You may feel rather crappy for a few weeks. 5x5 ran me into the ground pretty hard after about 7-8 weeks of my first cycle. My hips were beat to hell, my lower back got pumped quickly, right knee hurt, shoulders got a bit sore, etc.
Eat well, rest well, and keep up as long as you can.

If you aren't riding a ton right now, you should do alright.

Bmontgomery sort of covered it.. but ill get into it a bit more..

first off- drop the 5x5!
5x5 is a great way for a novice lifter, especially one not genetically pre-disposed to strength gains (yes- you Enduros!) to get some volume early in a strength progrm, without the weight progressing so fast as it does in a 3x5 program with linear progression (adding weight every workout, across all sets)

I currently do 1 day of 5x5 as part of The Texas Method (intermediate program) and i can tell you that a properly executed 5x5 at a heavy weight is a Mother Facker!

so- id switch to 3x5...

as for the adaption. There is a period early in weight training, especially when combined with cycling, where the fatigue seams too much. If you can ride through this phase, you will likely adapt and find 2 things: first- you will not feel nearly as worked after a while as you did.. you just get better at recovering from weights, and they affect the bike less.. second- you will find that even on the days that you feel really fatigued, you dont lose much performance.. i was assured by my coach this was the case- and sure enough he was right..
to me- that is one of the great mental aspects of weights that makes you- the lifter- So Fricking Awesome- the knowledge that you crush no matter how you feel. ;)

one last piece of this puzzle is how critical roller work is for the lifting cyclist.. it helps adapt the lifting into bike strength.. and it helps with recovery. try it- youll like it

Currently 265...
Hell on down hills!
but also hell on equipment.

About to start training for a 200k 4/12... I'm cool with the distance, it's the 6800 feet of climb.

HSPL (Hammer Strength Plate loaded)
V-squat Hammer Strengths squat machine. It has a yoke with a back board. Sort of loads the weight half way between a back and front squat.

I don't have access to a cage, just one of those racks with safety bars. I didn't feel comfortable going over 550 free.

Also I use straps over 315 on deads. I have a lot of bunch scar tissue in the forearms from a motorcycle crash, nothing that shows, but the ligaments/tendons aren't what they should be.

DAMN NICE!
Front squats are rough, great for the quads!

Tell us about your programming. Are you lifting to lift or are you setting yourself up for the race season? It doesn't matter either way. I can totally understand if you are lifting to lift being that the race season in Colorado is so short and you may have other activities/goals than track racing.

thanks bmont and quinn.

quinn, when you say linear progression, i assume you mean that each set, the weight goes up, and each workout, you start (and end) on a greater weight than previously. that correct?

and should the jumps be significant, to end on a near-max-capacity weight? or should they be smaller increases, clustered closer to the top of one's capacity?

i also assume that regardless, that's done after a lower-weight warmup, yeah?

i actually haven't felt much fatigue, but i haven't done much riding yet. after lifting saturday morning, though, i went on a two hour ride with a pal. wet, cold, gritty, and headwinds. it was pretty miserable and we were both pretty fried afterward. but that was definitely a combination of factors.

Read Starting Strength. It's not a long book. It's available via Amazon Kindle, too.

Linear Progression:

Let's take the Squat for this example. There are "warmup sets" and "working sets". The working sets are the goal for the day. So, let's say that my working weight (or Target weight) for the day is 215lbs. A normal workout would look like this:

MONDAY (Target Weight = 215#):
1 x 5 x BAR (1 set of 5 reps of just the bar on my shoulders)
1 x 5 x BAR
1 x 5 x (40% * 215#)
1 x 3 x (60% * 215#)
1 x 2 x (80% * 215#)
3 x 5 x 215#

(then you'd do other exercises)

And the rest of the week would look like this:

WEDNESDAY (Target Weight = 230#):
1 x 5 x BAR (1 set of 5 reps of just the bar on my shoulders)
1 x 5 x BAR
1 x 5 x (40% * 230#)
1 x 3 x (60% * 230#)
1 x 2 x (80% * 230#)
3 x 5 x 230#

FRIDAY (Target Weight = 240#):
1 x 5 x BAR (1 set of 5 reps of just the bar on my shoulders)
1 x 5 x BAR
1 x 5 x (40% * 240#)
1 x 3 x (60% * 240#)
1 x 2 x (80% * 240#)
3 x 5 x 240#

So, the linear in "Linear Progression" is the 215 to 230 to 240. When you plot your progress, it will be generally linear for most beginners.

