had many different wheel diameters, so inches of travel was a good way to compare.


Here's the starting grid for a local high wheel race. Greg Lemond is the 4th rider from the front.
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Old 02-23-16, 07:57 AM
  #3291  
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Originally Posted by Banchad View Post
Why do we use gear-inches developed instead of gear ratio?
Because it sounds way more awesome to say "ninety eight" than "forty eight thirteen". Helps weed out the roadies.

But for real, I think it stems from the early Penny Farthing-style bikes: the pedals were directly connected to the front wheel, so the "inches developed" was just the diameter of the front wheel. The manly men racing those bikes would compare dic er. . . wheel sizes in inches developed. It stuck.

TC
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Old 02-23-16, 10:18 AM
  #3292  
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Originally Posted by Trackliche View Post
Because it sounds way more awesome to say "ninety eight" than "forty eight thirteen". Helps weed out the roadies.

But for real, I think it stems from the early Penny Farthing-style bikes: the pedals were directly connected to the front wheel, so the "inches developed" was just the diameter of the front wheel. The manly men racing those bikes would compare dic er. . . wheel sizes in inches developed. It stuck.

TC

Your memory is better than mine, I think it was the wheel diameter.
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Old 02-23-16, 10:48 AM
  #3293  
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Thanks for clearing that up for me guys. I was always confused as I'm only relatively new to bikes and I've only ever had to deal with 700c wheels and couldn't understand as to why literal ratios (52/16=3.25, 48/15= 3.87) weren't used as a measure of gear magnitude.
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Old 02-23-16, 11:21 AM
  #3294  
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Originally Posted by Banchad View Post
Thanks for clearing that up for me guys. I was always confused as I'm only relatively new to bikes and I've only ever had to deal with 700c wheels and couldn't understand as to why literal ratios (52/16=3.25, 48/15= 3.87) weren't used as a measure of gear magnitude.
Carleton likes to do 650's
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Old 02-23-16, 11:32 AM
  #3295  
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Originally Posted by Koogar View Post
Sure, happy to share to the extent I can do so based on the early R&D stage and the forum rules related to commercial advertising. Colby and I have known each other for a few years and we share a frustration with the available frame offerings out there - he from the perspective of a coach and fitter, I as a rider. We also realized that we were thinking along the same lines as to how we'd do stock frame sizing differently to fit more people and their event-specific needs, and what traditional wisdom about geometry we want to test.

Both the prototypes and production frames will be 7000 series aluminum. I've got tube sets on order for the first five prototypes and am having a custom dropout designed. The website isn't up yet, but when it is, there will be a lot more detail on the design philosophy, geo and sizing, and Colby's thoughts on fitting a track bike. The company is Fifty Point One Racing.
thanks for sharing this info! when you're ready, i'd love to hear even more and more - some of the specific sizing and geo things you're testing, what the test protocol is, and what you find. whatever isn't proprietary/close-to-the-chest info.
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Old 02-23-16, 12:16 PM
  #3296  
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Originally Posted by queerpunk View Post
thanks for sharing this info! when you're ready, i'd love to hear even more and more - some of the specific sizing and geo things you're testing, what the test protocol is, and what you find. whatever isn't proprietary/close-to-the-chest info.
Sure, we'll be very transparent about what we're working on, as the whole project is meant to be frame designs driven by elite athlete / coach / fitter feeback and real world testing. So sharing our findings is part of substantiating our design choices. Both of us feel that it isn't worth putting another frame into the market unless it addresses the shortcomings of the stuff already out there and works better for riders' needs - we're creating a brand because we want great track frames, not making track frames to fill out a brand's offerings.

I'm currently spending the most time on getting a custom dropout designed and manufactured to test on the prototypes, and working to set up frame production in the US. As we start prototype testing, we plan to post the latest to the website. That, however, has taken a backseat to getting the prototypes made.

If there are questions or asks for the product, I'm happy to take them here!
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Old 02-23-16, 12:50 PM
  #3297  
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Originally Posted by MrMinty View Post
Haha and if you did nothing?
...
I guess the only way to know is to go try all the events I can! I think the kilo can be a good one though.
Yes, you'll have to race them all and see what suits you.
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Old 02-23-16, 12:50 PM
  #3298  
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Originally Posted by tonski View Post
Carleton likes to do 650's
There's an app for that
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Old 02-23-16, 01:32 PM
  #3299  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
There's an app for that
Is it out already? What's the name?
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Old 02-25-16, 03:05 PM
  #3300  
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I have a question about what I think is called "pulling a wheel".

I'm new to track, and am on a cheap "Pure Fix" track frame that I know is hardly good enough for the track, but I do have friends who race this frame in Cat 3 on the track and do fine. I do however have good components (Sram omnium, ultegra pedals, paul hubs, etc). Yesterday was my first time doing standing start sprints, and on the first go, when I put out my max power the drive side of the rear axle slipped and the wheel jammed in to the seat stays and I screeched to a stop. I thought perhaps I just didn't tighten the axle nut enough, so I realigned/tensioned the wheel and then cranked down the nut as hard as I reasonable could. Next go, I got about 100m into the sprint and then the same thing happened. I luckily was able to keep upright, but am now very hesitant to ride this bike again, as the thought of this happening again is always on my mind. I was told that chain tensioners would remedy this problem, but am still not sure if I possibly just have a POS bike. My main question is, can I rest easy if I install chain tensioners? Or could this be a wheel/frame problem?
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