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Old 01-20-17, 02:34 PM
  #3951  
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BTW, when I say that the 500M is "easy", I mean easy conceptually. Just like the Dead Lift is "easy". Get the bar off of the ground.

Everyone who can ride a fixed gear can do a 500M time trial. To excel at a simple event is very difficult.
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Old 01-23-17, 06:01 PM
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I know there was a bit of a buzz around it when Stages first came out, but have any of you guys used the GXP compatible road crank arm on ther sram omnium crankset? If so, are you using pedal spacers on the driveside arm to correct for q factor differences?

I've decided to make the leap and begin training with power, but with serious training occurring on three of my bikes, one powermeter that is compatible with all of them is really appealing.
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Old 01-23-17, 09:26 PM
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Originally Posted by theblackbullet
I know there was a bit of a buzz around it when Stages first came out, but have any of you guys used the GXP compatible road crank arm on ther sram omnium crankset? If so, are you using pedal spacers on the driveside arm to correct for q factor differences?

I've decided to make the leap and begin training with power, but with serious training occurring on three of my bikes, one powermeter that is compatible with all of them is really appealing.
I've been using the Rival Stages meter for a while with an Omnium crank. It works really well, and I have no complaints about it. Fair warning, I'm a Stages fan. I'm getting a fourth PM from them soon.

I'm not nearly picky enough to shim, or space the pedals for Q factor. I haven't noticed the Q factor at all. That said, I am really close to THE WORST about nitpicky details like that.
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Old 01-24-17, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by JimiMimni
I've been using the Rival Stages meter for a while with an Omnium crank. It works really well, and I have no complaints about it.
Does the road Stages handle negative torque? I thought it didn't but after a quick search can't find it referenced...
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Old 01-24-17, 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Dalai
Does the road Stages handle negative torque? I thought it didn't but after a quick search can't find it referenced...
No, the road PMs don't handle negative torque. They just read zero watts. For me, that's not an issue, in fact I think it becomes easier to see the end of efforts.

Apparently, though, if you rotate the PM 180 degrees on the crank arm, it WILL read negative torque values.
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Old 01-26-17, 12:23 AM
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Originally Posted by carleton
You aren't looking for absolute max rpm. There is a sweet spot of RPM and Torque where power is maximized. It's around 120-135 RPM. Over 140 is too much.

Max speed is directly related to your 500M time. Higher max speed, faster 500M time. So you don't have to do a full 500M to see how your progress is coming.

If your max speeds are not progressing, then you may need to change your program or you are maxed out.
Thanks.
I just found out that my posture was wrong when I was sprinting.
So my max speed in 55x12 gearing increased by 5km/h
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Old 01-26-17, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by theblackbullet
I know there was a bit of a buzz around it when Stages first came out, but have any of you guys used the GXP compatible road crank arm on ther sram omnium crankset? If so, are you using pedal spacers on the driveside arm to correct for q factor differences?

I've decided to make the leap and begin training with power, but with serious training occurring on three of my bikes, one powermeter that is compatible with all of them is really appealing.
Erin uses one - with no spacers or nuthin'. It's worked fine for him.
I have a track DA stages, and that works fine.
I also had a handful of road units, and twice I had frequent issues with signal drop-out - to the point where it wasn't a power meter, it was just an occasional random number generator. I complained and Stages would send me a new unit. Something to keep in mind.
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Old 01-26-17, 04:08 PM
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So I haven't really experienced this in other sports, I guess the closest I've come is Tabata sessions, but does anyone else throw up after intense efforts, particularly VO2 max or neuromuscular work?

Did my first Kilo training sessions today - 4 reps with about 20 minutes break between them and clocked my PB at 1:06. Immediately got off the bike to throw up after crossing the line. Is it just my body not used to digging that deep and having difficulty processing lactate? Do you develop a tolerance for it, or should I just make sure there's a bin nearby at whatever track I'm riding on?
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Old 01-26-17, 04:18 PM
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I'd say if you vomit after a kilo, you're doing it right. A lot of people can't figure out how to get their body to go that deep. Their self-preservation instincts kick in, for better or for worse.
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Old 01-26-17, 06:02 PM
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There is a reason it's known as the Killermeter
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Old 01-26-17, 06:28 PM
  #3961  
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Originally Posted by SyntaxMonstr
Did my first Kilo training sessions today - 4 reps with about 20 minutes break between them and clocked my PB at 1:06. Immediately got off the bike to throw up after crossing the line. Is it just my body not used to digging that deep and having difficulty processing lactate? Do you develop a tolerance for it, or should I just make sure there's a bin nearby at whatever track I'm riding on?
That sounds about right.

