Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

Track Cycling: Velodrome Racing and Training Area Looking to enter into the realm of track racing? Want to share your experiences and tactics for riding on a velodrome? The Track Cycling forums is for you! Come in and discuss training/racing, equipment, and current track cycling events.

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 08-27-17, 08:09 AM   #851
warx
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Marin County CA, USA
Bikes: Venge, Koichi San II, Crux Sngl Spd, EVO, Stumpy
Posts: 60
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 27 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by TDinBristol View Post
Try hex squats.
....
For simple basement or garage gyms, they're also good (and very safe) if you don't have room for a power rack. I use dense foam pads, 1/2" thick, on the floor so the weights don't make so much noise when I lower them to the floor.

https://www.strengthandconditioningr...-bar-deadlift/

See "deficit pulls" here:
https://www.t-nation.com/training/5-...ift-variations
Great articles! - thanks for posting. One reason I've been doing single leg stuff is so I can hold the weight in a similar position to the hex/trap bar - but also with a regular bar you need a good rack and/or bumpers etc. So many good exercises to do with the trap bar. Think I'll give these a shot. Time to start checking craigslist.
warx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-17, 10:41 AM   #852
Franklin27
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Bikes:
Posts: 35
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 21 Post(s)
Hey, boys! Have you all finished your track racing seasons?

So what... way back to the gym?
Franklin27 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-17, 11:26 AM   #853
VanceMac
Senior Member
 
VanceMac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Socal
Bikes:
Posts: 4,312
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 28 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franklin27 View Post
Hey, boys! Have you all finished your track racing seasons?

So what... way back to the gym?
Worlds finishing up at my home track this weekend. Looking forward to the winter bulking season!
VanceMac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-17, 11:32 AM   #854
warx
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Marin County CA, USA
Bikes: Venge, Koichi San II, Crux Sngl Spd, EVO, Stumpy
Posts: 60
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 27 Post(s)
Well... I'm stuck with weights (non-aerobic, indoors) as the smoky air quality from the NorCal fires is pretty awful here. Wearing a mask as I type this [still, blessed I'm not impacted further.] We do have a Winter series continuing for a few more weekends here though.

As a followup to the most recent conversation here I did get a hex/trap bar and have been working with it. I need to get some 2" grip expanders as I've lost my "American Ninja Warrior forearm mighty-grip" abilities... It's a lot of weight hanging off my arms. I am waiting for a squat rack too. I also think I'm getting over the DOMS hump with a concerted effort to go heavy every three days.
warx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-17, 01:29 PM   #855
Franklin27
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Bikes:
Posts: 35
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 21 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by warx View Post
Well... I'm stuck with weights (non-aerobic, indoors) as the smoky air quality from the NorCal fires is pretty awful here. Wearing a mask as I type this [still, blessed I'm not impacted further.] We do have a Winter series continuing for a few more weekends here though.
Ohh, man. I hope everything goes fine.
Franklin27 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-17, 02:29 PM   #856
topflightpro
Senior Member
 
topflightpro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 5,267
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 700 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by warx View Post
As a followup to the most recent conversation here I did get a hex/trap bar and have been working with it. I need to get some 2" grip expanders as I've lost my "American Ninja Warrior forearm mighty-grip" abilities... It's a lot of weight hanging off my arms. I am waiting for a squat rack too. I also think I'm getting over the DOMS hump with a concerted effort to go heavy every three days.
Have you tried wrist wraps. They help me with my heavy dead lifts.
topflightpro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-17, 02:41 PM   #857
carleton
Elitist
 
carleton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Bikes:
Posts: 14,063
Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 478 Post(s)
When I'm leveling-up my dead lifts and things are getting heavy, I don't use any assistance during the warmup sets then I use a belt and hooks. That way my core and grip strength don't limit what my legs and back can do because that's the ultimate goal for doing dead lifts for me. Core and grip strength are secondary.

