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Old 11-16-14, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Velocirapture
Thanks for the responses thus far.
I'm specifically interested in the effects of NO, either as a direct supplement or via the precursor, Argenine... but probably better to ask in the weightlifting thread, thanks Minion1
Its my understanding that N.O. supplements are not that effective.

I don't think i have ever used an N.O. supplement- but i have used Cannibal Permaswole- which uses Citruline Malate, which is actually supposed to have benefits beyond Argenines cell volume effects, and i felt no beneficial results... also the no nonsense manufacture of the product even included in their original pitch of the product that they didn't think there were any athletic benefits, but some people liked the "Pumped Feel"- so this was a quality product..
Cannibal Permaswole - the Best Preworkout without stimulants

I also tried A-AKG... same type of supplement... it didn't do much for me.. I have zero tolerance for supplements that make me feel weird during training and i think i dropped it because of that- and no apparent benefits..

Im not sure if this is a legitimate study:
https://www.consumerlab.com/news/do-...rk/11_14_2011/
but it does say what I've heard other places...
N.O. supplements may show athletic enhancement in "untrained athletes" but probably don't do much for the well trained..

at this point it seams that the only well tested and worthwhile supplements are Creatine and Beta Alanine...
i can't take the side effects of BA so i don't bother with it..
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Old 11-16-14, 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Owen21
Does anybody do any sprinting of the running form to supplement their training? Or is it not transferable?
I sometimes do 10-15mins of interval running (up to 12mph) after a gym session, but find I get more DOMS than it is worth, and don't think it is transferable much. I do it mostly just to change things up, get off the bike/weights.

I think there is still a lot of the same muscle groups, especially based on the size of sprinter's butts, I just have never seen any coaches or training material suggest it as complimentary enough to be worth tiring your legs (as in, you are better just sprint on the bike!)
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Old 11-16-14, 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by gtrob
I sometimes do 10-15mins of interval running (up to 12mph) after a gym session, but find I get more DOMS than it is worth, and don't think it is transferable much. I do it mostly just to change things up, get off the bike/weights.

I think there is still a lot of the same muscle groups, especially based on the size of sprinter's butts, I just have never seen any coaches or training material suggest it as complimentary enough to be worth tiring your legs (as in, you are better just sprint on the bike!)
One major muscle group that is the source of a major imbalance between cycling sprinters and foot sprinters is the hip flexors. There are lots of stories of cyclists who go to sprint and pull a hip flexor. Those instrumental in running, but supplemental in cycling.
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Old 11-17-14, 08:50 AM
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One thing I seem to never learn, is fitness in one sport, can easily get you into trouble in another. I bet I could run a fast mile now than I used to when I used to run long distance, but I also bet I would be in a lot of pain. Same with weights, if you start as strong as you already are, its going to hurt.
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Old 11-17-14, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by gtrob
I sometimes do 10-15mins of interval running (up to 12mph) after a gym session, but find I get more DOMS than it is worth, and don't think it is transferable much. I do it mostly just to change things up, get off the bike/weights.

I think there is still a lot of the same muscle groups, especially based on the size of sprinter's butts, I just have never seen any coaches or training material suggest it as complimentary enough to be worth tiring your legs (as in, you are better just sprint on the bike!)
I saw a video where keirin school students were doing something similar. I think it was stair sprints or something like that.
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Old 11-17-14, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
I saw a video where keirin school students were doing something similar. I think it was stair sprints or something like that.
I've seen that but also when I asked someone in the know they said that they don't run past the first stage of their training. They said it was more for the bootcamp effect than actually training carry over.
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Old 11-17-14, 11:59 AM
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Stairs are a good option if stuck in a hotel or cruise ship. Run up 5-10 flights then walk down is a reasonable interval workout that seems to carry over better than normal running for me.
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Old 11-17-14, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by carleton

As far as your second question goes:

That is too broad. This isn't the fixed-gear forum. You should ask over there: Singlespeed & Fixed Gear
I guess I worded my question poorly. sorry! I meant- how do those frames (cinelli, allcity, leader) stand up in the velodrome for racing. Is an 800 dollar cinelli going to make as much sense as a 500 dollar planet x?
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Old 11-17-14, 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by WhatsYoCadence
I guess I worded my question poorly. sorry! I meant- how do those frames (cinelli, allcity, leader) stand up in the velodrome for racing. Is an 800 dollar cinelli going to make as much sense as a 500 dollar planet x?
Carleton has already responded politely about this question being excessively broad. You mention three brands, not even models and request a comparison.