4 reps with about 20 minutes break between them
Jesus, that's overkill. I'd guess that 2 of those efforts were "junk" for training as your body was probably tapped-out by that point.

You don't train for The Kilo by doing Kilos. It will be highly unpleasant and you won't get as fast as you would if you used other training programs. One could be on a programmed designed around the Kilo and only do a handful all year...including State/Regionals and Nationals.

The general idea is to train the Kilo's components individually then bring them all together on race day. Sorta like this:



You can do "1 kilometer efforts". Those aren't "Kilos". To differentiate:

A "1 kilometer effort" is an effort that spans 1KM, kinda like a "rolling 1K" where you do a steady-state effort that starts from the boards with a rolling start. The assignment might be to "Maintain X mph the entire time. Then next time do X+2 mph the entire time..." in blocks.

A "Kilo" is an all-out, give it all you got, maximal effort from a standing start where you leave it all on the track. These are very hard. Some may say, "I can do those all day!", that pretty much means that they aren't going maximal. The body can't do these all day. The key is "maximal".
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Old 01-26-17, 07:53 PM
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Originally Posted by SyntaxMonstr
So I haven't really experienced this in other sports, I guess the closest I've come is Tabata sessions, but does anyone else throw up after intense efforts, particularly VO2 max or neuromuscular work?

Did my first Kilo training sessions today - 4 reps with about 20 minutes break between them and clocked my PB at 1:06. Immediately got off the bike to throw up after crossing the line. Is it just my body not used to digging that deep and having difficulty processing lactate? Do you develop a tolerance for it, or should I just make sure there's a bin nearby at whatever track I'm riding on?
Throwing up is not that uncommon -- especially in the early season. A PB of 1:06 is very impressive -- even if it were from a rolling start. 4 x 1km is a tough workout.
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Old 01-26-17, 11:03 PM
  #3963  
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Originally Posted by tobukog
Throwing up is not that uncommon -- especially in the early season. A PB of 1:06 is very impressive -- even if it were from a rolling start.
Yeah, I agree. 1:06 for a first-timer is really good. I think that's fast enough to make the podium at US Elite Nationals.

Originally Posted by tobukog
4 x 1km is a tough workout.
I guess it all depends on how much you put into it. Let's say you were working on pacing, your line, or position on the bike, you can do rolling 1KM steady-state effort at the same lighter pace that you would do a 4K effort and it wouldn't hurt that much.

It's the standing start that makes the Kilo hurt so much.
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Old 01-27-17, 12:49 AM
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The timing for the kilo (approximately 1 minute), is sort of a No-Mans Land for training. If you trained doing just Kilos, you would probably not make much progress, except maybe for your standing start if you were at least fresh for your reps.

The Kilo bridges 3 different energy systems in one maximal effort. It's very confusing for the body to adapt and repair itself with this type of effort. It literally doesn't know what to do with itself after being subject to that sort of effort. Typically what ends up happening is the Aerobic system ends up making most of the adaptations because that is the system that the body finishes the effort with, it's the system that is still being taxed after the effort is over, and therefore the one that leaves the largest "imprint" on the body's nervous system. The problem is that the aerobic system is the one that recovers the easiest, and so this "false imprint" influences how you recover the most.

A decent Kilo program will have at least 3 Kilo specific workouts in it's cycle. Standing 125m starts, Rolling 500m (come down the banking to get up to race speed before the line), and 15s ON/15s REST for 3-5 minutes/set intervals would be a decent sample Kilo program.
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Old 01-27-17, 05:33 AM
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Originally Posted by SyntaxMonstr
Did my first Kilo training sessions today - 4 reps with about 20 minutes break between them and clocked my PB at 1:06. Immediately got off the bike to throw up after crossing the line. Is it just my body not used to digging that deep and having difficulty processing lactate? Do you develop a tolerance for it, or should I just make sure there's a bin nearby at whatever track I'm riding on?
As someone who attends the Manchester National Cycling Centre on a regular basis (strict beginner) it is not uncommon to see the Team GB sprinters with their heads in a bin.
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Old 01-27-17, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by WaltersCardigan
As someone who attends the Manchester National Cycling Centre on a regular basis (strict beginner) it is not uncommon to see the Team GB sprinters with their heads in a bin.
If you are a rider who vomits please be kind to the Velodrome staff and clean up any mess you make and wash out bins.