But, as the target weights go up, so do the warmup weights. So, my core and grip strength are still progressing.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtrob View Post
Roadies can run tempo all year as that's what humans were designed for. If you want to be a cheetah, lay around and lick your paws more.
carleton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-17, 03:14 PM   #858
warx
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Marin County CA, USA
Bikes: Venge, Koichi San II, Crux Sngl Spd, EVO, Stumpy
Posts: 60
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 27 Post(s)
I have lifters straps but my bar is only 1" (25mm) and still leaves the weight hanging on the shortest fingers more than in the grip. Better bars are bigger and some even have rotating handles with three sizes. I just got my Yes2All 2.2" slip-on grips today - they seem too big - but way better than 1". Combined with my wrist straps i think they will work well.

The other annoying thing with my bar is that I have 45# bumbers and can only fit three and that's without the locking collar. Crazy but most of them are like that. I might end up selling this and getting the CAP one.

Half of my squat rack delivery went missing (FedEx) but the folks at BodySolid are great and are sending a replacement.

One more thing; I just received a "Landmine" for my oly bar. I've never used one but I see there are some cool single (and double) leg exercises you can use it for (not just a cross-fit thing!)
warx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-17, 10:39 AM   #859
spartanKid
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Bikes:
Posts: 41
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15 Post(s)
I regards to people's talk of excessive DOMS and nutrition: if you're lifting heavy weights multiple times per week, you should probably be getting close to 1 g of protein per lb of bodyweight per day, spread out in multiple, (4-6), meals per day. This might help address some of the extended DOMS people experience. For many people here, that's going to be in the neighborhood 200g of protein *per day*, or about 1.5 lbs of chicken breast per day. Just for one day, try tracking a typical day's worth of meals and see how much protein you're actually eating. I bet it's less than you think.

Also, once trained up for the different muscle firing patterns, everyone can do WAY more weight on one-legged/bulgarian squats than simply 50% of their 2 leg weight. The bilateral strength deficit is real. I'm just an anecdote, but I can Bulgarian squat 2x100lbs dumbbells and a 20 lbs weight vest for sets of 8. I cannot barbell back squat 440 lbs at all.
spartanKid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-17, 11:22 AM   #860
warx
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Marin County CA, USA
Bikes: Venge, Koichi San II, Crux Sngl Spd, EVO, Stumpy
Posts: 60
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 27 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by spartanKid View Post
I regards to people's talk of excessive DOMS and nutrition: if you're lifting heavy weights multiple times per week, you should probably be getting close to 1 g of protein per lb of bodyweight per day, spread out in multiple, (4-6), meals per day. This might help address some of the extended DOMS people experience. For many people here, that's going to be in the neighborhood 200g of protein *per day*, or about 1.5 lbs of chicken breast per day. Just for one day, try tracking a typical day's worth of meals and see how much protein you're actually eating. I bet it's less than you think.
Also, once trained up for the different muscle firing patterns, everyone can do WAY more weight on one-legged/bulgarian squats than simply 50% of their 2 leg weight. The bilateral strength deficit is real. I'm just an anecdote, but I can Bulgarian squat 2x100lbs dumbbells and a 20 lbs weight vest for sets of 8. I cannot barbell back squat 440 lbs at all.
Yeah, I do need to keep track - I'll look for an App to help. I know I take 45g of "Naked Whey" a day but don't want to rely on supplements any more than this.

The question is if split squats are as beneficial as back squats. The formula I'd used for estimating the two legged weight was "add 1/4 of bodyweight to dumbbell total then double" - but, as you say, this in no way the case (even my numbers show this). Not so important now I decided to get splurge for a rack anyways.

I was reading about Jason Kenny's routine:

10 x 145Kg back squat
Leg press
5 x 160Kg hexbar deadlift (or start raised for 200Kg)

I think I'll stick to sets of 10-12 for back squat. Although I feel that lower reps is always better for strength, I think at my age staying on the higher rep side is better/safer. Dead lift can be lower reps.
warx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-17, 12:40 PM   #861
spartanKid
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Bikes:
Posts: 41
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by warx View Post
Yeah, I do need to keep track - I'll look for an App to help. I know I take 45g of "Naked Whey" a day but don't want to rely on supplements any more than this.

