Go Back  Bike Forums > The Racer's Forum > Track Cycling: Velodrome Racing and Training Area
Reload this Page >

Ask your small, random, track-related questions here

Track Cycling: Velodrome Racing and Training Area Looking to enter into the realm of track racing? Want to share your experiences and tactics for riding on a velodrome? The Track Cycling forums is for you! Come in and discuss training/racing, equipment, and current track cycling events.

Ask your small, random, track-related questions here

Old 10-02-18, 11:05 AM
  #5201  
rensho3
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Santa Ana
Posts: 278

Bikes: Fuji Elite, 3Rensho track, Trek Madone 6.9, Specialized MTB, GT MTB, Cannondale Cad3 fixie

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 72 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by southernfox View Post
You don't get a re-ride in mass start events: only the individual ones like TT. The UCI was super explicit about that distinction.
Uhh, I was talking about sprint rounds, not a mass start race. Perhaps they changed the rule when I wasn't looking.
rensho3 is offline  
Old 10-02-18, 11:09 AM
  #5202  
southernfox
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 275
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 194 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by rensho3 View Post
Uhh, I was talking about sprint rounds, not a mass start race. Perhaps they changed the rule when I wasn't looking.
Sprint rounds are considered mass start.
southernfox is offline  
Old 10-02-18, 11:54 AM
  #5203  
tobukog
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 187
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 95 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by southernfox View Post
Sprint rounds are considered mass start.
As far as I can remember, you can get a reride for a legitimate mishap. Did the refs mention a change in UCI rules?
tobukog is offline  
Old 10-02-18, 12:46 PM
  #5204  
topflightpro
Senior Member
 
topflightpro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,268
Mentioned: 44 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1226 Post(s)
Liked 20 Times in 14 Posts
Originally Posted by tobukog View Post
As far as I can remember, you can get a reride for a legitimate mishap. Did the refs mention a change in UCI rules?
USAC was offering re-starts for mishaps during sprint rounds at Masters Nationals this year.
topflightpro is online now  
Old 10-02-18, 04:48 PM
  #5205  
southernfox
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 275
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 194 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by tobukog View Post
As far as I can remember, you can get a reride for a legitimate mishap. Did the refs mention a change in UCI rules?
The head UCI referee said that no re-rides for mass start, which includes sprint rounds. He was super clear on me knowing that.
southernfox is offline  
Old 10-02-18, 04:50 PM
  #5206  
southernfox
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 275
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 194 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
...usually they'll allow one restart for something like slipping down the track early in a match sprint, but they make you rider 1 (even if you were rider 2). That is in the rule book. A second time is a relegation.

FWIW, one of the men's team sprint teams had a pulled pedal...got a restart...had a second pulled pedal = DQ.
southernfox is offline  
Old 10-03-18, 06:04 AM
  #5207  
queerpunk
aka mattio
 
queerpunk's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 6,502
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 304 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Plenty of officials will let some wiggle room in, too, depending on the level of the race. I was holding a rider for a keirin, and on the start, her wheel pulled - those damn Cane Creeks. As I was fixing it, the official said, "This isn't a recognized mishap, but you flew here to race, so we'll allow it."
queerpunk is offline  
Old 10-03-18, 04:31 PM
  #5208  
rensho3
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Santa Ana
Posts: 278

Bikes: Fuji Elite, 3Rensho track, Trek Madone 6.9, Specialized MTB, GT MTB, Cannondale Cad3 fixie

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 72 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by southernfox View Post
...usually they'll allow one restart for something like slipping down the track early in a match sprint, but they make you rider 1 (even if you were rider 2). That is in the rule book. A second time is a relegation.

FWIW, one of the men's team sprint teams had a pulled pedal...got a restart...had a second pulled pedal = DQ.
That is consistent with my understanding of the rule book, and Tobukog's.
rensho3 is offline  
Old 10-03-18, 05:01 PM
  #5209  
Godsight
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Qc,Canada
Posts: 155

Bikes: Felt TK FRD

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 57 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Guess I was more unlucky than some of you. At the last canadian nationals in milton during the pursuit qualifier. I had the threads on my hubs for the 13T cog explode on the standing start. Everything was properly installed beforehand. Luckily my race wheels have a flip/flip design so I had another cog (14T) installed and ready but still had to get my tools on the infield, switch the side of the wheels and change the chainring to keep a similar gearing. Got ready quickly enough that only a single heat passed between my false start and my restart.