If you do this on a regular basis buy a pack of hospital type disposable and sealable vomit bags such as these:
https://www.amazon.com/Disposable-Vo...tal+vomit+bags
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Old 01-27-17, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by queerpunk
Erin uses one - with no spacers or nuthin'. It's worked fine for him.
I have a track DA stages, and that works fine.
I also had a handful of road units, and twice I had frequent issues with signal drop-out - to the point where it wasn't a power meter, it was just an occasional random number generator. I complained and Stages would send me a new unit. Something to keep in mind.
yeahhhhhh, I've gotten that from a few people. It seems that either it works great, or that it's a nightmare for people. Outside of pedal units, I haven't found another solution near as versatile for my use. With my buy in cost, I've decided it's worth the risk.
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Old 01-27-17, 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by theblackbullet
yeahhhhhh, I've gotten that from a few people. It seems that either it works great, or that it's a nightmare for people. Outside of pedal units, I haven't found another solution near as versatile for my use. With my buy in cost, I've decided it's worth the risk.
I dunno man. What might power give you over a head unit that tracks speed, cadence, and HR over time? If you are doing pursuits, your HR is maybe, what, 10s behind what your legs are doing? And with stages, you are only gonna get the info from 1 leg
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Old 01-27-17, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by carleton
I dunno man. What might power give you over a head unit that tracks speed, cadence, and HR over time? If you are doing pursuits, your HR is maybe, what, 10s behind what your legs are doing? And with stages, you are only gonna get the info from 1 leg
What are good choices for head units that track speed, cadence and heart rate over time? I'm not interested in a power meter but am interested in a better choice to collect this information and look at it after training.
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Old 01-28-17, 03:10 AM
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Originally Posted by carleton

Jesus, that's overkill. I'd guess that 2 of those efforts were "junk" for training as your body was probably tapped-out by that point.

You can do "1 kilometer efforts". Those aren't "Kilos". To differentiate:

A "1 kilometer effort" is an effort that spans 1KM, kinda like a "rolling 1K" where you do a steady-state effort that starts from the boards with a rolling start. The assignment might be to "Maintain X mph the entire time. Then next time do X+2 mph the entire time..." in blocks.

A "Kilo" is an all-out, give it all you got, maximal effort from a standing start where you leave it all on the track. These are very hard. Some may say, "I can do those all day!", that pretty much means that they aren't going maximal. The body can't do these all day. The key is "maximal".
My first and last efforts were Kilo's. I came out of the blocks wayyy too hard on the first attempt and blew up by the third lap (333m track). I could have gotten off my bike and moonwalked faster. Think I posted a 1:40 or something, haha. The next 2 were rolling efforts where I tried to hold 58 kph, and then I ended on another kilo with a standing start but tried to pace it better - that's the one I threw up on and clocked a 1:06, but in the spirit of full disclosure, the guy holding my bike gave me a push so that's probably not a fair time.

I'm still working my way through Up Up Up and the few other guides available on track sprinting, so I'll refrain from asking noob questions until I've read them but all but one thing I couldn't find an answer to was pacing. Does the concept of negative splits apply to the kilo as well or are you trying to keep the same pace throughout the effort?

Originally Posted by carleton
Yeah, I agree. 1:06 for a first-timer is really good. I think that's fast enough to make the podium at US Elite Nationals.
Is that Masters or just general Elite? I thought the qualifying time for Glasgow 2014 was 1:04. Also, is there any quantifiable data on how much of a difference indoor v outdoor (wood v cement) tracks make on time? Is it similar to equipment where tri-spokes/discs save X amount of time/power all things being equal?

Thanks again for the advice. It's much appreciated.

Last edited by SyntaxMonstr; 01-28-17 at 03:27 AM.
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Old 01-28-17, 03:14 AM
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Originally Posted by taras0000
The timing for the kilo (approximately 1 minute), is sort of a No-Mans Land for training. If you trained doing just Kilos, you would probably not make much progress, except maybe for your standing start if you were at least fresh for your reps.

The Kilo bridges 3 different energy systems in one maximal effort. It's very confusing for the body to adapt and repair itself with this type of effort. It literally doesn't know what to do with itself after being subject to that sort of effort. Typically what ends up happening is the Aerobic system ends up making most of the adaptations because that is the system that the body finishes the effort with, it's the system that is still being taxed after the effort is over, and therefore the one that leaves the largest "imprint" on the body's nervous system. The problem is that the aerobic system is the one that recovers the easiest, and so this "false imprint" influences how you recover the most.