The question is if split squats are as beneficial as back squats. The formula I'd used for estimating the two legged weight was "add 1/4 of bodyweight to dumbbell total then double" - but, as you say, this in no way the case (even my numbers show this). Not so important now I decided to get splurge for a rack anyways.

I was reading about Jason Kenny's routine:

10 x 145Kg back squat
Leg press
5 x 160Kg hexbar deadlift (or start raised for 200Kg)

I think I'll stick to sets of 10-12 for back squat. Although I feel that lower reps is always better for strength, I think at my age staying on the higher rep side is better/safer. Dead lift can be lower reps.
Rear foot elevated split squats remove the lowerback/core as the limiter for weight lifted during a squat like movement. I think there is a big benefit there for people who have a history of back troubles or back problems. As other people have said, there is also a strong neuromuscular component to lifting and sprinting, and when you sprint on a bike you're only ever pushing with one leg at a time, so it might make some sense to add in single-leg movements.

Another caveat to unilateral lifting is that studies show that unilateral strength carries over well to bilateral exercises, but less so the other way around.

Also, I don't think much can be learned from that sample program from Kenny because it doesn't include any information about the phase of training, what his other on/off bike workouts looked like, what his goals were, etc. Doing higher rep squats and lower rep deadlifts seems perfectly fine, but I hope you have more justification than "Jason Kenny did them this way".
spartanKid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-17, 12:49 PM   #862
carleton
Elitist
 
carleton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Bikes:
Posts: 14,063
Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 478 Post(s)
I've read similar good things about unilateral (single-leg) exercises. I'm a big fan of single-leg leg press.

And, yes, muscle imbalances are real and most of us have them.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtrob View Post
Roadies can run tempo all year as that's what humans were designed for. If you want to be a cheetah, lay around and lick your paws more.
carleton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-17, 12:53 PM   #863
ruudlaff
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Bikes:
Posts: 82
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 45 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by warx View Post
Yeah, I do need to keep track - I'll look for an App to help. I know I take 45g of "Naked Whey" a day but don't want to rely on supplements any more than this.

The question is if split squats are as beneficial as back squats. The formula I'd used for estimating the two legged weight was "add 1/4 of bodyweight to dumbbell total then double" - but, as you say, this in no way the case (even my numbers show this). Not so important now I decided to get splurge for a rack anyways.

I was reading about Jason Kenny's routine:

10 x 145Kg back squat
Leg press
5 x 160Kg hexbar deadlift (or start raised for 200Kg)

I think I'll stick to sets of 10-12 for back squat. Although I feel that lower reps is always better for strength, I think at my age staying on the higher rep side is better/safer. Dead lift can be lower reps.
Wow, for the competitive monster hat he is, you just kind of assume these people are lifting monstrous weights...but thatís not really the case for some of them really
ruudlaff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-17, 12:55 PM   #864
carleton
Elitist
 
carleton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Bikes:
Posts: 14,063
Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 478 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ruudlaff View Post
Wow, for the competitive monster hat he is, you just kind of assume these people are lifting monstrous weights...but thatís not really the case for some of them really
Yeah, I agree.

His teammate (before retiring):



Warx, can you link us to Kenny's workout or provide the text here?
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtrob View Post
Roadies can run tempo all year as that's what humans were designed for. If you want to be a cheetah, lay around and lick your paws more.
carleton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-17, 01:02 PM   #865
warx
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Marin County CA, USA
Bikes: Venge, Koichi San II, Crux Sngl Spd, EVO, Stumpy
Posts: 60
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 27 Post(s)
Just to add a little more context here's more of the article.

