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Old 10-23-17, 01:39 PM
  #4576  
Poppit
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Yes, we had a number of the young GB riders at our place training on black bikes with no names on them whatsoever, they were DF4s
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Old 10-23-17, 01:42 PM
  #4577  
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Can we just stop fighting about whether one is faster or stiffer and just agree, the IOs look really cool.
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Old 10-23-17, 01:45 PM
  #4578  
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Sorry. I deleted my post about “pay for ad stickers” as I couldn’t find supporting pics. But, I recall it happened. Maybe there was a conflict with Rolf who sponsored the Land Rover team which became Team USA.
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Old 10-23-17, 01:48 PM
  #4579  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
Bartek, you write about things of which you have no firsthand experience. Maybe you should wait until you have more experience before taking such a firm, unfounded, stance.

And, yes. There definitely is bull**** around here. I smell it, too
?? You don't need firsthand experience when you talk about absolute numbers. And absolute numbers are what matter at the end. All higher/lesser/min/max adjectives are just cheap talk. If you are ok with this, it's fine. But the talk is pointless then. There is a MAX value of tension for any clipless pedals (it can be fixed while using blades). There is the number for SPD-SL as well. As long as you don't provide this number your judgement is worthless, I'm sorry. It's nothing more than marketing/placebo feelings. I am engineer, I leave my feelings behind me when I work on numbers.
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Old 10-23-17, 01:51 PM
  #4580  
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Originally Posted by Poppit View Post
The French squad have been with Mavic for as long as I can remember, but at the euros they were using Corima discs and 5 spokes. Faster or money talks?
I wouldn't say that this is a point but you Look is in cooperation with Corima (see the Look website). Maybe this matters for any reason.
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Old 10-23-17, 02:01 PM
  #4581  
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In regards to stiffness:

We should note the difference between “Stiffer than...” and “Stiff enough for me”.

If you aren’t over 200lbs riding 40mph/65kph into 44 degree turns on a tight 250m track and this cumulatively CREATING enough force to flex a given wheel, then its stiff enough for you.

Same with cranks. If you can’t flex your budget cranks then you don’t *need* stiffer cranks.

That’s like never, ever driving over 85mph but *needing* a car that goes 200mph.

The bike industry thrives on making us think we need something that’s “stiffer”, “lighter”, or “faster”. When I worked in a bike shop, during training the owner told me that the key to selling high priced gear is to drop those three words during your description of the product and they will buy it.

He was right.
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Old 10-23-17, 02:09 PM
  #4582  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
The bike industry thrives on making us think we need something that’s “stiffer”, “lighter”, or “faster”. When I worked in a bike shop, during training the owner told me that the key to selling high priced gear is to drop those three words during your description of the product and they will buy it.

He was right.
It's funny you mention that. I was "working" at my local shop several years ago and trying to help someone with a bike purchase. I was giving them all the details and specs and intricacies of each model.

After they walked out, the manager said, don't bother with all that, just tell them the better one is faster.
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Old 10-23-17, 02:59 PM
  #4583  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
Wait. So, are you an engineer, software developer, or photojournalist?
I think your questions (this and others in other thread) are quite rude and shouldn't be done in public.

Does that exclude for any reasons? Software development is a part of software engineering. And yes, I have either engineer title and M.Sc.
Just for your further questions, I also got a special scholarship from president of state as a "new hope for country" or whatever they called it. And I missed only 0.01 point from my whole university career to receive a special money prize (big money) from our Ministry of Education. I also received 82 of 60 (sic!) points on my final physics graduation. I also have management skills and I was chef of IT departments and board advisor. Oh, and I am an security expert.
And for now, I mainly do consulting and training (both IT and managing) for companies such as Intel, IBM, Samsung, Motorola, Orange, Nokia among others. Oh, and of course almost all banks that exist in my country (including Citi Bank that I bet you know). And obviously some public institutions including European Parliament and military IT units.

So if your next question is if am I real, as you are based in Atlanta, I can gave you an address of one company with HQ based in your city that engineers flew from Atlanta to my country to meet me in person and got some advises from me. So you can make direct verification if needed.
Oh, and don't forget I am only 32 years old. I also visited about 50 countries, mainly due to my photojournalist work.