I went from squatting 95# to 345# linearly in 4 months (October 2009 - January 2010), with a handful of resets. A "reset" is when you fail a target lift by either dropping the weight, not completing all 3 sets, or not getting the bar off the rack. There are a few ways to deal with the failure...but those are discussed in the book.

You should read the book. Seriously. It will answer questions that you don't even know to ask yet. The book can get wordy where he explains a lot of the "Why". But, just read the "What" and read the "Why" when you need more info.

Thanks! Just ordered it.

Great thread so far, though it is a bit sprinter oriented, of course. Though I wish I could be a big powerful sprinter, I simply don't have the build for it, nor do I live close enough to a track to justify the training, and I like my cyclocross a bit too much. So I'm more of an enduro wondering what other enduros do for lifting both during the off season, and race season.

A bit of background on myself: I started lifting years ago and 5x5 was my first strength training program. As I started to do more road rides, I would take sets off the 5x5 program until I was basically doing Starting Strength. A year or two ago I bought the book and followed the program to the letter during my offseason. Eventually, I ran out of time and gains and had to cut back on lifting volume to continue progressing on the bike. Last year I decided I would focus I good deal of my efforts on weight training, hoping to carry as much strength into the race season. I bought Practical Programming and started doing the Texas Method, having exhausted my newbie gains. The program really wrung me out and left little in my tank for bike work, plus I felt less fit for this past season than I thought I would be. As this past race ended, and I stopped lifting altogether due to a busy school schedule, I found myself to be much much fresher on the bike and in some instances, faster.

So I'm curious what kind of weight training other enduros do. I definitely feel some benefit from it, but not enough to devote several months of time to an intermediate program. Ultimately, I'd like to see myself going to the gym twice a week now, and maybe once a week during the race season, with a few breaks in between. I think the lifts I should focus the most on are the squat and deadlift, with a few assistance exercises for balance. I've just no idea how to program them. Does anyone have any thoughts?

If you want to PM me your email address I have a few other e-books you may enjoy.

5x5 (I ran the Madcow's template) worked well for me when I wasn't riding. i If you're new to training definitely go with starting strength, or some type of linear programming. The gains come easy at first but it definitely becomes to hard to sustain the linear gains after a while.
I transitioned to 5/3/1 and had a lot of progress with that.

Once you're familiar with your lifts, recovery, strength, etc you can train a bit more intuitively, but when starting out it's very nice to have a solid program written out to follow.

Finally hit a post weight loss deadlift PR yesterday. Only 445, but it's coming back up nicely.

I pulled 505 last spring when I weighed 190. Now I'm down to 160 or so and I lost a ton of strength.

Gearing up for race season. Currently I'm in a strength building phase, coming off of a hypertrophy phase. That's just 2x per week. Other days are on the bike.

...I know, Carleton, I'm totally doing it wrong. Haha

Yes- we tend to be big and loud- and dominate most conversations… we can't help it ;)

Yes- This^^^
as an athlete who is likely not genetically highly pre-disposed to big strength gains (unlike us fat sprinters) the best plan is to do a block of weight training 3x a week, probably when bike intensity is down (during base). You will make your biggest strength gains in that block.. as bike intensity rises- drop to 2 days.. you will still be able to make gym progress, but it will slow.. then in race season(or before) cut to 1 day a week for strength maintenance… cut weights entirely when you taper for "A" races..

IMHO-
the beginner program in starting strength is perfect for this..
*when you are lifting 3x a week do the normal alternating A/B day- even include the Bench and Press..
*when you cut to 2x a week, just do an A and a B- and most cyclist drop the bench and probably the press as well, even though it does have some benefits for cyclist..
*When you cut to 1x a week, you can potentially alternate Power Clean and Dead Lift every other week.. to keep fatigue down..

NICE! congrats!

Lifting weights is Mass Dependent.. as the big boys in powerlifting say "Mass Moves Mass"…

i just dropped some weight- and i found that the Dead is probably even more mass dependent than my squat.. as my squat numbers have stayed pretty much the same.. dead is down..

also- from a percentage standpoint- lifting 445lb at 160 is bigger than lifting 505 at 190.. so strength to weight is up.. and you are within striking distance of a triple bodyweight Dead.. which is SOLID!!!

