carleton

THANK YOU SO MUCH for suggesting these. I've never heard of them but the clinchers support high pressures. I'll see about getting some.

JimiMimni

Aren't we passed the "labels don't grip" phase of tire production? If that were the case you wouldn't be able to rail right hand turns on a road bike, since you would lay it over on the label.

I still mount track tubs as you describe for tradition's sake, but c'mon. I'm looking at my Vittorias, a high-label-placement tire, and they're just a light coating of paint over the rubber. Point being, the label isn't a different material, and therefore shouldn't have any difference in grip properties.

carleton

I'm not doubting you. But, so you are saying that they labels are the same rubber as the rest of the thread of the tire? Or is it paint with a clear layer of sticky on top?

I don't have any nice tubular tires on hand right now to test. Just training class tires.

bitingduck

Wider tires (or larger diameter wheels) with all else held the same will have less rolling resistance even on a smooth surface because the tire has to flex less. The flexing of the contact patch is where your rolling resistance comes from. Train wheels are the extreme example - they essentially don't flex at all and have extremely low rolling resistance, but they need flanges to stay on the tracks.

carleton

Would you suggest that a rider of my ...um... stature, try 25mm tires on the track?

queerpunk

Question wasn't directed at me, but, on your track? God yes.

carleton

hahahaha I'm willing to try them, but this is a $150 experiment. How do they feel in tight turns at high speeds?

queerpunk

Ask Chad. I can't answer. I'm 135lbs and ride on smooth tracks.

theblackbullet

At DLV my training tires are 23mm on a 23mm inside width rim. They measure closer to 26mm outside width when mounted. I generally race them at 100-110 psi and have no issues with flex whatsoever. This is what I raced at the last pro race. My race wheels which get used 4 maybe 5 times a year I run whatever tubular I get a good deal on (except gatorskins, worst tubular money can buy IMO) generally 22-23mm width. But my race wheels are also narrow so idk.

The wheels I race on the road are a fat tubular 24.5mm outside width with a 25mm maxxis tubular tire. I'd choose their foot print on any concrete track I've ever raced on especially DLV. I love the feel of them. They roll fast, and the grip is incredible.

carleton

I'm concerned about the bigger/taller 25mm tire being flexy in the tight turns at high speeds with lots of weight on them.

I was hoping someone would say, "No, they don't flex and feel great." or "Yeah, they flex more than 23mm".

These tires aren't designed for track racing, so it's a gamble for me until I get some feedback...or buy a set and try.

theblackbullet

"No, they don't flex and feel great."

when paired with a wide rim.


less flex and feel better than 23mm on 19mm rim.

carleton

Awesome. Thanks!

[looks at my clincher rims that aren't wide] Crap.

1incpa

I just changed out my clincher warm up wheels from 23's to 25's. I used Vittoria tires, rated for a max of 145psi. I definitely don't feel any difference as far as flex in the turns with the wider tire. They are mounted on fairly narrow rims, too. If my race wheels had wider rims, I'd go with 25's on them. BTW, I weigh around 185lbs.
Hope this helps,
PI

bitingduck

If they're reasonably comparable pressure and reasonably round, it's probably worth a shot. If they're 35 psi mtb tires you're not going to benefit. If you can borrow a set or know someone who has them you might be able to do experiments with pumping them up, putting some known fairly heavy weight on the axle, and then measuring deflection.

JimiMimni

For sure just a little paint over the rubber. The badges have worn completely off (same on my road tires!) where they meet the road. Of note, it really only takes one crit to start debadging the road tires, so there can't be much in the way of lost grip there.

For what it's worth, one of my buddies out here has a set of ENVE SES 7.8 wheels that he's running with 25s, because the rims are too freaking wide for anything "normal" track sized. He has no complaints and races them almost every week. Granted, 170lbs of enduro racer, not a proper sprinter.

GMJ

Just found this thread.

I'll be looking back and seeing what I can find. In the mean time, I want to see if anyone has had the same experiences as me. I have some 22mm Pista Evo CS's glued to older Zipp 808's. They've been amazing so far but I've ran into trouble. I've been using Zipp valve extenders and had a buddy of mine glue the tires. One night I noticed that I couldn't inflate any air into them. Figured that I was running them high already, I would just check back later after they deflated.

Nope. Empty and nothing going through. Brought them into a shop and a guy said the valve had screwed itself shut and that he has had problems with these things, specifically, Vittoria valves. This was definitely the case and I didn't even bother him to check the other since it had to be the same thing. I found a triathlon forum where a guy made this little tool out of spoke. Thinking about trying that.



A few questions:

1. Is it safe to reglue them? The cotton casing is what concerns me and I don't want to put anyone else in danger.

2. Does using a different valve core or extender mitigate this problem?

3. What should I do differently?

bitingduck

If the base tape is still secure on the casing, it's probably fine to reglue them. You could probably even reglue the base tape if it's peeling a little. As long as the casing isn't frayed, it's probably not that different than a 1 time glued tire. That's sort of the standard tubular spare on the road - an old tubular you haven't worn all the tread off of, but changed out, and it still has glue on the base tape. *Way* back in grad school I actually repaired a puncture in a tubular once and sewed it back up and reglued it. A lot of work and not worth the trouble other than to say I'd done it.

