Go Back  Bike Forums > The Racer's Forum > Track Cycling: Velodrome Racing and Training Area
Reload this Page >

Ask your small, random, track-related questions here

Track Cycling: Velodrome Racing and Training Area Looking to enter into the realm of track racing? Want to share your experiences and tactics for riding on a velodrome? The Track Cycling forums is for you! Come in and discuss training/racing, equipment, and current track cycling events.

Ask your small, random, track-related questions here

Old 11-28-18, 10:57 AM
  #5376  
carleton
Elitist
Thread Starter
 
carleton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 15,575
Mentioned: 82 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1205 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Originally Posted by zizou View Post
Thanks for the recommendations.

I have a friend 3d printing me a valve hole cover (like the raceware ones but with space for a couple of magnets) so hoping that will cover most of my gear changes. Will post a photo and the details if it works as intended.
I suggest that you put the speed sensor on your fork and double-side tape small, powerful magnets to the brake track of all of your front wheels, left and right sides.

This is great because the brake track is the same on all wheels and you never use brakes on the track. If you flip the wheels around, the other magnet is in place.

I've done this for years with great success.
carleton is offline  
Old 11-28-18, 11:18 AM
  #5377  
carleton
Elitist
Thread Starter
 
carleton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 15,575
Mentioned: 82 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1205 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Here are two examples from my bikes:



Note the Bontrager ANT+ sensor on the fork. You can barely see the magnet in front.





The Zipp 808 front isn't a directional wheel, so I put a magnet on both sides. The sensor is on the left fork arm. This is the right side. So, if I happen to put the wheel on in the opposite direction, there will be a magnet in place.
carleton is offline  
Old 11-28-18, 01:03 PM
  #5378  
krispenhartung
Senior Member
 
krispenhartung's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Boise, ID
Posts: 228

Bikes: S-Works Venge Dura-Ace DI2, KTM Strada 4000, Fuji Norcom Straight 1.3 (TT), Fuji Track Elite, BMC Trackmachine TR02

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 98 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 1 Post
Originally Posted by carleton View Post
I suggest that you put the speed sensor on your fork and double-side tape small, powerful magnets to the brake track of all of your front wheels, left and right sides.

This is great because the brake track is the same on all wheels and you never use brakes on the track. If you flip the wheels around, the other magnet is in place.

I've done this for years with great success.
I tried the front fork Bontrager speed sensor approach for a while, but it ended up being more of a hassle for me and seemed very precarious and unstable. The main issue I encountered was that the mount would move inward, due to many reasons (e.g., hitting it while racking the bike) and knock the magnet off the wheel (knock!)...then you have the issue of magnets on the track. This happened several times, so I just went with the Wahoo speed sensor and mounted it on my front wheel axle, because I tend not to change my front wheel in a night. The reason why I went with the fork system to begin with was because I was using a tri-spoke, which is not the case anymore. If I return to a tri-spoke, I suppose I will have to re-think things. I still like the idea of a sensor that mounts in the valve hole.
krispenhartung is offline  
Old 11-28-18, 01:31 PM
  #5379  
carleton
Elitist
Thread Starter
 
carleton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 15,575
Mentioned: 82 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1205 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Originally Posted by krispenhartung View Post
I tried the front fork Bontrager speed sensor approach for a while, but it ended up being more of a hassle for me and seemed very precarious and unstable. The main issue I encountered was that the mount would move inward, due to many reasons (e.g., hitting it while racking the bike) and knock the magnet off the wheel (knock!)...then you have the issue of magnets on the track. This happened several times, so I just went with the Wahoo speed sensor and mounted it on my front wheel axle, because I tend not to change my front wheel in a night. The reason why I went with the fork system to begin with was because I was using a tri-spoke, which is not the case anymore. If I return to a tri-spoke, I suppose I will have to re-think things. I still like the idea of a sensor that mounts in the valve hole.
Regarding the magnets falling off:
I used 3M Outdoor Double-Sided tape. It's about 2mm thick and stiffly gooey like old chewing gum. Willfully removing the magnets takes a lot of effort. I've never had one accidentally pop off, even when the sensor touches it from being too close (click-click-click-click-click-click-click) before I adjust the sensor.




