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Track Cycling: Velodrome Racing and Training Area Looking to enter into the realm of track racing? Want to share your experiences and tactics for riding on a velodrome? The Track Cycling forums is for you! Come in and discuss training/racing, equipment, and current track cycling events.

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Old 02-12-18, 04:00 PM   #4876
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Thoughts? Experiences? Would be super fun with BKOOL's simulated velodromes.
Have you tried Bkool yet? Admittedly I had to cut back the quality because my internet is so crap, but I found it to be quite a bland experience, especially the velodrome. I had high hopes, but unless they've picked up their game, I wouldn't bother. I used it last year around May/June. You just ride around the black line. There was keirin racing, but you had to have at least 4 other riders available to do that. With such a small rider base, unless you had some friends scheduled in, there was nothing to do on the velo besides TT stuff or endless laps. I really hope it has gotten better, as there was a lot of promise in what they had.

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Sorry...search function doesnít really like me...

Is anyone using the TA Specialties track rings? I fancy just trying to calm my cadence down half a click, are these ok or should I pony up to a Campag chain ring for too much more?

Wiggle | TA 144 PCD Shimano/Campag Track Chainring (50-52T) | Chainrings
These days, with modern CNC machining, there really aren't any more excuses for out of round chainrings. So the biggest differences should come from the chainring materials, but I would say even a cheap ring will last a long time under normal track use conditions. I honestly don't believe that the "name" rings deserve their high prices any more besides their bling factor. There are so many offerings out there from so many makers that come in at $100 or better
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Old 02-12-18, 04:20 PM   #4877
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Have you tried Bkool yet? Admittedly I had to cut back the quality because my internet is so crap, but I found it to be quite a bland experience, especially the velodrome. I had high hopes, but unless they've picked up their game, I wouldn't bother. I used it last year around May/June. You just ride around the black line. There was keirin racing, but you had to have at least 4 other riders available to do that. With such a small rider base, unless you had some friends scheduled in, there was nothing to do on the velo besides TT stuff or endless laps. I really hope it has gotten better, as there was a lot of promise in what they had.
I've been using BKOOL for about 3 months now, and love it. I don't use the Velodrome much, except to do VO2max intervals on the 1K. It's basically just something else to look at besides a bunch of intervals bars on the screen. What like most is the simulated rides, and the fact that I can upload my own past rides and time trial races and do simulated versions of them. It's a great way to prep for a course, and I like the avatars much more than Zwift's. It's Zwift that I find completely boring, stuck with the same islands and loops, vs, the thousands of routes on BKOOL both simulated and video. However, I do switch back and forth between BKOOL and Rouvy (used to be Virtual Training). I've been using that program for over a year, and I use it mainly for interval training. BKOOL's program for building workouts is buggy and a pain to use.

I'm just now entering the threshold phase of my training for the new season, so I may start jumping on BKOOL more now to see if I can attract some others to the Velodrome.
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Old 02-12-18, 04:52 PM   #4878
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I've been using BKOOL for about 3 months now, and love it. I don't use the Velodrome much, except to do VO2max intervals on the 1K. It's basically just something else to look at besides a bunch of intervals bars on the screen. What like most is the simulated rides, and the fact that I can upload my own past rides and time trial races and do simulated versions of them. It's a great way to prep for a course, and I like the avatars much more than Zwift's. It's Zwift that I find completely boring, stuck with the same islands and loops, vs, the thousands of routes on BKOOL both simulated and video. However, I do switch back and forth between BKOOL and Rouvy (used to be Virtual Training). I've been using that program for over a year, and I use it mainly for interval training. BKOOL's program for building workouts is buggy and a pain to use.

I'm just now entering the threshold phase of my training for the new season, so I may start jumping on BKOOL more now to see if I can attract some others to the Velodrome.
Sounds good. I was really pumped with what Bkool offered and down here in the deep deep southern hemisphere Aussies were offered Bkool for free until the end of 2017. I quickly found that my internet was far too crap to enjoy the experience for what it could have been. The only graphic level that worked was the basic.....sooooo disappointing. I ended up going back to zwift for the winter
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Old 02-14-18, 07:44 PM   #4879
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Are clinchers still considered "unsafe" for track riding/racing?

I've heard that "tubulars are safer" and "you'll roll a clincher" (knock wood) since I started in the sport. But I've never seen or heard of a clincher rolling off of rim. I've seen video of a few tubulars rolling off (likely due to user error). I've seen punctures with both styles of tires and riders handled them no differently.

Clinchers are used at the highest levels of the sport. There are countless photos of top tier elites training on Mavic Ellipse clincher wheels, unless there is a tubular variant that I'm not aware of.

So, is the advice against clinchers still valid? Maybe clinchers used to be worse but not so much anymore?




