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Old 08-16-17, 09:53 PM
  #4251  
bitingduck
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
Good point.

Since you commented, do you think that she should hop into a P/1/2/3 race now after taking a beginner's class?
I've essentially let women do exactly that (there was one fewer category at the time) after giving someone a 35 minute intro talk and watching them ride solo for 20 laps. I have no idea who she is, but some local and USAC people certainly are comfortable with her upgrade- the local track association tends to get polled about these things and IIRC, to jump to 2 you need a recommendation from an elite coach, as well.
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Old 08-16-17, 10:03 PM
  #4252  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
You know, because no one else in that first race knows anything about how she races the track either.
Anybody in a P/1/2 race will have evaluated her within a couple laps, if not earlier (part of why VSC race day accelerated class puts new riders on the track for 20 laps right before racing starts) and be able to figure out her experience and basic racing style pretty quickly (assuming they don't already know her anyway).

I really expect that she'll be just fine and will end up racing in fields where she'll be able to learn track skills the fastest.
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Old 08-16-17, 10:04 PM
  #4253  
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My 2c worth is that it certainly doesn't depend on what category they come from. I rode road a lot and must say I feel very safe around MOST of the high ranked road riders I've had the experience of riding with. Riding tight pacelines at high speeds on road sure as hell teaches you a thing or 2 about being a confident bike handler. I don't know about where everyone else rides, but where I ride, if you can't cut the mustard or your riding is a bit sketchy, then you are politely (and not so politely if the hint doesn't sink in) told to go sit on the back or leave all together. I know road and track riders with a lot of experience that I certainly don't like to rub shoulders with. I know a certain old masters rider that purposely rides sketchy to make riders feel they have to go high around him (I've trained with the guy and he can ride as straight as anyone).

I also know a former world champ masters woman who literally freaks out from time to time in bunch scenarios, but has held records and WCs in individual disciplines and national titles in bunch racing. She has the idea that if she stays in front she can't get taken out. Not a bad philosophy if you're strong enough to do it
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Old 08-17-17, 03:44 AM
  #4254  
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Originally Posted by brawlo View Post
She has the idea that if she stays in front she can't get taken out. Not a bad philosophy if you're strong enough to do it
That's the only way I've been able to feel at ease while racing in Pakistan, on both the road and track.
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Old 08-17-17, 08:55 AM
  #4255  
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A safe rider on the track is a safe rider and I'll leave it up to Kyle Knott and the staff at Rock Hill to make sure that she's fine and gets enough practice to race the appropriate races. Honestly, some of the fastest riders do some pretty sketchy stuff -- I was watching the Nationals stream and a ex-National Champ got a warning for dangerous riding in a sprint. The announcer then came back on telling everyone it doesn't mean that he's dangerous or it was intentional. Whatever, I've seen him chop and hook enough to know that I really don't want to be near him.

One thing to understand is that every track has it's own protocol, and it always amuses me that riders often think that the local protocol is what's followed everywhere else and that it's THE PROTOCOL. I've seen tracks where all the warm up is done at the Stayers line. I've seen some where the majority is done in the sprinters lane with only the slowest traffic up above. I've seen some where exits are on both straights. I've seen some only on turn 3. I've seen some where you get yelled at for passing in front of the Judges stand in the infield. I've seen some where you MUST pass in front of the judges stand to get on the track. I've been in places where you MUST announce if you are swinging off the front.

I think it's important to provide good firm instruction and rules of the track, but it is a little bothersome when the local track boss puffs out his chest and pretends that his rules are the only correct rules of track racing.
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Old 08-19-17, 05:41 AM
  #4256  
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I was practicing standing starts last night. I was working in a large parking lot near my house with a slight incline. I didn't have a holder, so I was working off track standing.

Anyway, I noticed when I did them that I tended to hold my breath as I got going. I tend to do it when lifting hard too, but it seemed like a bad idea to be doing that when starting a Kilo - no reason to put me into a minor oxygen deficit. I started to work on just making sure I was breathing during the effort, which was an interesting challenge.