Regarding the sensor moving around:
Yeah, that's the only downside to this method. One does have to be mindful when installing and removing wheels.
carleton is offline  
Old 11-28-18, 01:58 PM
  #5380  
krispenhartung
Senior Member
 
krispenhartung's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Boise, ID
Posts: 228

Bikes: S-Works Venge Dura-Ace DI2, KTM Strada 4000, Fuji Norcom Straight 1.3 (TT), Fuji Track Elite, BMC Trackmachine TR02

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 98 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 1 Post
Originally Posted by carleton View Post
Regarding the magnets falling off:
I used 3M Outdoor Double-Sided tape. It's about 2mm thick and stiffly gooey like old chewing gum. Willfully removing the magnets takes a lot of effort. I've never had one accidentally pop off, even when the sensor touches it from being too close (click-click-click-click-click-click-click) before I adjust the sensor.

Regarding the sensor moving around:
Yeah, that's the only downside to this method. One does have to be mindful when installing and removing wheels.
I tried some super sticky industrial strength double sided tape..didn't work. That's a lot of potential force from the wheel, depending on the speed, leading to contact between the magnet and the sensor. I'm not sure if anything would stop it, aside from permanently gluing the magnet to the wheel, in which case you're gong to rip the sensor off the fork or do some other form of damage. I just don't like anything that can move that easily attached to my bike and so close to moving parts.
krispenhartung is offline  
Old 11-28-18, 02:07 PM
  #5381  
krispenhartung
Senior Member
 
krispenhartung's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Boise, ID
Posts: 228

Bikes: S-Works Venge Dura-Ace DI2, KTM Strada 4000, Fuji Norcom Straight 1.3 (TT), Fuji Track Elite, BMC Trackmachine TR02

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 98 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 1 Post
Originally Posted by JuiceWillis View Post
I train exclusively on my track bike. I have rollers and a cycleops magnus smart trainer that has 3 different settings for different drop out settings. To train standing starts, I go outside on a pretty barren strip of road and run a front brake (weather permitting obviously.) I program my own workouts into trainer road and let that take care of the resistance on the trainer. I pretty much only use rollers for recovery days and some high cadence work. Since i got the smart trainer my road bike just collects dust.
That's awesome. I have a few places in my neighborhood where i can ride my track bike. Before I even got on a velodrome, I spend 2 months at a sports complex park a block away that has a giant rectangular 1K bike path in the middle of the field. It worked great and even had a slight bank on one corner, and very importantly, there was grass on the outside, so when I got too fast and road off the path, I didn't kill myself! LOL I would also use one of the long sides as a drag strip and practice standing starts, and was able to get a 300m sprint, finishing in the grass...sort of like track bike meets CX.

I was looking at the Magnus and it appears to be sold out on their site, but they have a newer M2 Smart Trainer, which looks to be the replacement of the Magnus? Same price. I like that they say right in the specs that they are compatible with 120mm.
https://www.cycleops.com/product/m2
krispenhartung is offline  
Old 11-28-18, 02:10 PM
  #5382  
carleton
Elitist
Thread Starter
 
carleton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 15,575
Mentioned: 82 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1205 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
In the event that the sensor happens to be too close to the magnet:

Was your sensor facing forward (as in my photo above)? If so, then the magnet will slide under it.

If the sensor is facing backwards, then the sensor will attempt to slide under the magnet or brute force push it off.


My method worked for years with no issues like yours. There may be one small but significant difference in implementation.
carleton is offline  
Old 11-28-18, 02:26 PM
  #5383  
krispenhartung
Senior Member
 
krispenhartung's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Boise, ID
Posts: 228

Bikes: S-Works Venge Dura-Ace DI2, KTM Strada 4000, Fuji Norcom Straight 1.3 (TT), Fuji Track Elite, BMC Trackmachine TR02

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 98 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 1 Post
Originally Posted by carleton View Post
In the event that the sensor happens to be too close to the magnet:

Was your sensor facing forward (as in my photo above)? If so, then the magnet will slide under it.

