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Old 09-20-17, 01:11 PM
  #4401  
JuiceWillis
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
For competitive track racing, comfort should be a lower priority.

As the length of the event shortens, the importance of aerodynamics goes up and the importance of comfort goes down.


I asked and got the "breathe better" answer lol. No real explanation and I never had trouble breathing anyways, 38cm bars FTW?
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Old 09-20-17, 02:18 PM
  #4402  
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Originally Posted by JuiceWillis View Post
I asked and got the "breathe better" answer lol. No real explanation and I never had trouble breathing anyways, 38cm bars FTW?
I'm not saying the following applies to your coach or not, but there are a lot of coaches that rely on old "tried and true" programs...that actually work...for beginners. This is because for many beginners, doing anything regularly will produce gains.

A beginner in their first season could be on a program from a top-tier coach or the Merckx "Race Lots" program and show the exact same progress. When the racer starts to plateau is when advanced techniques come into play.

BUT, a beginner can take advantage of modern equipment/tools IMMEDIATELY.

Old School: Thousands of Base Miles
New School: Short rides with intensity, spin bikes, trainer rides, gym, cross-training, OR base miles etc... (all have been shown to work)

Old School: Wide Bars
New School: Narrow Bars

Old School: RPE (perceived exertion)
New School: Power Meters (actual exertion)


There are lots of examples of how the sport has progressed with equipment.
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Old 09-20-17, 06:17 PM
  #4403  
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Re: wrists in or out, my take on this is: Accelerating (especially standing)=wrists out for greater grip strength [see images of Hoy]; steady state or having reached top speed=wrists in for better aerodynamics [see images of Kenny near finish of a 200].
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Old 09-20-17, 06:35 PM
  #4404  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
I'm not saying the following applies to your coach or not, but there are a lot of coaches that rely on old "tried and true" programs...that actually work...for beginners. This is because for many beginners, doing anything regularly will produce gains.

A beginner in their first season could be on a program from a top-tier coach or the Merckx "Race Lots" program and show the exact same progress. When the racer starts to plateau is when advanced techniques come into play.

BUT, a beginner can take advantage of modern equipment/tools IMMEDIATELY.

Old School: Thousands of Base Miles
New School: Short rides with intensity, spin bikes, trainer rides, gym, cross-training, OR base miles etc... (all have been shown to work)

Old School: Wide Bars
New School: Narrow Bars

Old School: RPE (perceived exertion)
New School: Power Meters (actual exertion)


There are lots of examples of how the sport has progressed with equipment.
I agree 100% with you, just wanted to see if there was something I was missing. I gave up base miles 2 years ago, probably do 80% of my training either on the trainer, gym, or at the track. Intervals 2-3x a week with a recovery ride or off day in between. Gym itís leg presses, deadlifts, squats, push presses, etc. my road bike almost never sees the outdoors anymore and lives on the trainer.
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Old 09-21-17, 08:44 PM
  #4405  
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Originally Posted by 700wheel View Post
How about using a road bike with an 11-tooth cog.
I sold my road bike when I moved to LA from Delaware.
So that option is kinda hard for me.......
Also, I have 55t so it will be tougher than compact chainring with 11t
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Old 09-21-17, 10:25 PM
  #4406  
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Originally Posted by JuiceWillis View Post
I asked and got the "breathe better" answer lol. No real explanation and I never had trouble breathing anyways, 38cm bars FTW?
From what little research I've done it was the Italians in the 60s or so that started the wide bar trend. Tradition kept it going and we got the 'wide as your shoulders' and 'breathes better' explanations. Whilst I've yet to ask my bio-mech eng friends, apparently the actual shoulder joint itself doesn't vary too much between people. How far the humerus protrudes and musculature may be vastly different but a few thousand years of evolution has kept a couple key joints pretty constant.

For reference the c-c joint distance is roughly 37.5cm-39cm on average. I use 40cm on my road bike, currently going from 42 to 38 for mass starts, and have 34s on the way for sprints.
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Old 09-22-17, 12:48 PM
  #4407  
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Originally Posted by rensho3 View Post
Yes, I remember you! See you at worlds.

John
John, see you at Worlds!
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Old 09-22-17, 02:38 PM
  #4408  
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Suggestions for pedals?

I have 2 sets of Shimano PD-6700 pedals and I just managed to ruin one of them beyond repair (long story). These are pretty old and I'm wondering what would you folks suggest if I tried a modern offering from Shimano or LOOK.



I was gonna consider the LOOK KEO 2 MAX, but it's my understanding that LOOK may be phasing that out, too.

Looking for something that I can attach straps to somehow.