Any of you have that issue?
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Old 08-19-17, 04:10 PM
  #4257  
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I think holding your breath for the first couple strokes in a kilo is normal, you're essentially deadlifting.
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Old 08-19-17, 05:22 PM
  #4258  
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Yeah from a lifting technique point of view the hold of the breath is actively encouraged for power production, I would guess this would be similar for the first few revolutions to pull away.
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Old 08-19-17, 11:27 PM
  #4259  
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I do the same thing on my standing starts (holding my breath), others at the track kept telling me to breathe. To me it's just what comes naturally. I really don't think lack of oxygen is limiting me in any way, so I'm not too worried about it.
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Old 08-20-17, 07:30 AM
  #4260  
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Is oxygen uptake a typical limiter in kilo efforts?
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Old 08-20-17, 01:09 PM
  #4261  
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Are you asking because you think you'll be doing Kilos? Women race the 500m, where oxygen isn't really a problem unless you're going over 40 seconds. In the Kilo, it is a problem. The timing of a Kilo falls into a "no-mans land" of energy systems suitability.

You've got about 40-45 seconds of glycogen stored in your muscles and bloodstream for use in a one shot deal. The 500m falls into this timeline. The true production of aerobic energy starts at around the 1 minute mark, and this is regardless of who you are because it depends on the prduction and accumulation of lactic acid to begin. These are all relative times. The faster/more explosive you are, the shorter these times become (for the CP and Glycogen times, by about 2-5 seconds). For about 15 seconds in the Kilo, you're behind the 8-ball when it comes to producing energy. It's why guys typically drop anchor at the 750m mark, and slowly but surely start to nosedive on speed before leveling that out going into turn 3.

So it depends on what you mean about O2 uptake. It does limit Kilo performance, but it is physically impossible for anyone to take in enough Oxygen during the effort to replenish the energy used. The aerobic system just can't produce energy that quickly. The only way you can extend your Glycolitic energy window is by holding back a little in that first lap. You might gain a second or 3 at the tail end of the window, limiting your time in "no-mans land". That's how Enduros to Kilos and get pretty close in time to the specialists. The Kilo guys are even starting to blunt their starts a bit with good results.
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Old 08-20-17, 06:15 PM
  #4262  
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I'm asking because if oxygen uptake isn't a limiter, then holding one's breath for the start wouldn't be an issue...so the point becomes moot.

Yes, I know women do the 500m. That's not what I'm talking about.

ETA: I may be new to the track, but I'm not new to cycling or physiology.
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Old 08-20-17, 08:12 PM
  #4263  
carleton
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There are 3 general ways to ride a kilo:

- Start as hard as you can then push as hard as you can until you cross the finish line.
- Start as hard as you can, then "float" for some distance and recover from the start, then push hard as you can to the end.
- Start moderately (as a pursuit start) then negative-split each lap and ramp up the intensity.

Pick one based on your strengths and weaknesses.

southernfox, the kilo is compared to the 800m foot race in terms of intensity and "lactic acid burn".

Beginners do them every week at local tracks. Maybe try one in drop bars and you'll experience what we are talking about. As the saying goes, "Only fools and madmen specialize in the Kilo."
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Old 08-20-17, 11:40 PM
  #4264  
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There is a breathing pattern that is used for standing starts. It doesn't differ from event to event, but pursuiters will breathe more often.

Initially on a standing start, you will exhale on the bottom part of the first downstroke. You will inhale on the upstroke, and exhale the same way on the next downstroke. You use the valsalva at the top of the downstroke to generate the internal pressure that stabilizes your core/torso to create the torque needed to have an explosive downstroke. After the second or third downstroke, the riders may continue with exhaling on the left downstroke, or go every couple/few pedal strokes. The transition will vary for each cyclist depending on how they are geared, or how they are choosing to ride the Kilo (all out vs. float). Once a cyclist goes off of exhaling every left pedal stroke, it will be a rhythmic thing (not necessarily coinciding with left/right pedal stroke). It's still tied to pedal strokes, but only because the valsalva/exhale will coincide with the torque-iest part of the downstroke, regardless of side.