A decent Kilo program will have at least 3 Kilo specific workouts in it's cycle. Standing 125m starts, Rolling 500m (come down the banking to get up to race speed before the line), and 15s ON/15s REST for 3-5 minutes/set intervals would be a decent sample Kilo program.
This is super helpful and preempts the next few questions I had, thanks so much!
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Old 01-28-17, 04:00 AM
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1:06 on a first try is smokin' fast, pretty much no matter who you are.
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Old 01-28-17, 06:28 AM
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Originally Posted by SyntaxMonstr
...then I ended on another kilo with a standing start but tried to pace it better - that's the one I threw up on and clocked a 1:06, but in the spirit of full disclosure, the guy holding my bike gave me a push so that's probably not a fair time.
If you had a push, you can't brag about your "1:06". Starting from 0MPH and getting up to max speed takes a lot of energy. The standing start is what usually tanks new pursuiters as they expend too much energy and can never recover.

Going from a reasonable 1:40 on your first effort to a blazing 1:06 on your 4th sounds dubious. I could have happened, but newbies are notorious for reporting abnormally fast times when they first start training. Either by doing something wrong like getting a push or starting at the wrong location on the track or by having the stopwatch person not do a good job at timing.

You are gonna have to do it again for yourself. And maybe record video of it so you can time it yourself later on the computer.

I'm not trying to take the wind out of your sail as people do exist who can ride a 1:06 on the first few days on the track...but it's highly unlikely.

What's worse is if you become known as "the guy who rode a 1:06 during his first kilo" and never live up to the hype later because the 1:06 didn't really happen like you thought it did.


Originally Posted by SyntaxMonstr
Is that Masters or just general Elite? I thought the qualifying time for Glasgow 2014 was 1:04. Also, is there any quantifiable data on how much of a difference indoor v outdoor (wood v cement) tracks make on time? Is it similar to equipment where tri-spokes/discs save X amount of time/power all things being equal?

Thanks again for the advice. It's much appreciated.
"Juniors" = Ages 10(?) - 17. Racing is age-grouped in 2 year increments.
"Elites" = Ages 18+ (these are the fastest.)
"Masters" = Ages 35+ (or 40+, depending on your location). Racing is age-grouped in generally 5 year increments (40-44, 45-49, etc..)


"Masters" sounds like it's the top level like in the Masters Golf Tournament, but it really means the old guys.


Don't worry yourself trying to calculate what your time will be with aero equipment, wooden track, indoors, etc... The math just isn't there. You might set yourself up for disappointment. You can try. I did...A LOT. TRUST ME. As Baby Puke said, "You can't Kilo with a slide rule." There are simply too many variables...the biggest one is on top of the saddle.
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Old 01-28-17, 06:31 AM
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Originally Posted by taras0000
the timing for the kilo (approximately 1 minute), is sort of a no-mans land for training. If you trained doing just kilos, you would probably not make much progress, except maybe for your standing start if you were at least fresh for your reps.

The kilo bridges 3 different energy systems in one maximal effort. It's very confusing for the body to adapt and repair itself with this type of effort. It literally doesn't know what to do with itself after being subject to that sort of effort. Typically what ends up happening is the aerobic system ends up making most of the adaptations because that is the system that the body finishes the effort with, it's the system that is still being taxed after the effort is over, and therefore the one that leaves the largest "imprint" on the body's nervous system. The problem is that the aerobic system is the one that recovers the easiest, and so this "false imprint" influences how you recover the most.

A decent kilo program will have at least 3 kilo specific workouts in it's cycle. Standing 125m starts, rolling 500m (come down the banking to get up to race speed before the line), and 15s on/15s rest for 3-5 minutes/set intervals would be a decent sample kilo program.
+1
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Old 01-28-17, 06:37 AM
  #3975  
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Originally Posted by TDinBristol
What are good choices for head units that track speed, cadence and heart rate over time? I'm not interested in a power meter but am interested in a better choice to collect this information and look at it after training.
I'm not familiar with current offerings these days. I loved the SRM PowerControl VII head unit which did all of the above (you don't need SRM cranks to use it). The best part is that it sampled every 1/2 second which is good for getting lots of data points during short efforts.

I also used a Garmin 500. But, it only sampled every second. It was OK. Be sure to get dedicated separate speed and cadence sensors. Never use GPS for speed data. It's OK for long road rides, but garbage for track work. Riding in circles confuses the satellite and/or head unit and your head unit will think you are teleporting from one part of the track to the next...in a straight line and not account for the fact that you rode quickly around a curve resulting in slower recorded speeds.
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