Suggestions?
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Old 09-22-17, 04:26 PM
  #4409  
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I know it's not on your list, but I really like my speedplays. Never had a problem with them.
And there are a couple of ways that I've seen to attach straps.
PI
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Old 09-22-17, 06:20 PM
  #4410  
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I'm still using SPD-R on the track. Eventually I'll have to change when I need new shoes...
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Old 09-22-17, 08:24 PM
  #4411  
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Originally Posted by 1incpa View Post
I know it's not on your list, but I really like my speedplays. Never had a problem with them.
And there are a couple of ways that I've seen to attach straps.
PI
I was on Speedplays (Zero and Zero Track Special) until a coach immediately put me on Shimano SPD-SL for the wider platform. The first day of standing starts and I immediately got what she was talking about. I've never considered Speedplay since.

Originally Posted by bitingduck View Post
I'm still using SPD-R on the track. Eventually I'll have to change when I need new shoes...
Those are like rare unicorns.
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Old 09-22-17, 08:25 PM
  #4412  
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I settled on Ultegra PD-R8000. Got them locally for what was probably close to cost.

We'll see how they work out.
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Old 09-22-17, 08:38 PM
  #4413  
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A few people over here are using the VP track pedals, which have a built in strap attachment point which actually makes sense. They'll be my choice when I finally move on from these DA 7400's.
VP-R73T
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Old 09-22-17, 10:53 PM
  #4414  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
I settled on Ultegra PD-R8000. Got them locally for what was probably close to cost.

We'll see how they work out.
Might need to modify them for straps, also I'd be interested to see how the new plate setup on those last
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Old 09-22-17, 11:02 PM
  #4415  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
Those are like rare unicorns.
I have about 5 sets of unicorns and about 12 pairs of cleats for them.
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Old 09-22-17, 11:03 PM
  #4416  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
Those are like rare unicorns.
I have about 5 sets of unicorns and about 12 pairs of cleats for them. I plan in getting custom shoes for when that time comes.
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Old 09-23-17, 12:04 AM
  #4417  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
Old School: Wide Bars
New School: Narrow Bars

I would think there are many factors that go into selecting bar widths - rider size, racing style, rider position, race types, track conditions, bike geometry, and so on, but since narrow bars are all the rage I have one question: How narrow is narrow enough before it becomes too narrow? If 40cm bars are better than 46cm bars and 34 is better than 40, then wouldn't 28 be better than 34 and 22 better than 28? I've asked the similar questions about tire widths in the past, since 23 is better than 21 and 25 is better than 23, but people start getting nervous about the advantages of 28mm tires and appears 30mm tires are just wrong for some reason. I ride high quality 30mm tires on a road bike and they feel pretty quick.

Does anyone have any data on the measured performance benefits of narrow bars? At the UCI races at Ttown this year, it still looked like 38 & 40's were the standard. I raced 38cm bars 35 years ago, so I'm not sure how old school is old school. Today, I prefer the feel and control I get from 40cm bars, but I also think comfort matters, so what do I know?
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Old 09-23-17, 12:12 AM
  #4418  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
I settled on Ultegra PD-R8000. Got them locally for what was probably close to cost.

We'll see how they work out.
I've been using the PD-R9000 for a couple years now. They can be strapped using zip ties. I use the limited float cleats(blue) on track and full float (yellow) on the road.
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Old 09-23-17, 12:28 AM
  #4419  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
Those are like rare unicorns.
I bought a bunch of them (mostly pretty cheap) when they were still floating around. I have a shoebox full of them,
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Old 09-23-17, 10:54 PM
  #4420  
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Originally Posted by dunderhi View Post
I would think there are many factors that go into selecting bar widths - rider size, racing style, rider position, race types, track conditions, bike geometry, and so on, but since narrow bars are all the rage I have one question: How narrow is narrow enough before it becomes too narrow? If 40cm bars are better than 46cm bars and 34 is better than 40, then wouldn't 28 be better than 34 and 22 better than 28?

Does anyone have any data on the measured performance benefits of narrow bars? At the UCI races at Ttown this year, it still looked like 38 & 40's were the standard. I raced 38cm bars 35 years ago, so I'm not sure how old school is old school. Today, I prefer the feel and control I get from 40cm bars, but I also think comfort matters, so what do I know?
All of those factors do count to a point, but for equal effort narrower should be faster. Riders focused on madisons, points, and scratch races will probably hover around the 38-40 mark however their positions are often not that far removed from an aggressive road bike. It should go without saying that you need to be in a more comfortable position for a 20km points race than you would for a keirin.

