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-   -   Ask your small, random, track-related questions here (https://www.bikeforums.net/track-cycling-velodrome-racing-training-area/924726-ask-your-small-random-track-related-questions-here.html)

jfiveeight 12-15-17 02:38 PM

People local to Hellyer: I will be in town next week and would like to get on the track. The site looks like it has sort of dated info but does have an up to date calendar. If I wanted to ride in the evening some day do I still reach out to the scheduling email or just show up and ride? (since there is nothing on the calendar). Some velodromes are open park use when no schedule is in place, others are locked up.

Baby Puke 12-15-17 04:32 PM

Hellyer will be locked up if nothing with a supervisor is scheduled. You should email the people.

sarals 12-16-17 04:22 PM


Originally Posted by jfiveeight (Post 20055026)
People local to Hellyer: I will be in town next week and would like to get on the track. The site looks like it has sort of dated info but does have an up to date calendar. If I wanted to ride in the evening some day do I still reach out to the scheduling email or just show up and ride? (since there is nothing on the calendar). Some velodromes are open park use when no schedule is in place, others are locked up.

Winter is a slow time at Hellyer! There is "usually" no evening riding during the week in the winter. In fact, most of the sessions we have during weekdays are off the calendar right now. Those are all morning sessions when they do happen. Sometimes, if a supervisor is available, there will be a Tuesday session, but this time of year that gets announced the night before via email. Weekends are your best bet. There are Beginner Sessions at 0830 followed by an Intermediate Session at 10:30 on Saturdays. There is an "Advanced Session" on Sundays, usually at 1000. Those sessions are '"reliably" on the calendar.

samuel86 12-18-17 11:10 PM

Track floor pumps!
What does everyone recommend for a track floor pump. My current pump head is struggle to hold 180+psi for my race tubulars. Willing to spend the right money on a decent and reliable pump.


I have been looking at the Silca range of pumps; Pista and Super Pista pumps

brawlo 12-18-17 11:22 PM


Originally Posted by samuel86 (Post 20060923)
Track floor pumps!
What does everyone recommend for a track floor pump. My current pump head is struggle to hold 180+psi for my race tubulars. Willing to spend the right money on a decent and reliable pump.


I have been looking at the Silca range of pumps; Pista and Super Pista pumps

I once watched a guy using a Topeak Joeblow Ace pump his disc up to 220PSI with one hand pumping while the other held the pump head on. I went out and purchased one right away. 3 Seasons on and still cranking out the pressure. Turns out the first high volume stage is also excellent for pumping up my MTB tyres too :thumb:

gycho77 12-19-17 01:08 AM

So he is Keirin racer in Korea so he speaks in Korean, but my question is do you think this is save way of glueing tubular tire?
He only put one heavy coat of glue and wait 24 hours.
He uses this method to glue his race wheel and other.
What do you think about this?

His step.
1) remove old tire
2) stretch tire
3) put tire
4) put really heavy coat of glue without removing the tire
5) pump the tire
6) clean excess glue with finger
7) look for gaps and add glue
8) wait a day

Morelock 12-19-17 05:06 AM

I don't have experience with this method, but I've glued a good number of tubulars, here's what I think. (take for granted there is some speculation)

In theory, if you were methodical in doing it and you used good glue, you'd probably be alright riding a tyre glued like this on "normal" roads or on a keirin track. (pretty shallow banks) In my mind, I'm gluing my tyres with the "worst case" scenario in mind, not "normal conditions."

I wouldn't want to glue my cyclocross tyres like that. (or my track tyres that I expected to bomb sharply off the top of the boards on)

*I do think most people (myself included) use much more glue than is necessary (I glue my own 2 coats on the tyre, 2 on the rim with a days drying between each coat, then a final wet layer on the rim, mount, although I've done 1/2 coats within a day when in a hurry for a race before with no ill effect. *for a road tt)

Godsight 12-19-17 06:44 AM

Regarding pump for high pressure tubular, the best design I found is the Silca pumps. The cheapest and travel friendly Pista work wells and they also make a locking adapter for disc called the hiro side-lever chuck. They are not cheap but with parts still available for 25+ year old silca pump, it is a decent long term investment.

topflightpro 12-19-17 08:06 AM

I have an old Silca pump. It has been a nightmare. I've replaced the gasket more times than I can count, and it never works well.