On a related note: It seems that the Campy Pista wheels could be considered a tubular version of the Ellipse. Similar rim depth, bladed spokes, spoke count, etc... but yet they are not nearly as popular. They are about 50% more expensive. I can't say that I've ever seen any elites riding them (in person or photos) and I've only seen 1 set in the wild in general.
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Old 02-14-18, 09:28 PM   #4880
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Are clinchers still considered "unsafe" for track riding/racing?

I've heard that "tubulars are safer" and "you'll roll a clincher" (knock wood) since I started in the sport. But I've never seen or heard of a clincher rolling off of rim. I've seen video of a few tubulars rolling off (likely due to user error). I've seen punctures with both styles of tires and riders handled them no differently.

Clinchers are used at the highest levels of the sport. There are countless photos of top tier elites training on Mavic Ellipse clincher wheels, unless there is a tubular variant that I'm not aware of.

So, is the advice against clinchers still valid? Maybe clinchers used to be worse but not so much anymore?




On a related note: It seems that the Campy Pista wheels could be considered a tubular version of the Ellipse. Similar rim depth, bladed spokes, spoke count, etc... but yet they are not nearly as popular. They are about 50% more expensive. I can't say that I've ever seen any elites riding them (in person or photos) and I've only seen 1 set in the wild in general.
The only hazard/warning I've heard re. clincher safety is to take the valve nut off as if you roll a tyre, it canruin your rim.
Practically everyone I ride with trains on clinchers, either Ellipse or Miche Pistard and I haven't seen or heard anything negative. Anecdotal, but I punctured my rear clincher on an outdoor/concrete velodrome halfway through an effort and still managed to stay upright, so it didn't seem any different to a tub puncturing. When I was in Japan, I saw the national team and Perkins/Dmitriev training on clinchers as well, so I'm guessing if it's good enough for them...

Another alternative to the Campy Pista is the Miche Pistard tubular variant. Not quite as aero as the Ellipse/Pista but bomb proof and a very solid training wheel. Super affordable as well.
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Old 02-15-18, 06:13 AM   #4881
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I'd always heard the same about clinchers... I think a lot of it is just repeated "knowledge" from a bygone era.

In my experience I've never had or seen a clincher "blow off the rim" like many of the arguments on the net against them seem to think is guaranteed to happen, but I could see a scenario where you flatted on the track towards the top, and as you cut back down it rolled it off and possibly toppled you and/or ruined your rim... in which case if you had a seriously glued on tubie (I know some folks love that carpet glue still) it *might* stay on and not roll off. That's pretty corner case.

*Of course for racing on a smooth track you can't get the same pressure in a clincher, and currently no tyre manufacturer makes a track specific super low crr (on par with vitt pista evo's/olympics/dugast silks/etc) so if you want the fastest out there, you do still have to go with a tubular.
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Old 02-15-18, 09:23 AM   #4882
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I'd always heard the same about clinchers... I think a lot of it is just repeated "knowledge" from a bygone era.

In my experience I've never had or seen a clincher "blow off the rim" like many of the arguments on the net against them seem to think is guaranteed to happen, but I could see a scenario where you flatted on the track towards the top, and as you cut back down it rolled it off and possibly toppled you and/or ruined your rim... in which case if you had a seriously glued on tubie (I know some folks love that carpet glue still) it *might* stay on and not roll off. That's pretty corner case.

*Of course for racing on a smooth track you can't get the same pressure in a clincher, and currently no tyre manufacturer makes a track specific super low crr (on par with vitt pista evo's/olympics/dugast silks/etc) so if you want the fastest out there, you do still have to go with a tubular.
I agree about the repeated knowledge lore that goes round and round. Getting rid of the old "facts" is why we communicate, right?

I can't really comment on crr, but some Vredstein tires go up to 160psi and Tufo Tubular Clinchers (tubular tire with a clincher bead attached for use on clincher rims) can go over 200psi.

That being said, I've seen household names using Conti GP 4000s on clincher training wheels. Conti GP Supersonic were supposed to be fast clincher race wheels. I loved them. But, I think they are not available anymore.

For clarification, I'm not making a case for clincher race wheels. Just asking in general.
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Old 02-15-18, 10:04 AM   #4883
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It's possible if you had a really high psi in a clincher, then it might "blow" when/if you flatted. I dunno if that's high enough for it to blow off or not, I've never ran clinchers over 90psi.

SuSo's are still out there, the 20mm one got wider last year which sucked for those of us with narrow front wheels (HED3) - fwiw of the "super low crr" clinchers the SuSo's were the most resilient in my experience. Black Chili compound hype.