Because of the high speeds involved in sprint events aerodynamics become very important and the current evidence backed trends are showing much narrower bars with very little drop. I take it as the engineers are really trying to remove as much frontal area as possible. Sir Chris many years ago was said to have tried bars in the ~28cm region and I'm sure if you have enough control and confidence on the bike they should be faster. Wile I've not read this in full, there's plenty of info here on track aerodynamics:
https://ir.canterbury.ac.nz/bitstrea...s_fulltext.pdf

Most national sprint bikes have pretty narrow bars now too, and they're getting big olympic dollars to perform well
Avanti- 33cm, little drop
TeamGB- super secret
Look- 35cm
BT- 36cm (I've seen some secret bars that I'm assuming are their next evolution, never seen a logo or heard of a manufacturer, 33cm)
FES- practically no drop, unkown size
Dolan/Alpina- 33cm

Most are around the 33-35 so I'd imagine they've tested lower and maybe not found there to enough of an advantage
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Old 09-24-17, 09:52 AM
  #4421  
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Originally Posted by pierrej View Post
All of those factors do count to a point, but for equal effort narrower should be faster. Riders focused on madisons, points, and scratch races will probably hover around the 38-40 mark however their positions are often not that far removed from an aggressive road bike. It should go without saying that you need to be in a more comfortable position for a 20km points race than you would for a keirin.

...

Most are around the 33-35 so I'd imagine they've tested lower and maybe not found there to enough of an advantage

Thanks, I didn't realize that this is a sprint/keirin trend vice an enduro trend. The advice here seems to be applied to all races/racers at all skills levels. My concern as an enduro rider and now official is the diminishment of control with narrow bars, especially when one races on wavy concrete or asphalt surfaces. If we are only talking about national team sprinters at world class tracks, then they are certainly physically capable of racing in those positions safely.

I'm not a former Olympian or even a certified coach, but my first thought when I read JuiceWillis' advice from his coach was that Juice was a squirrelly rider (no offense) and he was prescribed wider bars to smooth him out. Unfortunately, his coach said it was for his breathing, which is a very old school thing to say, but it can possible still be true if Juice rides in a compact position with his elbows in his ribs. I admit, this isn't likely to be the case, but he's paying a coach and the coach is watching him race, so why not try what the coach says? If it doesn't work and the coach is stumped, then find a new coach.

Also, as a person with his own dissertation in the field of aerodynamics (helicopters), I appreciate additional reading material as Winter approaches.
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Old 09-24-17, 07:07 PM
  #4422  
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Originally Posted by dunderhi View Post
Thanks, I didn't realize that this is a sprint/keirin trend vice an enduro trend. The advice here seems to be applied to all races/racers at all skills levels. My concern as an enduro rider and now official is the diminishment of control with narrow bars, especially when one races on wavy concrete or asphalt surfaces. If we are only talking about national team sprinters at world class tracks, then they are certainly physically capable of racing in those positions safely.

Also, as a person with his own dissertation in the field of aerodynamics (helicopters), I appreciate additional reading material as Winter approaches.
It may vary from person to person, but after a few weeks worth of rides I've not found much difference in control going from 44s to 40s on my road bike, you get used to it like every small change over time.
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Old 09-24-17, 07:10 PM
  #4423  
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Originally Posted by pierrej View Post
TeamGB- super secret

Most are around the 33-35 so I'd imagine they've tested lower and maybe not found there to enough of an advantage
From memory I think it's posted somewhere in these forums somewhere that the GB 3d printed titanium bars were 26??cm wide

There's a heap of speculation around as to why the bars are getting narrower. The only sciency/physiological explanation I've seen is that the concept is to bring the hands on or closer to the plane between the shoulders and feet. That then reduces the sway of the bike.
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Old 09-24-17, 07:19 PM
  #4424  
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Originally Posted by brawlo View Post
From memory I think it's posted somewhere in these forums somewhere that the GB 3d printed titanium bars were 26??cm wide

There's a heap of speculation around as to why the bars are getting narrower. The only sciency/physiological explanation I've seen is that the concept is to bring the hands on or closer to the plane between the shoulders and feet. That then reduces the sway of the bike.
The pursuit base bars wouldn't be much more than that. You can kind of see the same trend at team Sky with the time trial base bars being printed and narrow.

Also found a pic of the bars without a name, a cross between the look/BT bars, scatto like reach/drop, 33cm and apparently the stiffest bars they've ever used.
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Old 09-24-17, 07:33 PM
  #4425  
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Found the linky Track Cycling Equipment | UK Sport

Titanium in 26cm, carbon in 28, 32 & 35cm
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