But I realize my experience tends to be the exception.

JimiMimni 12-19-17 08:07 AM


Originally Posted by gycho77 (Post 20061020)
https://youtu.be/URZEK3-DIfQ
So he is Keirin racer in Korea so he speaks in Korean, but my question is do you think this is save way of glueing tubular tire?
He only put one heavy coat of glue and wait 24 hours.
He uses this method to glue his race wheel and other.
What do you think about this?

His step.
1) remove old tire
2) stretch tire
3) put tire
4) put really heavy coat of glue without removing the tire
5) pump the tire
6) clean excess glue with finger
7) look for gaps and add glue
8) wait a day

There is some more discussion about tubular gluing in the track tires sticky, I think.

The common dogma I was taught regarding track tubs is that high pressure in the tires does as much, or more, than the glue.

I personally do two layers on rim and tire with a wet mounting layer. I run through the whole process in one sitting. Normally I do a wheel, a tire, the other wheel, and the other tire. By the time I've come back to the start of the cycle, the first layer of glue is dry and I apply another. When the second round is finished, it's mounting time. This doesn't count stretching the tires, which is either superfluous, or SUPER necessary (Continentals!! :mad:).

Several others I've spoken with wait entire days between layers, and when I worked in a shop this is how we glued tubs. This is one of those black voodoo things in gluing tubs. There isn't any real hard evidence on the effect of waiting vs. not.

Do good work, make your layers nice and even, and you should be fine. Treat it like painting a picture, not just slobbing glue on.

rensho3 12-19-17 11:54 AM

I am very happy using the Lezyne pump for my track tires. It gets and holds 180 psi without problem.

1incpa 12-19-17 04:44 PM

I use an old Silica pump that I put the Hirame head on: Hirame / Kuwahara pump head / (Presta/French) adapter + 3 pack of seals - Staff Picks
The pump easily reaches 200psi, and the head stays put. This head has the added benefit of fitting in the hole in my disc. No more crack pipe.
PI

700wheel 12-19-17 06:56 PM


Originally Posted by rensho3 (Post 20061718)
I am very happy using the Lezyne pump for my track tires. It gets and holds 180 psi without problem.

I have used my Lezyne high pressure pump (220 psi) for around ten years. It has a screw-on chuck.
The o-ring seal on my pump still good (although I have replaced the seal using a Home Depot o-ring a couple of times on a Lezyne pump at my local track but then maybe it gets lots of abuse).

gycho77 12-19-17 10:36 PM

Thank you.
I think I will justbstick with multiple layers of glue.

700wheel 12-19-17 11:13 PM


Originally Posted by gycho77 (Post 20062809)
Thank you.
I think I will justbstick with multiple layers of glue.

Gycho77, Did you ever take delivery of your custom track frame and if so how do you like it?

gycho77 12-19-17 11:51 PM


Originally Posted by 700wheel (Post 20062837)
Gycho77, Did you ever take delivery of your custom track frame and if so how do you like it?

Oh...
beause I donít have that much time I just decided to buy Dixie Flyer.
But he will be preparing for NAHBS but not this year.

Baby Puke 12-20-17 02:45 AM


Originally Posted by gycho77 (Post 20062860)
Oh...
beause I donít have that much time I just decided to buy Dixie Flyer.
But he will be preparing for NAHBS but not this year.

Let's see that Dixie then!

southernfox 12-20-17 09:56 AM

Here's a thing I'm struggling with right now. I think the power is there to do much better times for 200m and 500m (I can hold 1000w for 20s, 850w for 30s), but I really struggle getting cadences over 110-120 in race gears. For example, I'm hitting turn 3 in 500m starts at 118rpm, but that's just not fast enough. I have a similar problem in 200m starts: I jump from 90-95rpm, but I just can't get it up over 120 by the time I'm hitting corner 1.