In the end, I still got disqualified because the other rider passed me at 2km to go but bonked at 1km to go and I passed him back at the end to keep my pace. It was the last race of the weekend' so i drove back home (9hr drive from Milton ontario to quebec city) after the race and when i arrived at home saw that I was fined 50$ for not having spare at the starting area. Even if I had a spare wheel, chainring and my tools at the starting area, I would have still needed the same amount of time to fix my issue.
Godsight is offline  
Old 10-03-18, 05:33 PM
  #5210  
southernfox
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 275
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 194 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by rensho3 View Post
That is consistent with my understanding of the rule book, and Tobukog's.
But they're not giving you a re-ride in a match sprint for a pulled pedal, which is what I think you suggested. The UCI head official wanted to make very sure I understood the distinction.
southernfox is offline  
Old 10-03-18, 05:35 PM
  #5211  
southernfox
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 275
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 194 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Godsight View Post
Guess I was more unlucky than some of you. At the last canadian nationals in milton during the pursuit qualifier. I had the threads on my hubs for the 13T cog explode on the standing start. Everything was properly installed beforehand. Luckily my race wheels have a flip/flip design so I had another cog (14T) installed and ready but still had to get my tools on the infield, switch the side of the wheels and change the chainring to keep a similar gearing. Got ready quickly enough that only a single heat passed between my false start and my restart.

In the end, I still got disqualified because the other rider passed me at 2km to go but bonked at 1km to go and I passed him back at the end to keep my pace. It was the last race of the weekend' so i drove back home (9hr drive from Milton ontario to quebec city) after the race and when i arrived at home saw that I was fined 50$ for not having spare at the starting area. Even if I had a spare wheel, chainring and my tools at the starting area, I would have still needed the same amount of time to fix my issue.
They should put you at the end of the heats for your re-ride: you didn't have to rush.

But yes, it's against the rules to re-pass someone who passes you in a TT.

The fine is what's shocking to me...wtf.
southernfox is offline  
Old 10-03-18, 05:37 PM
  #5212  
Godsight
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Qc,Canada
Posts: 155

Bikes: Felt TK FRD

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 57 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by southernfox View Post
They should put you at the end of the heats for your re-ride: you didn't have to rush.

But yes, it's against the rules to re-pass someone who passes you in a TT.

The fine is what's shocking to me...wtf.
The commissaries were the one rushing me to restart asap.
Godsight is offline  
Old 10-03-18, 10:40 PM
  #5213  
brawlo
Senior Member
 
brawlo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,018
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 215 Post(s)
Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Originally Posted by tobukog View Post
As far as I can remember, you can get a reride for a legitimate mishap. Did the refs mention a change in UCI rules?
In every sprint tourney Iíve raced, mishaps in the first lap get a reride, but any time after that and itís better luck next time
brawlo is offline  
Old 10-04-18, 04:12 AM
  #5214  
southernfox
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 275
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 194 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Godsight View Post
The commissaries were the one rushing me to restart asap.
SUPER weird. They're supposed to put you at the end (and every UCI event I've done that's what they've done, including Nats last week). ...weird! That sucks.
southernfox is offline  
Old 10-04-18, 04:13 AM
  #5215  
southernfox
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 275
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 194 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by brawlo View Post


In every sprint tourney Iíve raced, mishaps in the first lap get a reride, but any time after that and itís better luck next time
A UCI event, though? Local stuff does that all the time, because they want people to enjoy racing and get some value.
southernfox is offline  
Old 10-04-18, 09:57 AM
  #5216  
taras0000
Senior Member
 
taras0000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: 43.2330941,-79.8022037,17
Posts: 1,673
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 305 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by southernfox View Post
A UCI event, though? Local stuff does that all the time, because they want people to enjoy racing and get some value.

It's in the UCI rules.

Race stoppages
3.2.048 The race may be stopped only:

1. in the case of fall. If the fall be intentionally caused by a competitor, that competitor shall be relegated or disqualified from the tournament according to the gravity of the fault committed and the other competitor declared the winner. In three or four-up heats, the race shall be immediately restarted with the remaining two or three riders. Should the fall have been caused by a competitor riding too slowly in a curve or by any other unintentional fault, the race shall be restarted and the offending rider shall take the inside of the track.
If the fall is not caused by a competitor committing a fault, commissaires shall decide whether the race is to be restarted with the riders in the same order or whether the positions at the time of the fall should be considered final.
2. in the case of a puncture.
3. in the case of the breakage of an essential part of the bicycle. In all of these three cases, the commissaires shall decide whether the race is to be restarted with the riders in the same order or whether the positions at the time of the incident should be considered final.
4. in the following cases: a) If a rider loses his balance, falls or touches an opponent or the barrier, the race shall be restarted and the rider in question shall take the inside of the track. b) If the starter observes a flagrant infringement and stops the race before the bell rings to indicate the start of the last lap, the commissaires may relegate or disqualify the rider committing the infringement. The other rider shall be declared the winner or in the case of a three or four-up race, it shall be restarted as a two or three-up race. (text modified on 1.01.02) 3.2.049
If the rider committing the infringement is not relegated or disqualified, the race shall be restarted and that rider shall take the inside of the track. (text modified on 1.01.02)

