Go Back  Bike Forums > The Racer's Forum > Track Cycling: Velodrome Racing and Training Area
Reload this Page >

Ask your small, random, track-related questions here

Track Cycling: Velodrome Racing and Training Area Looking to enter into the realm of track racing? Want to share your experiences and tactics for riding on a velodrome? The Track Cycling forums is for you! Come in and discuss training/racing, equipment, and current track cycling events.

Ask your small, random, track-related questions here

Reply

Old 11-07-18, 02:36 AM
  #5301  
Baby Puke
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Kanazawa
Posts: 1,369

Bikes: Marin Stelvio, Pogliaghi SL, Panasonic NJS, Dolan DF3, Intense Pro24 BMX

Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 187 Post(s)
These: VP-R73T - VP Components

Seriously.
Baby Puke is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-18, 05:28 AM
  #5302  
brawlo
Senior Member
 
brawlo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Australia
Posts: 947
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 182 Post(s)
Originally Posted by Kaben View Post
Haha yeah, i would hold onto them - they are going for crazy money even used!

I will take a look into the Skingrowsback straps - their website doesnt seem to want to load at the moment though. I too have long legs ( and very big feet, size 15 US) so i may have similar issues.




Thanks for the link Carleton - I forgot they had this section on Up!Up!Up! . All of those examples are for older style pedals - i have the newer composite style 6800 pedals. Do you know if it is possible to mount the zip ties perpendicular to the pedal across the sides without issue?
I suppose i could go down the route of drilling the lever at the back and adding a metal loop like in the last examples on upupup, but if i can avoid that great. If not i may have to look into buying some older model pedals.

Sorry for all the questions.

Rob
Wow man those are some flippers! You might actually have trouble getting something big enough for you. I was using size 48 wide Bonts at the time and standard straps only just fit!

I have seen pics, maybe here on BF where the chunky part on the Shimano carbons is drilled to allow fitting zip ties similar to how they are wrapped around the tabs on the metal pedals (if that makes sense)
brawlo is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-18, 07:41 AM
  #5303  
topflightpro
Senior Member
 
topflightpro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,017
Mentioned: 36 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1110 Post(s)
I have BLS straps, gloves and track bag.

I have the BLS pedal axle straps. I am not impressed with the quality. I've had them less than a year and do not use them during all my track sessions, but they are showing a ton of wear. I am not worried about them snapping on me yet, but I would expect better durability given the materials and cost.

The gloves are absolute garbage. They fit horribly. The material does not stretch at all. I do NOT recommend.

The track bag seems fine.
topflightpro is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-18, 08:37 AM
  #5304  
taras0000
Senior Member
 
taras0000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: 43.2330941,-79.8022037,17
Posts: 1,566
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 256 Post(s)
Originally Posted by Baby Puke View Post
These: VP-R73T - VP Components

Seriously.
Discontinued. I've been spending the last 2 months scouring the internet for some. Can't even get a pair in North America.
taras0000 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-18, 08:41 AM
  #5305  
taras0000
Senior Member
 
taras0000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: 43.2330941,-79.8022037,17
Posts: 1,566
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 256 Post(s)
Originally Posted by topflightpro View Post
I have BLS straps, gloves and track bag.

I have the BLS pedal axle straps. I am not impressed with the quality. I've had them less than a year and do not use them during all my track sessions, but they are showing a ton of wear. I am not worried about them snapping on me yet, but I would expect better durability given the materials and cost.

The gloves are absolute garbage. They fit horribly. The material does not stretch at all. I do NOT recommend.

The track bag seems fine.
Icon Pursuit motorcycle gloves. Come in smooth and perforated leather. Best gloves I've ever used for track.

Icon Pursuit Gloves

Last edited by taras0000; 11-07-18 at 06:39 PM.
taras0000 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-18, 08:51 AM
  #5306  
ruudlaff
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 152
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 69 Post(s)
Originally Posted by topflightpro View Post
I have BLS straps, gloves and track bag.

