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Old 10-21-17, 08:56 AM
  #4551  
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LOL!

Mine stays in my car, all the time, along with some other "bike stuff". My car isn't big, either, but I manage to somehow fit stuff around it. You're right about traveling. Going to a race that I'd have to fly to (T-Town), I'd be lost without the wagon! I've got to buy a compactor or something.

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Old 10-22-17, 07:04 AM
  #4552  
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This might sound weird. I do a lot of my training on my road bike, including 'standing starts.' But I'm starting to worry about unclipping and would like toe straps...but then there's the issue of any emergency need to unclip. Obviously I wouldn't use them when just riding around (and I do most of my training on quiet residential roads).

Anyone explored these sorts of solutions?
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Old 10-22-17, 09:14 AM
  #4553  
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Originally Posted by southernfox View Post
This might sound weird. I do a lot of my training on my road bike, including 'standing starts.' But I'm starting to worry about unclipping and would like toe straps...but then there's the issue of any emergency need to unclip. Obviously I wouldn't use them when just riding around (and I do most of my training on quiet residential roads).

Anyone explored these sorts of solutions?
I don't use toe straps at all. I'm told I make a lot of power "for a woman", but I've never had an issue with popping out of a pedal, or even close to popping out. Of the masters women I saw at Worlds, very few used straps. I'm no expert, but it seems to me if you have good cleats and your pedals are adjusted properly and in good shape, you'd be fine without them. That said, it's a personal choice.

I do standing start practice on the road, too. I go out on to closed roads near where I live and practice. I either use my TT bike or my Venge. Both are close in fit and configuration my track bike, depending of course upon the kind of race I'm going to do. My coach showed me a trick where I can lean the back wheel of the bike against a post, or a bumper or something, and then countdown and go. I have a timer app on my phone that does all of the countdown tones. I start it at 50 seconds, set it on the ground, and then go through the drill! I also do very slow rolling starts, the idea there is to work on form.

But no, I don't use straps. I do see your concern with being able to clip out with them on, and that is very real!

Once again, I'm no expert, I just do what I've discovered works for me.
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Old 10-22-17, 10:22 AM
  #4554  
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I've done my share of standing starts on my road bike, and as long as the tension is set high in the pedals, the cleats were not worn and you're clipped in correctly, then you shouldn't be pulling out. Also the consequences of pulling out on a freewheel bike are low since you are most likely to pull out the rear foot rising on the first couple pedal strokes while going slow so your reaction will be just to stand on the forward clipped in foot as it reached the bottom of the pedal stroke and coast.

I started off on the old Look style pedals (Shimano PD-7401 were my favs) and converted both road and track to Speedplays 2 yrs ago. I'm more worried about pretzeling chain rings than pulling a foot on my road bike.

Although there are a number of riders who have a need for straps, I believe many use them for fashion. When the Intl Omnium included the kilo, few onmium riders used straps while pretty much all rider in the stand alone kilo did. And their times weren't that far apart. I've seen video of riders pulling their foot at the start of World Cup time trials even with straps. I think that the straps distracted the rider from making sure their foot was securely engaged in their clipless system but didn't prevent their foot from pulling out.

I know this won't be a popular opinion on this forum, but it is something worth thinking about.

Last edited by gl98115; 10-22-17 at 12:30 PM.
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Old 10-22-17, 12:19 PM
  #4555  
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i'm with you.

but i also think some people like the feel of the strap on their shoe (rather than being about strapping the foot to the pedal).
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Old 10-22-17, 03:31 PM
  #4556  
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Originally Posted by queerpunk View Post
i'm with you.

but i also think some people like the feel of the strap on their shoe (rather than being about strapping the foot to the pedal).
Bingo. This is why (I imagine) pursuiters use straps as well. They aren't laying down huge standing starts at the beginning of their efforts, but maybe they enjoy the more direct connection.

I really think that all styles of riders should try straps.

As I've mentioned before, it's very common for shoes to allow the foot to rise a few millimeters every upstroke. If our cranks or pedals flexed a few millimeters every stroke, we'd ditch them in a heartbeat. Yet we are accustomed to this in our shoes. Straps eliminate that.

This also helps any shoes feel like more expensive (rigid) shoes.

One last thing. Pedal exit tension is relative to the rider. A moderate setting for a big rider may render a smaller rider unable to escape! So, comparing pedal exit tension can't be done by looking at the pedals. One must also consider the rider's size and strength. So, we can't just say, "Set your pedals to min/medium/max tension..." as it is a relative setting.

I can exit vertically out of Shimano pedals set on max setting during a standing start but a 150lb rider couldn't even twist out of them on the middle setting.
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Old 10-22-17, 03:37 PM
  #4557  
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...and I really do think that there are significant wattage gains for pursuiters using straps. I've spotted both male and female pursuiters using them at the highest level.