Last edited by taras0000; 10-04-18 at 10:14 AM.
taras0000 is offline  
Old 10-04-18, 12:54 PM
  #5217  
southernfox
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 275
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 194 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by taras0000 View Post
It's in the UCI rules.

Race stoppages
3.2.048 The race may be stopped only:

1. in the case of fall. If the fall be intentionally caused by a competitor, that competitor shall be relegated or disqualified from the tournament according to the gravity of the fault committed and the other competitor declared the winner. In three or four-up heats, the race shall be immediately restarted with the remaining two or three riders. Should the fall have been caused by a competitor riding too slowly in a curve or by any other unintentional fault, the race shall be restarted and the offending rider shall take the inside of the track.
If the fall is not caused by a competitor committing a fault, commissaires shall decide whether the race is to be restarted with the riders in the same order or whether the positions at the time of the fall should be considered final.
2. in the case of a puncture.
3. in the case of the breakage of an essential part of the bicycle. In all of these three cases, the commissaires shall decide whether the race is to be restarted with the riders in the same order or whether the positions at the time of the incident should be considered final.
4. in the following cases: a) If a rider loses his balance, falls or touches an opponent or the barrier, the race shall be restarted and the rider in question shall take the inside of the track. b) If the starter observes a flagrant infringement and stops the race before the bell rings to indicate the start of the last lap, the commissaires may relegate or disqualify the rider committing the infringement. The other rider shall be declared the winner or in the case of a three or four-up race, it shall be restarted as a two or three-up race. (text modified on 1.01.02) 3.2.049
If the rider committing the infringement is not relegated or disqualified, the race shall be restarted and that rider shall take the inside of the track. (text modified on 1.01.02)
I'm talking about for pulling a pedal. I was very explicitly told by the official that one would NOT get a re-ride for a pulled pedal in a mass start event, including match sprint. That's what we're talking about. Pulled pedals.
southernfox is offline  
Old 10-04-18, 03:14 PM
  #5218  
taras0000
Senior Member
 
taras0000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: 43.2330941,-79.8022037,17
Posts: 1,673
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 305 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Oh I know what we're talking about and can follow along just fine without having it spelled out for me. All anyone has mentioned is that you get a re-ride for a legitimate mishap. A mishap was defined earlier. Read up on that so you're not misinterpreting what people have written. No one had written that you get a re-ride for a pulled pedal in a mass start or sprint race, only for a mishap. The only time a pulled pedal is considered a legitimate mishap is if something physically breaks within the pedal and it can be proved that it wasn't due to lack of maintenance. That was sorted out way back. If an event is being run under UCI sanction or rules, then the UCI rulebook applies. If the event is not UCI sanctioned, and not running under UCI rules, then another set of rules will apply. Simple as that. Any debate beyond that is simple mental masturbati*n .

I posted that rule for anyone who wanted to know the full rule on the subject when it comes to Match Sprints. Coupled with Carleton's posting above, that's all you need to determine that pulling out of your pedal doesn't get you a re-ride.

Last edited by taras0000; 10-05-18 at 12:02 AM.
taras0000 is offline  
Old 10-04-18, 03:37 PM
  #5219  
brawlo
Senior Member
 
brawlo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,018
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 215 Post(s)
Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Originally Posted by southernfox View Post
A UCI event, though? Local stuff does that all the time, because they want people to enjoy racing and get some value.
The Cycling Australia rule book is based on the UCI rule book so for us it doesnít matter. @taras0000 has posted the relevant ruling.