I have the BLS pedal axle straps. I am not impressed with the quality. I've had them less than a year and do not use them during all my track sessions, but they are showing a ton of wear. I am not worried about them snapping on me yet, but I would expect better durability given the materials and cost.

The gloves are absolute garbage. They fit horribly. The material does not stretch at all. I do NOT recommend.

The track bag seems fine.
I saw someone at a meet recently with these abominations and couldn't believe how bad they looked to use. They genuinely looked like shiny black gardening gloves.

In terms of straps, I have a friend doing cycling shoe customisation who also does straps in batches of 10 specially made for each rider. They're made from the same materials as car seatbelts and specially selected buckles etc. They're have been tested by several international riders, no sponsorship involved...they just work:
Gallus Baffies
ruudlaff is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-18, 09:15 AM
  #5307  
topflightpro
Senior Member
 
topflightpro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,017
Mentioned: 36 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1110 Post(s)
Olympus Speed Works also offers a strap now: https://olympusspeed.com/collections...us-pedal-strap.


Originally Posted by ruudlaff View Post
I saw someone at a meet recently with these abominations and couldn't believe how bad they looked to use. They genuinely looked like shiny black gardening gloves.
Yeah, I think I used them twice and then decided it wasn't worth it. The pics online make them look great. They are not.

Last edited by topflightpro; 11-07-18 at 09:18 AM.
topflightpro is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-18, 09:23 AM
  #5308  
ruudlaff
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 152
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 69 Post(s)
Originally Posted by topflightpro View Post
Olympus Speed Works also offers a strap now: https://olympusspeed.com/collections...us-pedal-strap.
"Free replacements for life. If your straps wear out, weíll replace them for you at no charge!"

That's a bold promise with the abuse they take...
ruudlaff is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-18, 10:30 AM
  #5309  
Kaben
Member
 
Kaben's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 42
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 24 Post(s)
Originally Posted by Baby Puke View Post
These: VP-R73T - VP Components

Seriously.
Thanks babypuke - these look great - just managed to find a set that come with pedals straps and cleats for £99. Got next day delivery so hopefully they will be here before my sprint league event tomorrow evening. I know what they say about not changing anything on race day, but i think having straps will be better than riding without. Im super paranoid of pulling out now after i saw someone else do it. That said i have my ultegra pedals cranked to max retention strength and they take alot of effort to unclip from so they would probably have been fine.

Originally Posted by taras0000 View Post
Discontinued. I've been spending the last 2 months scouring the internet for some. Can't even get a pair in North America.
Taras - try brooks cycles in the UK, thats hwo i just purchased from and i think they have a few left.

Im assuming that if you use straps on pedals, pedal float doesnt matter anymore? The straps must eliminate float? Am i right in that assumption?

Originally Posted by topflightpro View Post

The gloves are absolute garbage. They fit horribly. The material does not stretch at all. I do NOT recommend.
I really really like the FOX Racing Ascent glove. Its a full goat leather palm and ridiculously grippy with great feel. The leather is very thin and has a small amount of stretch but the back of the hand is fully lycra and very comfortable. It feels as close to riding without gloves as i have ever experienced. So far they have stood up very well given the lightness of the construction.
You can find lots of different colours and the models are mostly the same apart from colour across the past few model years. i picked up some red 2016 ones at a big discount and they are identical to my mates 2018 ones in everything except colour.
Kaben is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-18, 12:39 PM
  #5310  
carleton
Elitist
Thread Starter
 
carleton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 15,252
Mentioned: 67 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1051 Post(s)
Regarding gloves:

Baseball batting gloves. In the USA there are huge selections at any big sporting goods store and are inexpensive. Golf gloves are just as good and priced similarly, but not as durable and difficult to find in L/R pairs. They are sooooo soft and the right amount of grip. I used golf gloves as my "special occasion" gloves for big events. Baseball gloves for training and weekly racing.

All of the above are better than 5Bling in terms of options, quality of leather, and availability. Plus you get to try before you buy. I do like the idea of supporting a small businessman in the cycling world, though.