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Old 10-22-17, 04:29 PM
  #4558  
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I actually think a lot is about tradition. A pursuiter is going to most likely be faster WITHOUT straps -- probably on the order of 2-8w. You'd think that the equipment choices of top level National teams are well thought out, but so much is about sponsorship or "how it's always been done". Look at the number of endurance riders using the IO even though it's probably not the fastest wheel. Sometimes you have to do it because everyone else does it...
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Old 10-22-17, 05:14 PM
  #4559  
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Are you saying there is a faster wheel than the IO? Other than a front disk which is not conducive to outside usage, I'm not aware of any other options.
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Old 10-22-17, 05:49 PM
  #4560  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
That's not too crazy being that the TK FRD (Felt has redone their lineup) is $4000USD.



That's interesting.

Do you know if they may them to order or have pre-made stock sizes?
Here's the reply I got from them when I reached out to them:

"Dear Hamza,

We have pleasure in offering you factory direct pricing, We distribute factory direct worldwide.

BT Edge Frame/ Fork/Seat post AUD$6,840*
*pricing excludes freight charges

Our BT Edge framesets range are available in 5 sizes Top Tube dimensions C-C (53CM) (55CM) (57CM) (59CM) (61CM)

BT Ultra Frame/Fork/Seat post AUD$7,580*
*Pricing excludes freight charges.

Our BT Ultra framesets range are available in 6 sizes Top Tube dimensions C-C (51CM) (53CM) (55CM) (57CM) (59CM) (61CM)

All our framesets are manufactured to order, Current delivery timing is 6-8 weeks from order confirmation with payment received.


Best Regards

STEVEN SANSONETTI
Ph +61 404 331 449 | Fax +61 3 9467 7781 | Mob 0404 331 449
admin@biketechnologies.com | www.biketechnologies.com"
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Old 10-22-17, 06:09 PM
  #4561  
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Originally Posted by Divebrian View Post
Are you saying there is a faster wheel than the IO? Other than a front disk which is not conducive to outside usage, I'm not aware of any other options.
Yes. The Zipp 808.

Have you noticed that 5-spokes are curiously missing from the road TT scene? Have you noticed that ALL high-end wheel manufacturers (who are in steep competition to make the fastest wheels) offer deep wheel options, but only a few make 5 spokes?

If the 5 spoke were faster, Mavic would simply put a brake track on the iO and sell it to TT nerds for $4,000 each and make money hand over fist. (Yes, I know that a few Mavic iOs have been spotted on road TT bikes. But it's not a consumer offering.)

Relevant thread on the topic. Some of the commenters are some very experienced "heavy hitters" in the bike world (read their signatures and google Andrew Coggan).

Triathletes spend more $ than any other cycling sector. They have no problem paying $3000-4000 for a wheel...IF it's actually faster.




Originally Posted by SyntaxMonstr View Post
Here's the reply I got from them when I reached out to them:
Thanks! That's some great info.

Last edited by carleton; 10-22-17 at 06:12 PM.
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Old 10-22-17, 07:15 PM
  #4562  
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Just curious as I have both the 808 (have a set for training/local races) and a disk/IO combination for big races. I always thought that both were very similar in aero properties in a head wind scenario with the 808 being more controllable in a cross wind for lighter riders. I thought in the sprinting world that the IO was preferred because of the stiffness. In my use, they both feel equally fast with the IO having the edge in the stiffness department.

Now, on the road, I can understand the spoked wheel being preferred as the construction of the IO would make it a harsh ride, plus you have varying winds, making the 808 a more versatile and well suited wheel for the road. Then again, I'm just a consumer that gets just enough information to form the opinion the marketing department wants me to have.....
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Old 10-22-17, 09:16 PM
  #4563  
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Originally Posted by Divebrian View Post
Just curious as I have both the 808 (have a set for training/local races) and a disk/IO combination for big races. I always thought that both were very similar in aero properties in a head wind scenario with the 808 being more controllable in a cross wind for lighter riders. I thought in the sprinting world that the IO was preferred because of the stiffness. In my use, they both feel equally fast with the IO having the edge in the stiffness department.

Now, on the road, I can understand the spoked wheel being preferred as the construction of the IO would make it a harsh ride, plus you have varying winds, making the 808 a more versatile and well suited wheel for the road. Then again, I'm just a consumer that gets just enough information to form the opinion the marketing department wants me to have.....
I think you are trying to mentally back into this.

I've owned both the 808 and IO (at the same time at one point) and I'm really big. The 808 didn't flex. The 1080 did...but not the 808. Plus, you can easily adjust the 808's characteristics by using different gauge spokes.

What's more is that, anecdotally, I did not experience any change in my TT times when I put on the IO. There wasn't even a placebo effect.