If the sensor is facing backwards, then the sensor will attempt to slide under the magnet or brute force push it off.


My method worked for years with no issues like yours. There may be one small but significant difference in implementation.
I think the style of fork makes a big difference. This was on my Fuji Track Elite and not really an issue of the magnet being too close, but of the mount being to precariously attached based on the shape of the fork. I tried attaching the mount in both ways, facing in and out...one way simply is not an option because it is angled out too far and when you attempt to side it closer, it won't stay and is even more precarious. So that left only one method....can't recall...I think it's with the magnet cover facing out. You may indeed have a fork shape that just works better with the mount, which is why you haven't experienced any issues. But after 3 knock offs, I called it quits.
krispenhartung is offline  
Old 11-28-18, 03:02 PM
  #5384  
JuiceWillis
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 140
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 47 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by krispenhartung View Post
That's awesome. I have a few places in my neighborhood where i can ride my track bike. Before I even got on a velodrome, I spend 2 months at a sports complex park a block away that has a giant rectangular 1K bike path in the middle of the field. It worked great and even had a slight bank on one corner, and very importantly, there was grass on the outside, so when I got too fast and road off the path, I didn't kill myself! LOL I would also use one of the long sides as a drag strip and practice standing starts, and was able to get a 300m sprint, finishing in the grass...sort of like track bike meets CX.

I was looking at the Magnus and it appears to be sold out on their site, but they have a newer M2 Smart Trainer, which looks to be the replacement of the Magnus? Same price. I like that they say right in the specs that they are compatible with 120mm.
https://www.cycleops.com/product/m2
Yes that looks like an updated version. All my seated interval stuff is done on it, and it has the ability to adjust to 120mm spacing. I do not have a power meter on my track bike so for dedicated intervals the smart trainer was the way to go. I did attempt standing starts on it once by adding some deck tape to the roller, but the resistance just wasnt high enough even with a 100+ gear on the bike, so all pure sprint stuff i just do outdoors now if its not freezing out.
JuiceWillis is offline  
Old 11-28-18, 03:19 PM
  #5385  
krispenhartung
Senior Member
 
krispenhartung's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Boise, ID
Posts: 228

Bikes: S-Works Venge Dura-Ace DI2, KTM Strada 4000, Fuji Norcom Straight 1.3 (TT), Fuji Track Elite, BMC Trackmachine TR02

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 98 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 1 Post
Originally Posted by JuiceWillis View Post
Yes that looks like an updated version. All my seated interval stuff is done on it, and it has the ability to adjust to 120mm spacing. I do not have a power meter on my track bike so for dedicated intervals the smart trainer was the way to go. I did attempt standing starts on it once by adding some deck tape to the roller, but the resistance just wasnt high enough even with a 100+ gear on the bike, so all pure sprint stuff i just do outdoors now if its not freezing out.
That's the beauty of my Wahoo Kickr....no wheel slipping on standing starts...I just have to use my road bike. This is where Carleton comes in with his modified Cycleops Pro 300 spin bike recommendation....still tempting. However, I'm no giant legged sprinter power house, so with my Kreitler rollers and the headwind fan resistance unit, fork stand, and fly wheel, I can easily get to the resistance I need for a standing start simulation. It's just a really space hogging contraption.
krispenhartung is offline  
Old 11-29-18, 03:38 AM
  #5386  
zizou
Senior Member
 
zizou's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 133
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 21 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by carleton View Post
Here are two examples from my bikes:



The Zipp 808 front isn't a directional wheel, so I put a magnet on both sides. The sensor is on the left fork arm. This is the right side. So, if I happen to put the wheel on in the opposite direction, there will be a magnet in place.
Very nice set up!
zizou is offline  
Old 12-08-18, 02:57 AM
  #5387  
Huskey
Great at turning left
 