A quick scan of the front page of the track racing sub-forum contains not less than 6 threads on first or beginners frames. Start by reading those. Maybe do an advanced search of this forum on the same subject matter. This has been covered repeatedly over the last couple years and things change very slowly in the area of track frames.

The basic advice you're going to recieve is that as long as it has a suitably high BB, a head angle to match it's fork offset and fits you, as a beginner, frame choice is not going to determine your competitiveness on the track.

What more specific questions do you have between specifici models or feautes thereof?
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Old 11-17-14, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by WhatsYoCadence
I guess I worded my question poorly. sorry! I meant- how do those frames (cinelli, allcity, leader) stand up in the velodrome for racing. Is an 800 dollar cinelli going to make as much sense as a 500 dollar planet x?
Let's start with a different question: Why do you want to know?

I'm not trying to be rude. Are you looking to buy a new frame? Are you trying to settle an argument? Are you learning about bike geometry and want to know the differences?
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Old 11-17-14, 08:42 PM
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Perhaps he is asking how generally 'street fixie' brands do at track racing?

If so there is nothing massively different about a track bike. Horizontal drops on a street fixie tend to be a little short since people dont change gears much, and can be a problem. For regular recreation riding at the track they would all do the job I am sure.
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Old 11-18-14, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by carleton
Let's start with a different question: Why do you want to know??
I'm just curious about their reps from actual track racers who's main priority is stiffness and not weight.

Originally Posted by gtrob
Perhaps he is asking how generally 'street fixie' brands do at track racing?
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Old 11-18-14, 10:24 AM
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So, what makes your question hard to answer is that you're not asking about specific frames, but a class of frames sorted more by company culture than by anything about the frames.

Anyway, I know some people who race at a fairly high level and are very happy with whatever frame Cinelli has been making recently. Quite stiff, with an oversized lower head tube race that makes the front-end handling very precise. Decent sprint-capable all-around bike, for sure.

I also know some people who are pretty happy with the All-City Thunderdome. I think that there are some ways in which the geometry is wonky.

Leaders - I don't know what they offer these days. I associate them with cheap $100 Taiwan catalogue frames, and aerospokes, and I've never seen one raced seriously.

Anyway I guess it boils down to "it varies, and it depends."
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Old 11-18-14, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by queerpunk
Leaders - I don't know what they offer these days. I associate them with cheap $100 Taiwan catalogue frames, and aerospokes, and I've never seen one raced seriously.
I rode a Leader while I was waiting for my Tiemeyer.
I ended up riding an Encino 200m PR on that frame. I didn't beat that PR during the year I rode the Tiemeyer and finally went faster this year on my DF3.

I ended up giving the frame to a local Junior- who won a National Championship on it..

That said the leader is a piece of crap.. My point was it really doesn't matter what you ride!!!!

i bought the cheap all aluminum fork for the leader- the shop that cut the steer tube said it was the heaviest they had ever seen! It resulted in the stiffest front end I have ever felt on a bike..
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Old 11-19-14, 03:35 PM
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What makes a town or a city decide to build a velodrome? My hometown has one of the biggest cycling clubs in new england. Tons of winning racers (cross, road, mtb..) but we don't have a velodrome anywhere near us. If a town deserved one, it's this one. Any ideas?
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Old 11-19-14, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by WhatsYoCadence
What makes a town or a city decide to build a velodrome? My hometown has one of the biggest cycling clubs in new england. Tons of winning racers (cross, road, mtb..) but we don't have a velodrome anywhere near us. If a town deserved one, it's this one. Any ideas?
Interest + Possible Return on Investment + Cheap Land + Cheap Labor + Lots of up-front funding + a project champion that's willing to do the political paper work = you get a velodrome
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Old 11-27-14, 11:08 PM
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Power meter question...
So i have the chance to spend up to £1000 on a power meter. I have a cheapish road bike which i do most of my on the bike training on, & a Hoy Firenzuola 002 track bike which i will be racing on and doing some training with (less so than the road bike due to not living near a track as such).