I've owned 2 sets of 5Bling gloves. I've never used or handled BLS gloves.

Regarding attaching NJS straps to current generation pedals:

I've done it using small/narrow zip ties with Ultegra carbon pedals. No drilling/shaving required. I'm sure people have pics out there from others. I now have them on my road bike.

I hunted for some alloy Dura Ace PD-7810 and Ultegra (forget the model) which are PERFECT for attaching pedals. Note the metal tab in the center.





Last edited by carleton; 11-07-18 at 12:45 PM.
carleton is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-18, 12:48 PM
  #5311  
carleton
Elitist
Thread Starter
 
carleton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 15,252
Mentioned: 67 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1051 Post(s)
Put another way:

If BLS or 5Bling took some mid-tier off-the-rack baseball gloves and called them "sprinter gloves" and took some mid-tier off-the-rack golf gloves and called them "TT gloves", they could sell them for over $100/pair.

You can get those same gloves without the BLS or 5Bling logo (just a measly Nike logo) for $20-45/pair on your way home from work...AND you can try before you buy AND return them if you don't like them within 30 days
carleton is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-18, 12:50 PM
  #5312  
carleton
Elitist
Thread Starter
 
carleton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 15,252
Mentioned: 67 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1051 Post(s)
Last ramble...

Running socks have the same, if not more advanced, technology as cycling socks, with a lot more options. Also available locally for half the price.

Want some knee-high cycling socks for those brisk Saturday morning rides? Use soccer socks. $10.

Last edited by carleton; 11-07-18 at 12:54 PM.
carleton is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-18, 04:03 PM
  #5313  
wagge
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Houston
Posts: 10

Bikes: Sworks 2012, Sworks 2016 2000 Corima Cougar

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Originally Posted by carleton View Post
Put another way:

If BLS or 5Bling took some mid-tier off-the-rack baseball gloves and called them "sprinter gloves" and took some mid-tier off-the-rack golf gloves and called them "TT gloves", they could sell them for over $100/pair.

You can get those same gloves without the BLS or 5Bling logo (just a measly Nike logo) for $20-45/pair on your way home from work...AND you can try before you buy AND return them if you don't like them within 30 days
I second this opinion
wagge is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-18, 04:32 PM
  #5314  
Baby Puke
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Kanazawa
Posts: 1,369

Bikes: Marin Stelvio, Pogliaghi SL, Panasonic NJS, Dolan DF3, Intense Pro24 BMX

Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 187 Post(s)
Seconded on the baseball batting gloves. Most of the keirin pros over here use them.
Baby Puke is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-18, 09:53 PM
  #5315  
seau grateau
Senior Member
 
seau grateau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: LA
Posts: 9,222

Bikes: Shogun Selectra, Felt TK2, Ridley Fenix AL

Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1010 Post(s)
Originally Posted by carleton View Post
Last ramble...

Running socks have the same, if not more advanced, technology as cycling socks, with a lot more options. Also available locally for half the price.

Want some knee-high cycling socks for those brisk Saturday morning rides? Use soccer socks. $10.
For real. I've only ever paid for cycling socks once (and it was only because they say "**** YEAH" on them in really big letters). Most of the socks I ride in I bought at Ross or Target for around $2-$6 a pair.
seau grateau is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-18, 05:59 AM
  #5316  
Kaben
Member
 
Kaben's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 42
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 24 Post(s)
Sorry, just posting this again as may have gotten lost in my last multi quote post.

"Im assuming that if you use straps on pedals, pedal float doesnt matter anymore? The straps must eliminate float? Am i right in that assumption?"

Im asking because the VP pedals arrived today with decent double straps but a 9 degree float red Look cleat. Thats Way more than i usually use ( Shimano SPD-SL blue with 2 degrees float.).