Huskey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Australia
Posts: 73

Bikes: BT Stealth

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 23 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Anyone have a picture of the perkins/perko 33cm carbon sprint bars. They look like a narrower version of the bt sprint bars. Can't for the life of me find a picture of them online.
Huskey is offline  
Old 12-08-18, 09:57 AM
  #5388  
taras0000
Senior Member
 
taras0000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: 43.2330941,-79.8022037,17
Posts: 1,674
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 305 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Interesting finds around the web

But these are on Glaetzer's bike. I don't think Perkins ever rode anything that was SUPER narrow, at least not before the Brits went super narrow.
taras0000 is offline  
Old 12-08-18, 11:33 AM
  #5389  
Huskey
Great at turning left
 
Huskey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Australia
Posts: 73

Bikes: BT Stealth

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 23 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
So I don't believe they were ever really used by Shane Perkins, but believe they were made by someone called Perkins. Possibly related?
Huskey is offline  
Old 12-08-18, 03:42 PM
  #5390  
Dalai
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 2,137
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 83 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Huskey View Post
So I don't believe they were ever really used by Shane Perkins, but believe they were made by someone called Perkins. Possibly related?
It's Shane's father Darryl who is extremely well known here and well regarded for his hand made Perkin track frames.

Last edited by Dalai; 12-08-18 at 03:46 PM.
Dalai is offline  
Old 12-08-18, 11:24 PM
  #5391  
brawlo
Senior Member
 
brawlo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,018
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 215 Post(s)
Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Originally Posted by Huskey View Post
Anyone have a picture of the perkins/perko 33cm carbon sprint bars. They look like a narrower version of the bt sprint bars. Can't for the life of me find a picture of them online.
Search the FB Trackcycling Marketplace group if youíre on it. A set came up for sale early this year or last year. The ad may still be there
brawlo is offline  
Old 12-09-18, 12:05 AM
  #5392  
Huskey
Great at turning left
 
Huskey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Australia
Posts: 73

Bikes: BT Stealth

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 23 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I've searched the group's I'm in before and haven't found anything, but I just searched for any other groups I may have missed and an ad came up from late 2015, but only when I searched "Perkin" and not "Perkins" or "Perko" even though those are the words used in the ad.

anyway I have found pictures now. Many thanks!!
Huskey is offline  
Old 12-09-18, 07:29 PM
  #5393  
pierrej
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 119
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 58 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Huskey View Post
I've searched the group's I'm in before and haven't found anything, but I just searched for any other groups I may have missed and an ad came up from late 2015, but only when I searched "Perkin" and not "Perkins" or "Perko" even though those are the words used in the ad.

anyway I have found pictures now. Many thanks!!
The few people I've talked to that used them have said they were the best bars they've ever used, effectively aero alpinas in regards to dimensions.
I'll try and see how you can get a pair next time I'm out, but from memory there's not that many around
pierrej is offline  
Old 12-12-18, 03:28 PM
  #5394  
Kaben
Senior Member
 
Kaben's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 94
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 57 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts


Hi all,

im investigating new frames as the reach on my current bike is not really long enough. Iím already on a 140 stem and Iím still not able to get the position I want.

so looking around at many manufacturers Iím seeing a lot of the top tier frames have quite short reach numbers. The brand S1NEO caught my eye - seems like a lot of bike for the money and has Francois Pervis name attached to the design.

Anyway, look at the attached geometry table. How can their XL frame have such an impossibly short reach? Am I missing something? It doesnít look like the bike has a bayonet fork so shouldnít be an offset stem or anything.