So how do you translate power into *speed* and cadence in race gears?

(And yes I have a coach, and yes we've talked about this...but I'd like more help.)

queerpunk 12-20-17 10:07 AM

That's pretty common when roadies transition to track racing. My coach rolls his eyes at training power ("yeah, anyone can do XXX watts at 60rpm - the hard part is doing it at 120 rpm"), and closer to the season, we do a lot of work to make sure that I'm putting down power at speed. We call it "activation."

You have a few other options. You can use big gears - that's what a lot of people do. The drawback to big gears is that while they tend to be good for qualifying, they can be pretty rough in sprint rounds.

But really you just need to train power application at those cadences. There are a few components of this. You need to be generally comfortable at higher cadences, and this comes from prolonged intervals at higher cadences than you'd ever do on the road. Then, you need to have the neuromuscular ability to apply lower torque faster faster - and that means overcadence spinups. The final piece of the puzzle is pulling those together into actual power application at the cadences. A lot of sprint work is focused just on hitting cadence targets; once the max creeps up, it's time to gear up. That's when you're truly applying power at race-appropriate cadences.

This is the time when I point out that if your coach doesn't understand the specific demands of track racing then you might not be getting what you need given your goals. I've seen road coaches try to train track athletes and grope blindly in the dark because there is stuff that they just don't get.

southernfox 12-20-17 10:17 AM

(FWIW, these power numbers are usually 120-130rpm)

Oh my coach is track-specific and is decently well-known. We're doing all the things you list.

I can put down good power at 150rpm, and all my power PBs are 120-130rpm. But I struggle getting past 120rpm when I have to go spin up in a single gear (without shifting on the road bike, for example). My peak cadence is 210rpm, so the issue isn't that I can't hit cadences with low power. We do a lot of sprints where I roll at 20mph at 90-110rpm then sprint aiming to peak at 150-160rpm and then hold it for however long (often 10s but up to 20s).

carleton 12-20-17 10:24 AM


Originally Posted by southernfox (Post 20063276)
Here's a thing I'm struggling with right now. I think the power is there to do much better times for 200m and 500m (I can hold 1000w for 20s, 850w for 30s), but I really struggle getting cadences over 110-120 in race gears. For example, I'm hitting turn 3 in 500m starts at 118rpm, but that's just not fast enough. I have a similar problem in 200m starts: I jump from 90-95rpm, but I just can't get it up over 120 by the time I'm hitting corner 1.

So how do you translate power into *speed* and cadence in race gears?

(And yes I have a coach, and yes we've talked about this...but I'd like more help.)

Train to cadence and increase gears as you go. Don't put on your race gear for next summer and train until you spin it fast enough.

As you advance as a racer: Cadences stay the same. Gears get bigger.

This happens at a meso level (the gears you use in your winter and early season training phases into your race season and your peak) AND at the macro level (as you become a local, regional, national, and international standout).

I can show you that cadences used in the Team Sprint or 500M at a local velodrome championship are the same that are used at the World Championships...across genders.

The gears that top racers use at the beginning of the season are smaller than those they use at the peak of the season...but the cadences are the same.


Originally Posted by queerpunk (Post 20063302)
That's pretty common when roadies transition to track racing. My coach rolls his eyes at training power ("yeah, anyone can do XXX watts at 60rpm - the hard part is doing it at 120 rpm"), and closer to the season, we do a lot of work to make sure that I'm putting down power at speed. We call it "activation."

You have a few other options. You can use big gears - that's what a lot of people do. The drawback to big gears is that while they tend to be good for qualifying, they can be pretty rough in sprint rounds.