Breathing is important because holding your breath too much will impede you later on. You'll see riders loading up on a few deep breaths just before the start of the Kilo.
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Old 08-21-17, 06:53 AM
  #4265  
southernfox
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I need an emergency set of spare wheels for training/training races. ...and I need them by early Wed.

Would either of these be workable?

https://www.amazon.com/Vuelta-ZeroLi...eel&th=1&psc=1

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...KIKX0DER&psc=1
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Old 08-21-17, 07:03 AM
  #4266  
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Where are you located? Personally, I would not choose either of those sets. I have a set of Mavic Ellipse sitting around that I can ship to you and you can send back at your convenience. You can keep them for awhile (within reason, maybe a couple of months) to give you a chance to research better options. I'm not worried about you breaking them, if you do, so be it, I'll get over it....they are just a spare, spare set laying around. May even consider selling them to you for a good price if you fall in love with them.
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Old 08-21-17, 07:14 AM
  #4267  
southernfox
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I'm in Charleston SC. Really? That would be really really sweet of you.
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Old 08-21-17, 07:19 AM
  #4268  
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No problem, my sister lives in N Charleston area....so I can send her after you if decide to keep my wheels and not send them back or pay for them It should take 2 days with UPS, so you should have them tomorrow afternoon, probably around $35-40 to ship.
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Old 08-21-17, 07:21 AM
  #4269  
southernfox
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Originally Posted by Divebrian View Post
No problem, my sister lives in N Charleston area....so I can send her after you if decide to keep my wheels and not send them back or pay for them It should take 2 days with UPS, so you should have them tomorrow afternoon, probably around $35-40 to ship.
PM sent. Thanks so much!!
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Old 08-21-17, 07:56 AM
  #4270  
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Originally Posted by Divebrian View Post
No problem, my sister lives in N Charleston area....so I can send her after you if decide to keep my wheels and not send them back or pay for them It should take 2 days with UPS, so you should have them tomorrow afternoon, probably around $35-40 to ship.
System won't let me PM until a cooldown period: answer to your question is 'YES'
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Old 08-21-17, 08:10 AM
  #4271  
southernfox
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Originally Posted by Divebrian View Post
No problem, my sister lives in N Charleston area....so I can send her after you if decide to keep my wheels and not send them back or pay for them It should take 2 days with UPS, so you should have them tomorrow afternoon, probably around $35-40 to ship.
(Sorry y'all...time sensitive work-around)

Brian, if you pm me your number I can text you mine. System won't let me PM for another ~30min.
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Old 08-21-17, 08:14 AM
  #4272  
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Won't let me send you another PM for 60 minutes, I'll PM you then, I won't be leaving the house until then anyways and I live 5 minutes from the FedEx drop off.
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Old 08-21-17, 08:15 AM
  #4273  
topflightpro
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I know a guy who uses those Vueltas. They're like $90 at Performance or Nashbar - Vuelta Zerolite Track Wheelset
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Old 08-21-17, 11:14 PM
  #4274  
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I picked up a black set and a white set of these during their holiday sale last year for $50/pair. They are now $70. They aren't racing wheels, but with 36 spokes and tall profile rims, they do carry my massive amounts of excess poundage well.

FREE SHIP 48 STATES* Vuelta PRO V Fixie Track Bicycle Wheelsets PROMO SALE Super Fast Aero Rim Fixie Track Wheels with Smoothest Precision Bearing Hubs Available in New Custom Rim Colors
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Old 08-22-17, 11:13 PM
  #4275  
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Small, random and not quite track related. Trying to find a certain American frame maker but cannot remember the name.
Notable points were they made aluminium race bikes, I think had an Italian sounding name. They offered their frames in two kinds of geometry, even numbers (54,56,58) were reasonably standard and odds (55,57,59) were longer and lower. Also tended to be quite fluro and usually two colours with a fade.
If that jigs anyone's memory help would be appreciated
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