Im new to interpreting geometry tables so I might be misunderstanding this but does this bike really have a super short reach?

similar sized look 875 has a reach of 460mm by comparison.
Kaben is offline  
Old 12-12-18, 05:12 PM
  #5395  
taras0000
Senior Member
 
taras0000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: 43.2330941,-79.8022037,17
Posts: 1,674
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 305 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by Huskey View Post
I've searched the group's I'm in before and haven't found anything, but I just searched for any other groups I may have missed and an ad came up from late 2015, but only when I searched "Perkin" and not "Perkins" or "Perko" even though those are the words used in the ad.

anyway I have found pictures now. Many thanks!!
I'm curious as to these handlebars, I can''t seem to find a picture of anything "Perkins", "Perkin", or "Perko".
taras0000 is offline  
Old 12-12-18, 10:03 PM
  #5396  
Minion1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 548
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Kaben View Post

The brand S1NEO caught my eye - seems like a lot of bike for the money and has Francois Pervis name attached to the design.

Anyway, look at the attached geometry table. How can their XL frame have such an impossibly short reach? Am I missing something? It doesnít look like the bike has a bayonet fork so shouldnít be an offset stem or anything.

Im new to interpreting geometry tables so I might be misunderstanding this but does this bike really have a super short reach?

My guess is it's going to be in the seat tube and head tube angles for the Sineo - most track frames are 74 deg seat tube, head tube angle depends on the size of the bike a bit. The Sineo has a 75 degree seat tube, and there is a rule of thumb that one degree change in STA or HTA equals one centimetre of reach, so that would (artificially) add to the reach number listed. Also, with a slacker seat tube angle, as the saddle goes up, compared to a bike with a steeper STA, your saddle gets further away from the bars by comparison so that helps lengthen the bike too - they are things that don't really show up on the frame's dimension drawings.

I'm not sure how the head tube angle influences things, perhaps someone more astute with maths could fill that one in.

I have an older Ridley Oval, which is really weird geo wise. I'm 182cm, and the bike has a 54cm top tube, 170mm head tube, and the highest standover of any of my bikes (normally 57-58cm) BUT the bike has a crazy steep head tube, and a 75.5 degree seat tube - with a set back post, it has the same saddle to handlebar distance as my other bikes. I do have a fair bit of seat post out, which puts me further back and increases the effective reach.

My weight is balanced when I'm riding, and because of the weird angles the wheelbase is nice and tight, but the reach number for that frame is about 389 , whereas the reach for my other bikes is comfortably over 410. If I'd measured the bike before I bought it, instead of just test riding it, I might have gone down a different path, especially since I also have a 140mm stem and Nitto B123s on there, and it is *nearly* long enough.

I am looking around for a new bike (who isn't right?) and I would much rather be on a more standard geometry bike, partly for a bit more adjustability, but partly for a more sensible standover and shorter head tube. Its been a good bike so far, really it's been good enough for me to wring myself out in the middle of the pack which is about the limits to my racing, but that's my 2 cents. I have no idea why they designed the bike the way they did.
Minion1 is offline  
Old 12-12-18, 10:57 PM
  #5397  
Huskey
Great at turning left
 
Huskey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Australia
Posts: 73

Bikes: BT Stealth

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 23 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts

The Perkins sprint bars
Huskey is offline  
Old 12-12-18, 10:57 PM
  #5398  
Huskey
Great at turning left
 
Huskey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Australia
Posts: 73

Bikes: BT Stealth

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 23 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Huskey is offline  
Old 12-12-18, 11:50 PM
  #5399  
carleton
Elitist
Thread Starter
 
carleton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 15,575
Mentioned: 82 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1205 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
If I didn't know any better, I'd say that those are BT sprint bars:

Specifications.
36CM C-C ( one size available)
148mm Drop
95mm Reach
Grip diameter 26mm
31.8mm clamp diameter
Weight 350grams.
http://www.biketechnologies.com/bt-sprint-2/





You can see them in use here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRvnGsPF7k0
carleton is offline  
Old 12-12-18, 11:56 PM
  #5400  
carleton
Elitist
Thread Starter
 
carleton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 15,575
Mentioned: 82 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1205 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
The S1NEO looks to be a generic road TT frame repurposed as a "track" bike.

75 degree seat tube angle and 72 degree head tube angle are angles for use with aerobars. Period.

I've never seen Pervis ride one outside of an ad. Come to think of it, I've only seen him standing next to one.

I'd pass on it.
carleton is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.