Different (probably larger inner diameter) extenders might help - I used the Evo Pistas a lot (3-4 sets/year) when I was racing and have had my GF on vittorias on the road and have never run into that problem. I always used an extender that went over the core, but you can also install extenders that move the core up (I've been using them lately). I don't have any of the Evo Pistas around, but some Vittoria road tubulars I have right now have the core screwed in from the back side of the valve assembly. The tube screws onto a little fitting on the tube and you can unscrew the whole valve assembly (be careful, because you can also rip the tube while screwing/unscrewing the valve). Then you can install an extender in between the tube and the original valve assembly. In tubes where the valve core unscrews from the top of the assembly, you can do the same thing by removing the core and screwing the extender into the open metal tube, then installing the core into the extender. This puts the nut on top of the core up where you can always reach it.

EDIT to add a picture showing the disassembled valve and the extender installed on another valve assembly. The little nipple sticking out of the tubular is the same thread and gasket as on the cores that other manufacturers use, so you can do the same thing on other tires by removing the core and inserting the same extender, but the other way around.

bitingduck

Here's the same valve extender used in a tubular where the core comes out from the top. It turns out that that tire is also a Vittoria, so Vittoria uses both arrangements. Conti uses this arrangement on all the tubulars I have laying around.

Divebrian

Tires for LA/StubHub Sports Center/Carson or whatever it may be called this week. Just before Masters Nationals at Rock Hill, I put a set of new Pista EVO CS's on my race wheels. The wheels were carried to the track in a wheel bag, put on the bike and then used for 2-3 laps with a jump or two to make sure everything was good and then used in a 500 m TT and put back in the wheel bag. They were then used for 2-3 more laps with a jump or two to make sure everything was good and then 10 sprint heats and put back in the wheel bag. These are not worn out training tires. I'm going to Worlds in a couple of months in LA and would like to know if these tires are suitable for the track there? I have never been on a wood track, so I have no experience there. I know track surfaces vary from wood track to wood track and some are very, very slick. Are a newer set of EVO CS's an acceptable tire for LA or do I need a different tread? They have a fine diamond pattern on the tread and I know the EVO's come in a slick tread with no diamond pattern as well. I'm just going for the fun and experience this year with plans to go for results next year, so I don't need the absolute best tire possible, but also want to make sure that my current tires are suitable as I want to have a good, fun experience....not sliding down the track.

sarals 

@Divebrian, I can give you my relatively noob impression of the tires I use at (today I'll call it) VSC. I've done all of my sessions on Conti Sprinters. My training wheels have 25MM tires (no, I don't care to get into the 25MM vs. everything else discussion, for me, they've been fine), and I have a 19MM on the front and 23MM on the rear on my race wheels. I have Vittoria EVO's on hand to put on my race wheels for Worlds, but honestly, I haven't had any issues with the Conti's. VSC is reputed to be slippery, yes, and I have had some "sqeaks" when getting slow at and above the stayers line, but not a slip. I clean my tires with alcohol before I ride, and I've seen some people take fine sandpaper to their tires as an added measure. Noob speaking again, but I think the keys are to 1) keep your speed up, and 2) make no abrupt moves with the handlebars if you are riding at a marginal speed on the banking.

rustymongrel

I've seen a number of folks use the CS tread on the wood track in milton with no issues. I have the CL on my race wheels but use/have used corsa CX, conti competitions, sprinters and other road tires for training without problems as well.

Brian Ratliff

You should have no problem. I was at Carson a few weeks ago for Nats. I was riding EVO CS on my race wheels and my normal Tufo road tires on my spare/warmup wheelset. Both worked fine and I had no problem staying on the track.

I did notice some things though. First, the tires tend to "squeak" when going through the banking at slowish speed. This is the tire scrubbing a bit, something I think all tires do on all tracks at slow speed, but it makes noise on a wooden track. Second, using an alcohol wipedown of the tire before going onto the track, especially after riding aluminum rollers, keeps the squeaking to a minimum and seems to improve grip.

I did see a couple people sliding off the track. Once on a training session, and twice actually during women's sprints. I think this is just technique. Keep your front wheel weighted and keep your speed above traction speed.

I was told traction speed at Carson is 16mph and the banking is closer to 48 degrees rather than a more normal 43 or 45 for a 250m track. Personally, I had no issues with it.

sarals 

I did the PCC Sprint Clinic this past Saturday at VSC, and in my second match, the rider I was riding against lost his front wheel in turn 3. We weren't going very fast, around 16 or 17 (I was, anyway). He was above the sprinters line, and had made an abrupt "jink" with his handlebars, and down he went. Three people went down over the length of the session, and all did it for the same reason - too slow to make the kind of move they did. What kind of tires did they have? I don't know.

By the way, I misspoke. The 25MM tires on my training wheels are Tufos. They've been just fine! They're great at Hellyer, and they've been a non-issue at VSC.

Divebrian

Thanks guys...one less thing to worry about.

rensho3

Divebrain, those are the tires that I rode at Rock Hill, and continue to ride on VSC. Unless they experienced some damage from Rock Hill, they will work just fine.