Any other questions? Or we can finally return to the track cycling topics?
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Old 10-23-17, 03:02 PM
  #4584  
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Ok, I actually have a question about the Track Cycling Stopwatch app @carleton. On the App Store screenshot I see the "Head to Head TT" feature. How to enable it?
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Old 10-23-17, 03:33 PM
  #4585  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
Fortunately, it's my problem :-)
I presented you some proofs recently. You can drive to Norcross, GA 30092 to get more direct proofs. Fair enough. But I am not going to answer any more questions regarding my personal life, at least on public messageboard.

Originally Posted by carleton View Post
Thanks for pointing that out. It's a feature that was deprecated in a recent release. I should remove the screenshot. I have to push an update to do so.
Oh no. Seriously? This was actually the main reason why I purchased your app. What was a reason to remove this? Are you willing to add it back any soon?
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Old 10-23-17, 03:37 PM
  #4586  
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hey carleton and bartek, how about you two maybe stop addressing each other?

this forum is nice when we talk about track cycling and are collegial.

it's boring and polluted when you two crab at each other.
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Old 10-23-17, 03:41 PM
  #4587  
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Originally Posted by queerpunk View Post
hey carleton and bartek, how about you two maybe stop addressing each other?

this forum is nice when we talk about track cycling and are collegial.

it's boring and polluted when you two crab at each other.
Yeap. As I said all these questions were rude in my opinion and as I stated before, I am not going to answer to anymore questions regarding my personal life. I came here for more track cycling related experience and I would like to stick to this, no matter someone believe in me or not.

So, absolute numbers are absolute numbers. For cyclists, engineers and all other World :-)
Cheers!

EDIT: And I am up for removing these unrelated posts here. I believe @carleton has credentials for it.
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Old 10-23-17, 03:59 PM
  #4588  
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BTW, my daughter thinks I'm the best daddy in the world.

On a technical note:
So Bartek, aside from pedal tension, one of the reasons I really like the Shimano design over Look (and old Shimano) is that the front of an spd -sl cleat actually engages below the platform of the pedal. This design helps prevent the pedal from releasing when pulling back since the nose of the cleat will actually hit the pedal body when pulling directly back. So you really can't even make a direct apples-to-apples comparison about pedal tension of the two systems. Not that I would use speed plays, but that also can't really be compared.
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Old 10-23-17, 04:21 PM
  #4589  
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As for stiffness, until it's tested we don't know what's stiff and what is not. For example, every Japanese rider I know claims that frames get softer as they get older/used. But all science indicates that frames generally (metallic) get stiffer as they get fatigued through work hardening. What about carbon? Carbon doesn't fatigue, but maybe the resins breakdown with flexing or age? Deeper rims are often considered stiffer than shallower rims. However, if you don't do it right, the longer rim walls end up as a point of flex such that you can actually get break rub on a road bike when you lean it over in a turn.

So the Mavic Io. It looks really stiff. But it's not triangulated like a spoked wheel. Is it stiffer? I don't know, and I wouldn't trust myself to make the judgement. I do believe that confidence in equipment is important to go fast, so I can see why so many sprinters might convince themselves that it's a stiff wheel.



However, we don't even know if stiffness is even important (within reason).

All I know is that I can go reasonably quickly on a 25 year old disc and deep front wheel and I'll consider the evidence as we see more data.
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Old 10-23-17, 04:32 PM
  #4590  
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Originally Posted by queerpunk View Post
hey carleton and bartek, how about you two maybe stop addressing each other?

this forum is nice when we talk about track cycling and are collegial.

it's boring and polluted when you two crab at each other.
Please.
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Old 10-23-17, 04:37 PM
  #4591  
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Word on the street (never actually saw any hard data) was that the new Corimas were better than the Mavics in 5 spoke. But then factor in the good old Team GB. For all of their research and development, they are running a super special 3 spoke. 'nuff said.

Addressing another comment above, Look bought out Corima. Perhaps that was the catalyst behind the update. I tried to get a line on a Corima rear disc here in Australia, but they were non communicative post Look takeover.