I don't want to speak for Carleton…

but what i think he is saying is:
the program you outlined above is not optimized for getting the biggest strength gains from the least amount of gym time.. which is basically the biggest priority for strength dependent athletes..

also- there is pretty strong evidence that "Hypertrophy" work adds very little to strength work that follows it.. by its nature- hypertrophy makes you big, which is not conducive to losing weight or riding a bike fast.. Most of the programming that involves a Hypertrophy phase followed by a Strength phase was designed for football players who need to be Big and Strong…

Very true. My squats always went really well when I was fairly bloated honestly. so both of those took a pretty good hit.

Hoping to get back up to that 505 area while keeping my weight low enough to be in the 165 class. I'd like to get back on the platform next year if time/money allow it.


how did your meet go? put up a decent total?

The meet was awesome! I was really happy.

I competed in the 181lb weight class
the numbers:
Squat:473lbs PR (U.S.P.A. Masters American Record)
Bench:248lbs
Dead Lift:507lbs (U.S.P.A. Masters American Record)

Total:1228lbs
Wilks: 375 (PR)

I got greedy on the dead- confident i could of done 525lbs, but 540 would of given me the American record for total.. I pulled it to just over my knees.. next time!

Amazing! Congrats!

Holy crap, nice going Quinn!

Echo that...

Amazement at the serious numbers at decent body weights!

Given most busy enduros don't find enough time to fit in riding, I would personally put on bike work way before any weights. What is your current available time per week to train / training comprise of? First training other than riding I'd be doing would be running for CX.

I have been considering weights lately, but would be only upper body for general wellbeing. As a Masters athlete it would be only to slow the loss of muscle mass as I age.

nice work on the meet quinn.

those are some strong squat numbers for a 181.

ps. and I just realized you said masters...... all of those numbers are damn strong.

if you don't mind me asking, how old are ya?

In addition... As with many questions about training, I think the answer starts with "it depends."

From my enduro-POV: I'm lifting (focusing on squats) 3x/week through the winter. I'm not putting bikework for a few reasons. One is that I live in Minnesota, so riding outdoors is balls, and because I find a trainer ride to be only slightly more enjoyable than a colonoscopy (No endurance or much volume to speak of for me; I do SST and V02max workouts that all wind up approximating a half-hour long points race or madison). Secondly, my limiter is 30-60-second power: I may be an enduro, but I need more strength and a better sprint.

Anyway, @TrackMonkey, all this gets at, figure out what makes sense for both your needs & limiters, and your schedule and other particulars that determine when, how, and how much you train.

Naturally any generalizations about training come with a caveat. But with the little information we have so far from track monkey with CX still a focus and comments about limited training time...

Given the weather in your area (I assume no indoor track and racing in winter in Minnesota?) and distain of colonoscopies I can see where weights may play a part. Though I'd learn to enjoy colonoscopies if I lived through such harsh winters. :innocent:

With track monkey having a winter racing season with CX, I am not sure they need to follow the old paradigm of a yearly training cycle with a lengthy base period, build etc since they would be racing summer and winter. Then especially so for those racers living in milder climes live SoCal or here in Australia. There is no off season for track here as most states have an indoor track (though summer is still the main season with States and Nationals) with racing 2-3 days a week year round. And if you race other cycling events the seasons overlap with summer crits, winter road racing, TT's and recently CX! Therefore I still allow for some lowering of intensity in my plan but there is normally some intensity year round.

Yup, no indoor track, and no racing in the winter here. There's CX until November, but then the snow sets in. It's not all that unusual to have days or weeks at a time where the weather doesn't get above 0.

Farenheit, not Celsius.

Just googled 'convert 0 degrees Farenheit to Celcius'... :twitchy:

It's unpleasant.
Spring road races and crits basically start before the weather gets nice, too.
So the people who are in shape for those races are the ones who have the mental capacity (or lack thereof) for 4-hour trainer rides.

whoah!
I do 2hr +/- trainer rides a couple times a week… but 4hr is long!

The key is to have put in mid 20 hour weeks as a swimmer staring at the bottom of the pool. Makes riding rollers a snap mentally in comparison.