The biggest point being, no one has said it's more aerodynamic...not even Mavic. Here are their deep road offerings. Notice a familiar face?



I think they make the IO because people buy it.

What's more...the new IO looks remarkably like an old TT wheel that was tossed out for its un-aeroness years ago:




I dunno man, hahahaha

I'm waiting for the bombshell study to drop that undoubtedly proves what those industry guys found in their testing.

I know I'll never lust after an IO again. Not when I can get an 808 Track wheel for literally 1/4 the price.

Last edited by carleton; 10-22-17 at 10:02 PM.
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Old 10-23-17, 11:32 AM
  #4564  
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I am not that big of a guy, 5'5 and 158 lbs. I ride with a strap as insurance, not any fashion. I pulled out a left cleat years ago and added straps, and never had the problem again. Until at Master's Worlds in the team sprint 3/4 final. My right cleat released just past turn 1, but since I had the strap on, my foot stayed on the pedal instead of flying off and forcing me to pedal with one foot. I was able to just jam the cleat down and re-engage the pedal without problem. My second man did not see it happen, and you can't see it happen in the video. That strap saved our medal! When you can be safe, why be sorry?

I agree with Carleton's comment about just liking the feeling of being directly coupled to the pedal, thus eliminating the shoe flex from a hard start. I don't know if it saves any energy; I just like how it feels and it gives me more confidence.
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Old 10-23-17, 12:08 PM
  #4565  
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This year, I have broken two pairs of shoes trying to tighten them down so that my foot would not move. In both shoes, I had velcro straps, and I pulled them so tight that the metal loop bent, then snapped.

Fortunately they are custom shoes, so I was able to send them back to the maker to get them repaired.
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Old 10-23-17, 12:19 PM
  #4566  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
What's more...the new IO looks remarkably like an old TT wheel that was tossed out for its un-aeroness years ago:
I heard from elite sprinters that the new IO RIO is as stiff as the old version and is lighter that makes a way better handling especially for match sprinting. Same speed at the end. All of them say that since day one the new IO has feeling of a better wheel than the old one.

I have never ridden 808 however I don't believe it can be as stiff as 5-stroke wheel. It's faster though (same as HED GT3 which is not as stiff as iO). There is some data about it.
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Old 10-23-17, 12:24 PM
  #4567  
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Originally Posted by topflightpro View Post
This year, I have broken two pairs of shoes trying to tighten them down so that my foot would not move. In both shoes, I had velcro straps, and I pulled them so tight that the metal loop bent, then snapped.

Fortunately they are custom shoes, so I was able to send them back to the maker to get them repaired.
Look into affixing NJS straps to your pedals. Try singles first. Ask here if you need help figuring out how to put them on.

USE NJS not "fixie kid knockoff" straps. Seriously. You are paying for functionality and quality. All leather (or "pleather") straps are not made the same way. I personally prefer Toshi or Kashimax.

I know that nylon Velcro straps are all the rage now. But, in my opinion, they are not mature yet. Not like the NJS straps. I'm not trying to dis nylon Velcro. I just haven't personally used a set that's better than NJS straps.

The difference between Clipless Pedals and Clipless + Straps (NJS or Nylon) is like the difference between Platform Pedals and Clipless Pedals. There is a big, "OK...now I get it." sensation.
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Old 10-23-17, 12:27 PM
  #4568  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
One last thing. Pedal exit tension is relative to the rider. A moderate setting for a big rider may render a smaller rider unable to escape! So, comparing pedal exit tension can't be done by looking at the pedals. One must also consider the rider's size and strength. So, we can't just say, "Set your pedals to min/medium/max tension..." as it is a relative setting.

I can exit vertically out of Shimano pedals set on max setting during a standing start but a 150lb rider couldn't even twist out of them on the middle setting.
Hmmm? I don't use Shimano but for Look pedals you can set an exact amount of the exit tension. So there are real numbers in the game and nobody says like "min/mid/max/ but 10, 12, 16, 20Nm...
I personally ride with 16Nm exit tension. Once I had a crash on a race and my colleague lent me his pedals with max 12Nm tension. Well...it was not strong enough unfortunately and I unclicked unexpectedly very quickly, fortunately without crash but this stopped my race anyway.
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Old 10-23-17, 12:37 PM
  #4569  
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Originally Posted by bartek. View Post
I heard from elite sprinters that the new IO RIO is as stiff as the old version and is lighter that makes a way better handling especially for match sprinting. Same speed at the end. All of them say that since day one the new IO has feeling of a better wheel than the old one.

I have never ridden 808 however I don't believe it can be as stiff as 5-stroke wheel. It's faster though (same as HED GT3 which is not as stiff as iO). There is some data about it.
I've taken the liberty of highlighting all of the issues with your opinion of 808 vs IO

The 808 TRACK (not Road) has 20 214mm radial laced Sapim® CX-Ray bladed spokes laced to a high-flange rim. It's very stiff. It weighs 860g. The IO weighs 750g. So, it's only 110g heavier. BTW, the IO isn't lighter than before. It was 750 before the Rio edition.