Then, comparisons form track to TT/Tri use of front bladed spoke wheels are futile. Outdoor road racers deal with all manner of wind speeds and directions. Fighting with a bike to control it constantly over the course of a 90+km bike section is mentally and physically draining when it doesn't need to be. Despite what such riders might save in aero, the handling aspect well overrules those gains and so road use aero fronts are a compromise of aero and handling. Basically on the track, especialy indoor, all we really need to worry about is aero ~ a-la the front disc
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Old 10-23-17, 04:54 PM
  #4592  
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Originally Posted by tobukog View Post
So Bartek, aside from pedal tension, one of the reasons I really like the Shimano design over Look (and old Shimano) is that the front of an spd -sl cleat actually engages below the platform of the pedal. This design helps prevent the pedal from releasing when pulling back since the nose of the cleat will actually hit the pedal body when pulling directly back. So you really can't even make a direct apples-to-apples comparison about pedal tension of the two systems. Not that I would use speed plays, but that also can't really be compared.
I don't know the exact number of the max possible tension of the Shimano pedals. If it's good enough (16Nm for me but I know many people who uses 12Nm and are satisifed) then another factor is clearance. Look is not the best product here (compared to SPD-SL). As I use road bike as much as track bike (or even more) I decided to go with the Look as it's a way easier to walk with cleats and I do walk a lot to take pictures or get a coffee in mountains, so this is why I prefer Look over Shimano and didn't want to keep yet another system with another pair of shoes etc. For track only I would go with SPD-SL (as long as the tension is about 16Nm or maybe as you said for this system lower value is still enough).

Deeper rims are often considered stiffer than shallower rims.
I read an article where both theories were....correct. Shallower rims have longer spokes which also impact stiffness. I can't remember the final result but the article actually presented that it's easy to argue in one or another way
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Old 10-23-17, 08:13 PM
  #4593  
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I'm just going to say this. Just because the value of so.ething is unknown, doesn't invalidate it's properties. 1,2,3,4,X. X HAS A VALUE. To disregard it because you don't know it's value is leaving something on the table that can very well be useful. Before we had absolute values for things, we had relative comparisons. These comparisons are what became engineered values once there was a way to assign numbers to them. Before "engineering" we knew that bronze was in some ways better than wood, and iron was better than bronze. There were no numbers then; just experience.
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Old 10-23-17, 08:25 PM
  #4594  
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Originally Posted by taras0000 View Post
I'm just going to say this. Just because the value of so.ething is unknown, doesn't invalidate it's properties. 1,2,3,4,X. X HAS A VALUE. To disregard it because you don't know it's value is leaving something on the table that can very well be useful. Before we had absolute values for things, we had relative comparisons. These comparisons are what became engineered values once there was a way to assign numbers to them. Before "engineering" we knew that bronze was in some ways better than wood, and iron was better than bronze. There were no numbers then; just experience.
As long as you have time and money to experience with various models of the similar products it's possible to base only on experience. Experience of using same item by different riders is relative. This is why it's better to base on absolute numbers (if possible).
Let's say the 16Nm is my minimum required tension for Look pedals. Then I would look up for spec of the Shimano pedals to get similar value if I would like to switch. Occasionally, it can be under or overrated as @tobukog mentioned about different way for cleat engaging. However, it's still a good start point, better than just "buy and try" IMHO.
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Old 10-23-17, 09:51 PM
  #4595  
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Originally Posted by bartek. View Post
As long as you have time and money to experience with various models of the similar products it's possible to base only on experience. Experience of using same item by different riders is relative. This is why it's better to base on absolute numbers (if possible).IMHO.
Whether I try something or not doesn't change the value of X in my previous example. I CAN use another rider's experience with equipment as long as that rider exceeds my equipment needs, and the equipment is not failing that rider. If Rider A is more powerful than Rider B, then Rider A's equipment choices will suffice for rider B, regardless of knowing the failure point of said equipment. That's how relative experience works.

Do you know the failure points of the bikes you purchase? What about the N/Degree of flexion that these frames can sustain? No. You and I and just about everyone else on this board has made many of their most expensive purchases based on the relative information that was received from others. That's why you started a thread asking other people's opinions on bikes that you didn't have any experience with.