Worried about putting these on for my race tonight and my pedals feeling all loose / sloppy compared to what im used to.
Kaben is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-18, 06:10 AM
  #5317  
Baby Puke
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Kanazawa
Posts: 1,369

Bikes: Marin Stelvio, Pogliaghi SL, Panasonic NJS, Dolan DF3, Intense Pro24 BMX

Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 187 Post(s)
You'll still feel the float. If you want to eliminate it use the fixed cleats. That's pretty weird as I've ordered two pair of the VP pedals and they both came with fixed cleats.
Baby Puke is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-18, 10:22 AM
  #5318  
carleton
Elitist
Thread Starter
 
carleton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 15,252
Mentioned: 67 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1051 Post(s)
Originally Posted by baby puke View Post
you'll still feel the float. If you want to eliminate it use the fixed cleats. That's pretty weird as i've ordered two pair of the vp pedals and they both came with fixed cleats.
+1

Also, maybe consider going to zero-float cleats. They are awesome and add to the direct feel. There are no downsides to doing so. This isn't a sprinter thing. Even pro roadies use them.

I think that float was introduced to cleats when users migrated from fixed slotted cleats (clip and strap style) which were difficult to adjust (some cleats were nailed in). The key is to dial in the position.

I've done this for years with no issues.

Last edited by carleton; 11-08-18 at 10:27 AM.
carleton is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-18, 08:46 AM
  #5319  
Kaben
Member
 
Kaben's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 42
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 24 Post(s)
I could only get hold of grey cleats in my local store In time for my race, which are 4 degree float. These werenít too bad but I will try zero float next when I have track time to practice.

I had a good time at last nights sprint league in London but I feel my position may still be too short even with my 120 stem.
Roughly how far can you put your hands in front of the front axel before it becomes a problem? Is there an agreed wisdom on this kind of thing?

The bike is primarily used for sprinting but our league puts runners up from the sprint heats into a 5 lap dash at the end of the evening for final placing, so the bike needs to still handle well enough in a group scenario. ( usually about 9-11 riders).

Kaben is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-18, 11:27 AM
  #5320  
taras0000
Senior Member
 
taras0000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: 43.2330941,-79.8022037,17
Posts: 1,566
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 256 Post(s)
Originally Posted by Kaben View Post
I could only get hold of grey cleats in my local store In time for my race, which are 4 degree float. These werenít too bad but I will try zero float next when I have track time to practice.

I had a good time at last nights sprint league in London but I feel my position may still be too short even with my 120 stem.
Roughly how far can you put your hands in front of the front axel before it becomes a problem? Is there an agreed wisdom on this kind of thing?

The bike is primarily used for sprinting but our league puts runners up from the sprint heats into a 5 lap dash at the end of the evening for final placing, so the bike needs to still handle well enough in a group scenario. ( usually about 9-11 riders).


There's no hard and fast rule on this. The front and rear axles serves as fulcrums for your weight. Your seat and bars can serve as leverage points around these fulcrums. Go too far back over the rear wheel, and you will wheelie whenever you power out on the seat. Going further forward over the front axle will add more wight here, which unweights the rear wheel (which causes skipping when out of the saddle), and makes the steering heavier. The heavier steering may not be a bad thing, as the way it works is by mitigating your steering input into the fork. You end up increasing bearing friction, which is one way it gets heavier. You also end up lengthening your input lever (stem), which requires more movement for the same rotational input at the bars. This can make a bike more stable, going back the the weight transfer, leaves you with a rear end that is more susceptible to skipping when you get out of the saddle.