Ideally id like a power meter where i can swap it from bike to bike if needs be - so that narrows it down to pedal based or crank based. The problem is my chainsets/BB's are different brands (FSA and dura ace) so a crank based one isnt so easy either.

Pedals seem the obvious choice for now but i got slightly put off when someone mentioned theyre more likely to become damaged if i was to crash (bare in mind i wouldnt be racing the track with the PM on but obviously could still crash training on the road or track). plus it would be the PM which takes the reading from only 1 pedal, and are they reliable?

So a couple of things:
- would it be worth changing my road bike to a shimano set up so i can transfer a crank based PM?
- Are the pedal based power meters any good?
- Or should i just get one (crank OR pedal) for my road bike as thats where i do most of my training?
- What would you do? lol
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Old 11-28-14, 04:35 AM
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Just to confirm - you want to potentially change your BB on the road bike to Shimano Octalink so you can use the same crank power meter across the road bike and Hoy? Remember the Dura ace cranks on the track bike use the older Octalink BB design. If that is what you mean then...

1. Though Stages wouldn't be my first choice, you could purchase the Stages 7710 track arm same length as that on the Hoy and then hunt down an old Octalink crank of the same length plus new Octalink road BB for the road bike and swap the arm across bikes. Although the Octalink road crank will be most likely 8 or 9 speed compatible it will be fine with a 10 speed chain.

2. Compact Road PM with adapter plate - Track Parts-ADAPTOR. Chainline won't be perfect fitted on the track bike but a number of people use the adapter on a road PM. Would need to confirm the BB shell size on the road bike, expecting it will be most likely 68mm English thread so could find a BB to use on both bikes. Also ideally a unit such as a Quarq or SRM which you can self calculate the slope using a 20kg weight, as I expect it will differ between the road rings and adapter plate.

3. Standard Road PM using 130 BCD track chain rings. Chainline again won't be perfect fitted on the track bike.

4. Track SRM - Octalink BB on both bikes but not recommended in the UK as the track SRM isn't waterproof so would die quickly in your wet weather.

5. Trawl the forums and ebay for used SRM's. There was an older wired Track SRM for £400 on Timetrialling Forum a little while ago, which would leave £600 for a road Power meter... All my SRM's have been bought second hand, and of all the units bought only one has finally had a non fixable issue where the chainring bolt hole has cracked on a road FSA wired unit. Otherwise they have all been dependable even though used.

If in the end it is too difficult and you will only fit on the one bike, fit it to the road bike. As much as I like having power on most of my bikes, on the track is where I find it the least valuable (not saying having power on the track bike isn't useful, I find just not as useful as on the road bike).

Last edited by Dalai; 11-28-14 at 04:23 PM.
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Old 11-28-14, 05:10 AM
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Well, I'd be inclined to do it once, do it right. Decide which bike you spend more time on and get the PM for that one. For a lot of people that will make the road bike the most sensible place to spend the money for a pm.

WRT changing the cranks so that everything matches, if you have DA track cranks on your track bike, so it's probably octalink which means if you want to use the same crank on your road bike, you'll have to find a 9 speed crank to use. Also, if you have an FSA crank on your road bike, it's quite likely to be BB30, I don't know of any adapter that lets you use a threaded Octalink BB in a frame with a BB30 crankset. I'm not even sure if the q factor will be consistent, of if you want to use the same length crank on both.

Stages do cranks for both FSA and DA track, they're single sided, and might be worth considering. Garmin would also be really good, interchangable, and you can buy replacement cases for the vectors if you stack em.