Last edited by taras0000; 10-24-17 at 12:58 AM.
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Old 10-24-17, 04:31 AM
  #4596  
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Actually I got this data for my road frame ;-)

But then lets go back to pedals and @carleton explained this:

Originally Posted by carleton View Post
Pedal exit tension is relative to the rider. A moderate setting for a big rider may render a smaller rider unable to escape! So, comparing pedal exit tension can't be done by looking at the pedals. One must also consider the rider's size and strength. So, we can't just say, "Set your pedals to min/medium/max tension..." as it is a relative setting.

I can exit vertically out of Shimano pedals set on max setting during a standing start but a 150lb rider couldn't even twist out of them on the middle setting.
I definitely agree with him. However it works as long as min-max range is enough for any rider. This is unknown. So, the absolute numbers are your help without guessing. I hardly believe Shimano doesn't provide this data.
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Old 10-24-17, 07:11 AM
  #4597  
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Originally Posted by taras0000 View Post
Whether I try something or not doesn't change the value of X in my previous example. I CAN use another rider's experience with equipment as long as that rider exceeds my equipment needs, and the equipment is not failing that rider. If Rider A is more powerful than Rider B, then Rider A's equipment choices will suffice for rider B, regardless of knowing the failure point of said equipment. That's how relative experience works.

Do you know the failure points of the bikes you purchase? What about the N/Degree of flexion that these frames can sustain? No. You and I and just about everyone else on this board has made many of their most expensive purchases based on the relative information that was received from others. That's why you started a thread asking other people's opinions on bikes that you didn't have any experience with.
This is true to a point, but what works for Rider A (more powerful) is not always a good choice for Rider B. Not trying to be nit picky, but there are difference between each rider. Now, if your looking for the strongest or most durable, then Rider A to B comparison will work. However, something that is better for Rider A, may be stronger, stiffer, etc and may work for Rider A as their weight gives it a different characteristic that may not be so good for Rider B. Think of shocks for vehicles. If I take the shocks off my 1 ton truck and put them on your passenger car, then they will not work well...they will be too stiff and not forgiving enough.

With bikes, with me weighing well over 200 lbs, my set up may be wary too harsh for a 150 lb rider and they may end up being slower as the bike is too twitchy and moves all over the track on them, which makes them slower in the end as "smoother is faster" and they can't be smooth on my bike. What is best for one track will not necessarily be best for another track due to track construction materials, radius of turns, bumps, etc.
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Old 10-24-17, 07:32 AM
  #4598  
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Just received a brand new SRM Track Science Power Meter. What chainring bolts do you recommend to use with it?

Does the knurled Dura Ace stainless steel bolts fit properly or I should rather go with no-knurled version such as Sugino aluminium bolts?
Attached Images
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Old 10-24-17, 09:17 AM
  #4599  
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Originally Posted by bartek. View Post
Actually I got this data for my road frame ;-)

But then lets go back to pedals and @carleton explained this:



I definitely agree with him. However it works as long as min-max range is enough for any rider. This is unknown. So, the absolute numbers are your help without guessing. I hardly believe Shimano doesn't provide this data.
lol.

Shimano SPD-SL have been the most popular road and track pedals for decades without providing this number you want. You are the only one I've heard demand it.

Last edited by carleton; 10-24-17 at 09:59 AM.
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Old 10-24-17, 10:15 AM
  #4600  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
Shimano SPD-SL have been the most popular road and track pedals for decades without providing this number you want. You are the only one I've heard demand it.
You get some examples from me and @divebrain why numbers matters. I like numbers, you don't need them. It's fine.
Most of ss/fixie services in my area don't use numbers either. I remember when I mounted my Sugino77 squar taper bb and I ask how much torque is needed. The guy (and then I checked in few other popular services where I get the same answer) answered nobody cares about numbers, use as much power in your hand as you have and you will be good Yeah...

Originally Posted by carleton View Post
Dude, you come off as one of those, "I know a lot about road riding (which is more complex than track) so track should be easy and I know more than those guys" dude. This is a common misconception.

That's like an electrical guitar player assuming, "Classical guitar is easy. How hard can it be? They don't even use amps! lol "
Never heard this statements before Actually, electrical guitar and bass guitar are more comparable in reference to road/track bikes. And yes, there is a lot of similarities here. Main difference is a technique of playing, not equipment even if you use different strings, amps, speakers, base wood etc etc etc. Same as road/track bike.
(I played on bass guitar in the past and released few records, I wasn't talented player but got good technical background about equipment)
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