But really you just need to train power application at those cadences. There are a few components of this. You need to be generally comfortable at higher cadences, and this comes from prolonged intervals at higher cadences than you'd ever do on the road. Then, you need to have the neuromuscular ability to apply lower torque faster faster - and that means overcadence spinups. The final piece of the puzzle is pulling those together into actual power application at the cadences. A lot of sprint work is focused just on hitting cadence targets; once the max creeps up, it's time to gear up. That's when you're truly applying power at race-appropriate cadences.

This is the time when I point out that if your coach doesn't understand the specific demands of track racing then you might not be getting what you need given your goals. I've seen road coaches try to train track athletes and grope blindly in the dark because there is stuff that they just don't get.

+1 on everything, especially about the coach.

As mentioned before, a lot of road coaches think that training for track is easy, "How hard can it be?! They don't even have hills or gears." There is so much nuance.

southernfox 12-20-17 10:26 AM

So maybe that's an idea: train on smaller gears hitting the cadences.

queerpunk 12-20-17 10:28 AM

Ah, gotcha. Yeah, that's a different issue that what I interpreted at first.

You'll need to train to apply power through a cadence range, and you can do that on the track or on the road with rolling accelerations that start at 60rpm and take you above 120. You'll have to find the right gear that gets you what you want. The important part here, too, is steady power duration more so than spikes; you need to be able to still be applying that peak power 10+ seconds into the effort so that you can continue to accelerate past your former stall points. For top-end speed, the power you do at 15-20 seconds in to the effort is a lot more important than the first 5 or 10 seconds.

Separately but related, I was reading a report from an acquaintance who was training with Jair Tjon En Fa - doing solo top end accelerations followed by dropping behind the motor and accelerating again. Jair would hit 70kph on his own and then accelerate up to 90kph behind the motor.


Originally Posted by southernfox (Post 20063330)
So maybe that's an idea: train on smaller gears hitting the cadences.

A mix of smaller gears and full gearing - the top-end cadence isn't the problem, it's getting there after spending time applying power through the lower ranges. So improve the power application through that range (full gearing), AND improve your ability to climb out of it (undergearing).

As with a lot of sprint work, this should be done when fresh, with full rest between, and absolutely stop an effort once you start bogging down. Max power only. Do these wkos 2x/week and in a month, PBs will start pouring from the sky*.






*results not guaranteed.

southernfox 12-20-17 10:32 AM


Originally Posted by queerpunk (Post 20063337)
Ah, gotcha. Yeah, that's a different issue that what I interpreted at first.

You'll need to train to apply power through a cadence range, and you can do that on the track or on the road with rolling accelerations that start at 60rpm and take you above 120. You'll have to find the right gear that gets you what you want. The important part here, too, is steady power duration more so than spikes; you need to be able to still be applying that peak power 10+ seconds into the effort so that you can continue to accelerate past your former stall points. For top-end speed, the power you do at 15-20 seconds in to the effort is a lot more important than the first 5 or 10 seconds.

Separately but related, I was reading a report from an acquaintance who was training with Jair Tjon En Fa - doing solo top end accelerations followed by dropping behind the motor and accelerating again. Jair would hit 70kph on his own and then accelerate up to 90kph behind the motor.

Most of my long power PRs are during standing starts, and I'm really consistently applying power the whole time until I hit my max cadence, then power drops to 500-600w for the rest of the effort.

Also: holy sh**.

southernfox 12-20-17 10:33 AM


Originally Posted by queerpunk (Post 20063337)
A mix of smaller gears and full gearing - the top-end cadence isn't the problem, it's getting there after spending time applying power through the lower ranges. So improve the power application through that range (full gearing), AND improve your ability to climb out of it (undergearing).

As with a lot of sprint work, this should be done when fresh, with full rest between, and absolutely stop an effort once you start bogging down. Max power only. Do these wkos 2x/week and in a month, PBs will start pouring from the sky*.






*results not guaranteed.

That is EXACTLY the issue, yes. And I do the efforts fresh, usually doing 4-6 with 15-20min rests between. And as soon as I see peak power decline ~10% I shut it down and go home.


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