* personally I wouldn't hesitate to race on clinchers. Especially on an outdoor track that isn't super smooth (looking at you turn4 DLV )
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Old 02-15-18, 01:33 PM   #4884
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I train on Mavic Ellipses with Vittoria Rubio Pro clinchers. They are great for training because they are slow and bomb proof! I have flatted on the rear wheel and made it out alive down off the banking on VSC. I do race on disks and FF 90s with Vittoria speeds which are kind of fragile, but feel great and are fast. I agree that the old saw concerning "safety" of clinchers is no longer true, if it ever was.
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Old 02-15-18, 03:54 PM   #4885
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I've been racing and training on clinchers ever since I started track riding. I started off with Vittoria Diamante Pros that came on my first track bike. They were a great tyre and lasted 2.5 seasons. Since then I tried Conti SuSos (lasted a few months - super unhappy with them), went back to the Vittorias (they had gone down from a 160psi max to 145 and only lasted a season this time) and now do almost everything on Conti GP4000S2. I have a second set of wheels nowadays and my original wheels (Velocity aeroheads 32/32 to DA hubs) now roll on Veloflex records that I only ride on bigger race days outdoors or for training indoors. My tubs only ever get used for boards racing. I've never had a problem with clinchers.

Not sure about elsewhere worldwide, but over here all racing from U17 and younger is on alloy clinchers. When you go to outdoor track carnivals, I would say at least half, if not more of the racers are using alloy clinchers. I've only ever seen one blowout mid race and the guy held it up and didn't affect any one else
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Old 02-15-18, 06:20 PM   #4886
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10-20mm risers for 3T aerobars

I sent a request to 3T and asked if they had a riser kit for the Minstral aero bars, and they said no.
Then I found this.

https://www.bikebling.com/3T-Mistral...-riser-kit.htm

Huh? Has anyone raised these bars? I'd actually prefer to just raise the pads instead of the bars, which is what I do on my TT bike. I have 10mm spacer between the pads and bars. But the spacers in between the bars and the pursuit bars is fine I suppose - same end
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Old 02-15-18, 07:12 PM   #4887
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I sent a request to 3T and asked if they had a riser kit for the Minstral aero bars, and they said no.
Then I found this.

https://www.bikebling.com/3T-Mistral...-riser-kit.htm

Huh? Has anyone raised these bars? I'd actually prefer to just raise the pads instead of the bars, which is what I do on my TT bike. I have 10mm spacer between the pads and bars. But the spacers in between the bars and the pursuit bars is fine I suppose - same end
it seems like it's what you need. It seems like it solves your problem. What is the reason for not getting it?
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Old 02-15-18, 07:49 PM   #4888
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I sent a request to 3T and asked if they had a riser kit for the Minstral aero bars, and they said no.
Then I found this.

https://www.bikebling.com/3T-Mistral...-riser-kit.htm

Huh? Has anyone raised these bars? I'd actually prefer to just raise the pads instead of the bars, which is what I do on my TT bike. I have 10mm spacer between the pads and bars. But the spacers in between the bars and the pursuit bars is fine I suppose - same end
so Mistral's mount underneath the base bar. 3T used to supply a conversion kit to mount them on top of the base bar, but I doubt it's still around.

You *could* (not saying it's safe to do so) reverse the way the clamps are mounted (mounting them on top of the base bar) and then put risers underneath the pads to bring them up above the now raised bars...

Are you sure you have Mistals? What you're describing doesn't match up with them.
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Old 02-15-18, 11:22 PM   #4889
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so Mistral's mount underneath the base bar. 3T used to supply a conversion kit to mount them on top of the base bar, but I doubt it's still around.

You *could* (not saying it's safe to do so) reverse the way the clamps are mounted (mounting them on top of the base bar) and then put risers underneath the pads to bring them up above the now raised bars...

Are you sure you have Mistals? What you're describing doesn't match up with them.
They are Minsrtal Pros. Is there also a standard Minstral? See pic
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Old 02-16-18, 04:32 AM   #4890
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yep, that's them.

If you ONLY want to raise the pads, that kit you linked *should* work. (The only issue might be that the mistrals base bars curves into a "tear" shape a bit more than 3T's other bars, so it might not sit flush.) You'll also need different bolts than those supplied with the kit (although that's easily solved with a trip to home depot/lowes) since the mistrals pads bolt directly into the base bar.

I think the person you spoke to at 3T (as well as me at first) were assuming you wanted to raise the extensions and the pads. To do that you'd need the conversion kit (part # 30006, MISTRAL combo clamp conversion kit) which makes it mount similarly to a Brezza/Aura/etc. Here's a picture of the kit installed on one of Zabriskie's old Felts. I haven't seen one floating around in years though.