Personally I'd go for a stages on the road, save some pennies if I still thought I needed a track PM, then look at either a used SRM or a stages for track. The accuracy won't be as wildly over the top, but so long as they're consistent in their measurement, you can track the efficiency of your training and progress which is what you really want. I'd also steer away from using the Garmins on the track, in case I fell foul of a particularly officious commissaire.

Anecdotally, a couple of people I know have ditched double sided PMs, given the balance between legs would be 49/51% most of the time, so the cheaper options are as effective for a lot of folks as the more expensive ones.
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Old 11-28-14, 05:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Minion1
if you have an FSA crank on your road bike, it's quite likely to be BB30
Plenty of FSA cranks were made for 68mm english threaded BB's...

Last edited by Dalai; 11-28-14 at 07:01 PM.
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Old 11-28-14, 09:15 AM
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Owen I went through exactly what you are earlier this year. I wanted a PM on my TT bike in the summer, and my track bike in the winter. How do I do it (I also ran different crank lengths to make it worse!)

The pedals sound like a good option, but they are not just swappable. They have specific torques and calibrations every time you move them and a real pain to deal with. They constantly break, and cost a fortune still. I would not recommend them at all.

You CAN run a compact crank on a track bike and maybe get a pretty good chain line (I tried it and was able to on a cervelo). Then look at something like stages on an FSA crank (BB adapters might help). I think all you have to do is hard reset the arm when you move it.

Power2Max with crank and BB ran me 1400cnd this week, which is well under your budget. Same idea is SRM.

powertap wheels are getting cheaper all the time, but then you are using the same wheel for training and racing, and wont work on the road unless you are also fixed there.


Otherwise, in my opinion...just pick one and ride it. Ive seen used powertap road wheels go dirt cheap, I'd suggest just getting that for the road and get a proper set up on your track bike.
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Old 11-28-14, 09:56 AM
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First off...
If I am remembering correctly you are new to the track?
you do not need a Powermeter!
honestly they offer very little to track racers- especially sprinters... You can do everything you need with a cheap speedo and a stop watch..
My best kilo year was before I had a Powermeter..

Ive gone all in on power now- and I just don't think you get what you think out of it..

Assuming that you won't take my advice....

firat at buy a Powertap meter for your road bike.
They work well and are now very reasonable. I'm assuming you won't race road- so you won't have the issues with swapping wheels like roadies do.

2nd- add a DA stages to your track bike down the road..

Honestly, based on the frame you are riding it is not how id spend the money..
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Old 11-28-14, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Owen21
Power meter question...
So i have the chance to spend up to £1000 on a power meter. I have a cheapish road bike which i do most of my on the bike training on, & a Hoy Firenzuola 002 track bike which i will be racing on and doing some training with (less so than the road bike due to not living near a track as such).

Ideally id like a power meter where i can swap it from bike to bike if needs be - so that narrows it down to pedal based or crank based. The problem is my chainsets/BB's are different brands (FSA and dura ace) so a crank based one isnt so easy either.

Pedals seem the obvious choice for now but i got slightly put off when someone mentioned theyre more likely to become damaged if i was to crash (bare in mind i wouldnt be racing the track with the PM on but obviously could still crash training on the road or track). plus it would be the PM which takes the reading from only 1 pedal, and are they reliable?

So a couple of things:
- would it be worth changing my road bike to a shimano set up so i can transfer a crank based PM?
- Are the pedal based power meters any good?
- Or should i just get one (crank OR pedal) for my road bike as thats where i do most of my training?
- What would you do? lol
What would I do?

Being that you won't do much work at the track, I'd buy the kit for the road bike and do to lion's share of my work with that.
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Old 11-28-14, 05:45 PM
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True, but a lot of bikes sold these days by companies that want to make BB30 frames use FSA cranks instead of Shimano, who don't make one - I'm just guessing the bike's reasonably new and from one of the larger companies...
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Old 12-02-14, 10:58 AM
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So.. I'm in the market for a track helmet. Should I go for a Giro Air Attack Shield, or a Casco Warp? Or something else?

I'll use it half on the track and half in the park doing laps.
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