So, yes, the only downside is +110g heavier. We are talking about a $4000USD wheel or a $1100USD wheel that weighs 110g more. That $2900 can go a long way to save 110g somewhere else. Or I can put the fork down for a sec and save 110g that way!
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Old 10-23-17, 12:45 PM
  #4570  
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Originally Posted by bartek. View Post
Hmmm? I don't use Shimano but for Look pedals you can set an exact amount of the exit tension...
Just stop right there

You can set the exit tension of Shimano SPD-SL pedals....with an allen wrench. No need for a new blade or set of pedals. The Shimano MAX (I said it) tension is much higher than LOOK.

I have used several Shimano and LOOK variants. I have 2 generations of Ultegra and LOOK KEO MAX BLADE 12 at home right now.

The tech was available on the Shimano "Lance" pedal in 2002.



A video from 2010:


Last edited by carleton; 10-23-17 at 12:49 PM.
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Old 10-23-17, 01:02 PM
  #4571  
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I don't think we should talk about money difference cause it doesn't matter to the raw data. Even if a gain is like 0.001% and money difference like $10000. It's up to the buyer if the gains is enough to justify a purchase.

Yeap, you are correct. The old and new iO weights the same. It was right after Rio games when I talked with our sprinters, my fault. Whatever makes the handling better it makes it. If not weight, so I guess something else.

Here is some facts anyway:
- There are faster wheels than Mavic iO
- They are however not as stiff as the iO
- When you say the stiffness is the same or the wheel doesn't flex it literally means that you don't feel a difference but it doesn't mean there is no difference
- You didn't notice any TT differences as for TT you don't really need stiffness as much as aero. In fact you should get better times for the 808, probably you didn't due to more flexy startpoint (even if you didn't notice). And for such short distance like 500/1/3km the difference in aerodynamic doesn't really matter as long as we don't talk about top 3 riders with differences in time about 0.001s. I guess you would have same time with your 1080
- Not many manufactures produce 5-spoke wheels as they are more likely track related and this means very small market
- For Triathlon scene use deep rims or 3-spoke wheels as they are more aero (means faster) than the 5-spokes that are stiffer. Stiffness is not the most desired thing for triathlons.
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Old 10-23-17, 01:15 PM
  #4572  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
Just stop right there

You can set the exit tension of Shimano SPD-SL pedals....with an allen wrench. No need for a new blade or set of pedals. The Shimano MAX (I said it) tension is much higher than LOOK.

I have used several Shimano and LOOK variants. I have 2 generations of Ultegra and LOOK KEO MAX BLADE 12 at home right now.

The tech was available on the Shimano "Lance" pedal in 2002.



A video from 2010:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLou_AD6hHw
I'm sorry but this video is not a specification talk but just marketing bullsh*t. Sure, you can change tension on varies Look pedals with wrench too. But this is limited to the 12Nm MAX. Then you can go with blades up to 20Nm. Show me the data of the Shimano exit tension. Cause the guy from the video make a talk like for newcomers to the bike industry

Look Blade 12 is 12. Shimano SPD-SL has some numbers for sure. I don't care about personal feelings. I do care about raw data. It's obvious that the MAX tension for your Shimano pedals could be bigger than for your Look as 12Nm for look is NOT the max. I'm suggesting you to talk about numbers not your feelings. You can't compare semi-pro Look product to the Shimano product with no information what the MAX tension is. It could be 16Nm which is NOTICEABLE higher tension than your Look. But then again it's not same as 20Nm for the Look. Numbers are numbers.

PS. It doesn't matter if Shimano or Look produce pedals with the highest tension. It matters that we talk/compare the same numbers.
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Old 10-23-17, 01:25 PM
  #4573  
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Bartek, you write about things of which you have no firsthand experience. Maybe you should wait until you have more experience before taking such a firm, unfounded, stance.

And, yes. There definitely is bull**** around here. I smell it, too
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Old 10-23-17, 01:27 PM
  #4574  
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The French squad have been with Mavic for as long as I can remember, but at the euros they were using Corima discs and 5 spokes. Faster or money talks?
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Old 10-23-17, 01:32 PM
  #4575  
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Originally Posted by Poppit View Post
The French squad have been with Mavic for as long as I can remember, but at the euros they were using Corima discs and 5 spokes. Faster or money talks?
When you see the team training on Mavic Ellipse, that’s a clue* that there may be a contractual obligation (read: $$ and/or free products are changing hands).

*Not proof. Just something to consider being that, given the option, most trackies seem to prefer tubular training wheels over clinchers.
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