Bonus info that's not required reading:
This is why sizing a bike by it's reach (new way) is more important than sizing it by it's seat tube (old way). It almost automatically takes into account a person's torso length, and bakes in the proper weight distribution by also assigning an appropriate wheelbase. You can try and fudge the wheelbase on a bike by swapping forks, but a track fork typically has 35mm offset, and most road forks are 45-50mm offset. You might get the idea that you can use a road fork to buy an extra 1-1.5cm of wheelbase, but this is not as good as it sounds. Putting a road fork on a steep headtube will decrease the trail, and this make your bike twitchier. It also introduces more steering flop into the equation. Road bikes that have slacker heat tube angles can use a fork with more offset because it negates the loss in trail. Most road and track bikes have similar trail figures, It's the head angle that makes the difference,and track bikes NEED a steeper head angle WITH a low offset fork because it minimizes steering flop (how far the contact patch moves when you turn the wheel). Road bikes can use more flop because you're turning on a flat surface, and this actually helps to lead you into a turn. The flop is also somewhat toned down by the slacker had angle. Flop isn't so great on a track where your surface is banked, and will have the effect of magnifying steering inputs, especially at slow speed (think of riding slowly on a steep track and having your front wheel move 1.5cm more than your intended bar input). Here flop will lead to a super twitchy bike
taras0000 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-18, 12:06 PM
  #5321  
Kaben
Member
 
Kaben's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 42
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 24 Post(s)
Thanks thatís an awesome outline for sizing and very helpful!

When I bought the Planet X I thought itís reach was long at 427mm for the size large (especially when compared to an xl 60cm Dolan tc1 frame has a reach of 410mm) but I guess I need to do some research on other frames to see what a standard reach is for a frame if this size. Unless of course they arenít measuring them the same way?

Regardless when I bought the bike I was unaware of what my reach needed to be - I went more by rough estimates based on my overall height rather than specif length of my torso etc.

Hopefully I can get a longer stem on the Planet X without too much negative impact. I already get a little bit of skipping when Iím really pushing on, so I dont want the skipping to get a lot worse as when it happens it can really ruin your flow.

I guess testing is the best way forward.


Last edited by Kaben; 11-09-18 at 05:15 PM. Reason: correcting mobile phone spelling
Kaben is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-18, 09:44 PM
  #5322  
taras0000
Senior Member
 
taras0000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: 43.2330941,-79.8022037,17
Posts: 1,566
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 256 Post(s)
For anyone wondering how Head Tube angle and fork offset effect trail.


Wheel flop describes how the contact patch moves forward/sideways as the bars are turned. When you lean a bike, and the fork points straight ahead, the contact patch remains in the same spot. As you turn the bars, the contact patch moves up the wheel radius, extending the wheelbase, and moving the contact patch in the direction of the lean. Because the contact patch moves up the wheel, it also causes the front end to drop. More flop has the effect of leaning a rider into a turn, and directing the contact patch that way. It acts sort of like power steering for bicycles. Because we have the banking do that for us, we want less flop, and because we want stability while riding upright on the banking, we also want less flop. "Real" track geometry has about 14-17 mm of flop in the front end. Road geo's tend to average around 20-22mm.

You can play with HTA, Fork Offset, trail and flop here:
Bicycle Trail Calculator | yojimg.net
taras0000 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-18, 01:04 PM
  #5323  
Kaben
Member
 
Kaben's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 42
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 24 Post(s)
Next question ( sorry for asking so many recently!)

I want to get a more aero helmet for use in my flying 200ís but also something that can also be used for use in the match sprints.

Lots of people reccomended that Casco Warp but it doesnít seem to be available from many places in the UK and where it is available, itís incredibly expensive.

I see a lot of Kask Bambinoís in use but Iím not a massive fan of the fit.
Have any of you used (or seen used) the giro aerohead helmet?
My thoughts are that the wide visor would give really good peripheral vision for use during match sprints etc but I am not sure if itís a bit too long? Itís slightly bigger than the Kaskís stubby profile.

Can you see any drawbacks to using a helmet like this?
Kaben is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-18, 01:45 PM
  #5324  
Kaben
Member
 
Kaben's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 42
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 24 Post(s)
I found footage of the team French sprinters using the Giro aerohead at the 2018 uci world champs so I have answered my own question. Should have checked YouTube before I posted here, sorry.
Kaben is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-18, 06:08 PM
  #5325  
topflightpro
Senior Member
 
topflightpro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,017
Mentioned: 36 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1110 Post(s)
I've seen the Aerohead used for match sprints. I've also seen the Lazer helmet - not sure which.
topflightpro is offline  
Reply With Quote

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service