TL;DR the link you posted should allow you to raise ONLY the pads, so long as you have the right bolts.
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Old 02-16-18, 08:02 AM   #4891
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it seems like it's what you need. It seems like it solves your problem. What is the reason for not getting it?
My bars are the Minstral Pro. I think the kit is for a standard Minstral
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Old 02-16-18, 08:19 AM   #4892
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There was only one version of Mistral sold. They are all "Pro" models.
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Old 02-16-18, 09:26 AM   #4893
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There was only one version of Mistral sold. They are all "Pro" models.
Ok, got that, but I am confused on how the kit actually raises the pursuit bars and the pads on top of them. If you add the spacers below underneath the pursuit bars and in between the Aero bars, it will simply lower the aero bars and the pursuit bars and pads will stay at the same level, because the height of the pursuit bars are fixed to the height of the stem.

It seems that the only way to raise the pursuit bars and pads, without increasing the height of the stem the stem, would be to place the spacers underneath the pads. Am I missing something? Need more coffee!
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Old 02-16-18, 10:05 AM   #4894
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You are correct.

Is your objective to have a setup similar to this? Note the short, medium, & tall risers on the 3 bikes.



If so, you will have to use a different set of aerobars. I created a set of "kilo bars" using 3T system with the extended risers back in 2010 or so when they first came out with the modular system. It was awesome.

I sold them when I realized that riding the Kilo was for fools and madmen.

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Old 02-16-18, 11:23 AM   #4895
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Carleton is (mostly) right, although you CAN convert them if you really wanted to, hunting down/buying the parts is probably more expensive than just selling them and buying some brezza's/aura's

3T made the Mistrals to be a low stack bar (due to an "outcry" at the time that all their other bars had very high stack) and while parts of them (the pad position) are very adjustable, pretty much everything else is not adjustable, particularly stack.

What you have is this
[top]
pad bolts
pads
hardware mounting bolts (for extensions below basebar)
basebar
mounting hardware / extensions
[bottom]

First a caution... DO NOT add spacers BELOW the base bar. The Mistrals are not designed for that.

So your choices with what you have right now are limited to basically adding spacers between the pads and the base bar (I've done this for athletes in the past on this bar so it will work) OR buying additional hardware. THIS specifically is what you need. (conveniently out of stock) but you could also use any of the mounting brackets cannibalized off of a Brezza/Aura bar. With those brackets, the extensions AND the pads mount above the bar (like the picture I posted above) - if you do this you do lose the adjustability of moving the pads as far out as you'd (possibly) like.

If you look at the 3T AURA bar, it is exactly the same as the Mistral with the exception that it already has this mounting hardware. (and it doesn't have the little holes in the basebar for wider mounting of the pads)

Last edited by Morelock; 02-16-18 at 11:30 AM.
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Old 02-16-18, 12:39 PM   #4896
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I travel for work and there happens to be two outdoor tracks within less than an hour drive of the one work location.

If I had a free night to go try a race and get your butt kicked, what race (scratch, elimination, Danish/Dutch race) would you do if you knew the following:

-newbie with basic safety intro course completed
-can manage low 600's watts for a minute, about 360 or so for 3 minutes, I can pull out a 1200w sprint if I have to........I'm not very big, right now 70kg.
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Old 02-16-18, 12:43 PM   #4897
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most race nights have several races for entrants. if you're traveling... go do 'em all. that's the best way to learn.

your wattage will matter less than your ability to see what's going on around you and ride accordingly.
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Old 02-16-18, 12:53 PM   #4898
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..................... Danish/Dutch race..........................
What is this race - a search did not find it.
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Old 02-16-18, 02:12 PM   #4899
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I travel for work and there happens to be two outdoor tracks within less than an hour drive of the one work location.

If I had a free night to go try a race and get your butt kicked, what race (scratch, elimination, Danish/Dutch race) would you do if you knew the following:

-newbie with basic safety intro course completed
-can manage low 600's watts for a minute, about 360 or so for 3 minutes, I can pull out a 1200w sprint if I have to........I'm not very big, right now 70kg.
As queerpunk says, do them all.

Doing well and winning mean very little in the beginner CAT5/D races. The points are only kept for when it's time to apply for an upgrade. You need experience. Race as much as you can. Most racers race every event for a given race night.

Do not expect to do well. Pay attention and focus on safety and finishing each race.

I've seen people go balls-out in a beginner race and it's not necessary. These are "training races" not unlike pickup basketball games at the YMCA. You are simply playing on the least competitive court.

Don't be discouraged by what I'm writing. You will have fun. And we all had to race them in order to progress to higher divisions. Even P/1/2 racers have to start on CAT5/D.
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Old 02-16-18, 04:50 PM   #4900
burnthesheep
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Thanks! Agreed. For fun and experience.

I think I remember the Danish race is where there is a bunch sprint every few laps and if you win youíre out and thatís your place starting from first place until top 5 is set. Dutch or Belgian is opposite, you win an early sprint you get a worse finish. But if you wait till end you may not plce at all.
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