Originally Posted by southernfox View Post
I'm talking about for pulling a pedal. I was very explicitly told by the official that one would NOT get a re-ride for a pulled pedal in a mass start event, including match sprint. That's what we're talking about. Pulled pedals.
If the pulled pedal causes you to fall then technically that would get you your reride. I guess this is a good theory behind the Hoy style strap connection. Maybe your straps need to be tighter or placed differently?
brawlo is offline  
Old 10-04-18, 05:50 PM
  #5220  
southernfox
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 275
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 194 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
My straps are all that kept my foot in...
southernfox is offline  
Old 10-04-18, 06:26 PM
  #5221  
carleton
Elitist
Thread Starter
 
carleton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 15,574
Mentioned: 82 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1206 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Originally Posted by southernfox View Post
My straps are all that kept my foot in...
1) If strapped properly and snugly, you would not be able to disengage from the pedal clip.

2) Stop using Nylon straps. BLS straps are booty. They just have a really good marketing and distribution campaign.

3) Nylon+Velcro straps in general are not superior to NJS style straps. Period. Nylon stretches. NJS straps do not. Period.

If you are concerned about pulling out, then install NJS straps behind the axle. On that note, any part of the strap that is in front of the axle does absolutely nothing to keep you in the back of the pedal.

If Hoy can ride with a single NJS strap and conquer the world...so can we

carleton is offline  
Old 10-04-18, 06:37 PM
  #5222  
carleton
Elitist
Thread Starter
 
carleton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 15,574
Mentioned: 82 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1206 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
I've tried several pedal systems that involve straps including:
- Speedplay Zeros with NJS single straps
- Speedplay Zeros with NJS double straps
- SPD-SL "Lance" pedals with NJS single straps
- SPD-SL "Lance" pedals with NJS double straps
- SPD-SL pedals with NJS single straps
- SPD-SL pedals with NJS double straps
- LOOK KEO 2 Max pedals with NJS single straps
- LOOK KEO Blade pedals with NJS single straps
- LOOK KEO Blade pedals with NJS double straps
- Shimano 600 old school slotted cleat pedals with NJS double straps
- SPD-SL pedals with nylon Hold Fast straps
- SPD-SL pedals with custom nylon velcro straps made by a bag maker
- SPD-SL pedals with nylon BLS straps
- about 10 prototypes of nylon-style straps (not of nylon but other top ($$$) materials) that I made myself.

...and I went back to Shimano SPD-SL pedals with NJS double straps behind the axle.


This is the most secure way without having to have that piece that Hoy and Baranoski had made.

Southern Fox, I'll go as far to say that I make more torque than you and if they can keep me in, they can keep you in. If you want to compare torque numbers from power files, I'm in

For everyone reading, ditch nylon straps. They stretch. Period. And you can't cinch them down like you can NJS straps. The are not "more aerodynamic".

Last edited by carleton; 10-04-18 at 06:58 PM.
carleton is offline  
Old 10-04-18, 06:39 PM
  #5223  
carleton
Elitist
Thread Starter
 
carleton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 15,574
Mentioned: 82 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1206 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Note that NJS straps are...

Made in Japan by Fujitoshi from two layers of strong, comfortable suede leather with stretch-proof laminate in the middle and heavy-duty, dual-riveted chromed steel buckles.
They aren't just "leather straps". Basic leather straps will stretch like a belt. NJS straps have been perfected. The buckle is an engineering marvel.
carleton is offline  
Old 10-04-18, 06:49 PM
  #5224  
carleton
Elitist
Thread Starter
 
carleton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 15,574
Mentioned: 82 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1206 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Not trying to rip on BLS, but the through-the-axle design of their straps is straight phoning it in. Mark my words, BLS straps are a fad. They simply look nice...and stretch. The fact that top riders still use them blows my mind.

It's awful. There are fixie pedal straps that are better at the job.

1/2 of the nylon is in front of the axle. Why is this bad? The whole purpose of pedal straps on SPD-SL / LOOK style pedals is to keep the spring-loaded clamp from opening up. That's about 5cm away from the axle. 6cm away from the webbing in front of the axle.

The best designs are like that which Hoy used. Matt Baranoski's dad (an engineer, BTW) made a similar device for Matt. Next would be to affix straps behind the axle that come over the foot above the clamp.

Any part of the strap that is in front of the axle simply works to keep your toes down. No one has a problem with their toes unclipping first
carleton is offline  
Old 10-05-18, 05:28 AM
  #5225  
Baby Puke
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Kanazawa
Posts: 1,450

Bikes: Marin Stelvio, Pogliaghi SL, Panasonic NJS, Dolan DF4, Intense Pro24 BMX

Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 234 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
My very "Hoy-style" set up. I love it. I don't think it's possible to unclip unless something major breaks.

Baby Puke is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.