Quote:
1: SQUAT FOR STRENGTH AND POWER
“For bigger leg muscles, general muscle definition and leg power, you will not find a better exercise than the squat. When you are squatting well it feels great but if you’re struggling it can feel like a horrendous exercise. In particular, when you do lots of repetitions it really starts to bite.
"To build strength and power we try to vary the exercise a lot. So we might do three sets of ten squats, a one-rep max, or explosive squats with lighter weights during which the aim is to produce as much power as possible.
"The most important thing is to get your technique right. I personally focus on keeping the weight on my heels, keeping my chest up, staying in control on the way down, and being explosive on the way up. But you should get a trainer to make sure you get it right. During a gym session I will do 10 squats with a 145kg barbell.”
warx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-17, 01:07 PM   #866
warx
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Marin County CA, USA
Bikes: Venge, Koichi San II, Crux Sngl Spd, EVO, Stumpy
Posts: 60
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 27 Post(s)
The whole article here (yes it's a "how to for general populous" article but it's one of very few references to actual sprinters workouts.)
How to get legs like track cyclist Jason Kenny - Telegraph
warx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-17, 01:16 PM   #867
carleton
Elitist
 
carleton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Bikes:
Posts: 14,063
Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 478 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by warx View Post
The whole article here (yes it's a "how to for general populous" article but it's one of very few references to actual sprinters workouts.)
How to get legs like track cyclist Jason Kenny - Telegraph
Thanks!!
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtrob View Post
Roadies can run tempo all year as that's what humans were designed for. If you want to be a cheetah, lay around and lick your paws more.
carleton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-17, 02:51 PM   #868
ruudlaff
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Bikes:
Posts: 82
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 45 Post(s)
One thing Iíve found help some people keep the weight over their heels is to roll the bar slightly down the back than feels natural at first.

I see tons of cyclists lifting for the first time hold the bar too high up into the shoulders/almost neck and they end up curling their back as they drive up because their back and core isnít engaged properly.
ruudlaff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-17, 03:57 PM   #869
carleton
Elitist
 
carleton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Bikes:
Posts: 14,063
Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 478 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ruudlaff View Post
One thing Iíve found help some people keep the weight over their heels is to roll the bar slightly down the back than feels natural at first.

I see tons of cyclists lifting for the first time hold the bar too high up into the shoulders/almost neck and they end up curling their back as they drive up because their back and core isnít engaged properly.
Well...I trained a few times under the eye of John Coffee and I had the bar down low and the first thing he did was tell me to bring it up higher hear my neck. He's like, "I don't know why y'all come in here with the bar all low. Probably listening to Rippetoe...", hahahaha.

With credentials like these, all I said was, "Yes, sir!"
Coffee?s Gym ? COFFEE'S GYM

Not trying to discredit you. I'm a fan of the low bar back squat myself. Just offering a different point of view.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtrob View Post
Roadies can run tempo all year as that's what humans were designed for. If you want to be a cheetah, lay around and lick your paws more.
carleton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-17, 06:10 PM   #870
topflightpro
Senior Member
 
topflightpro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 5,267
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 700 Post(s)
I knew Coffee's Gym, or knew of it, growing up there.

In fact, I remember going to Fitness Depot to get a mouth guard when I was taking Tae Kwan Do in elementary school.
topflightpro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-17, 06:43 PM   #871
spartanKid
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Bikes:
Posts: 41
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ruudlaff View Post
One thing I’ve found help some people keep the weight over their heels is to roll the bar slightly down the back than feels natural at first.

I see tons of cyclists lifting for the first time hold the bar too high up into the shoulders/almost neck and they end up curling their back as they drive up because their back and core isn’t engaged properly.
High bar vs low bar squat is a often dictated by anatomy and proportions, and I don't think it's fair to tell people that they always need to "put the back lower on their back" as a general rule. It'd be like suggesting EVERYONE always go to longer/shorter cranks than they think.



Bar higher up on the traps will allow the torso to be more upright in the hole, typically allows a greater range of motion and is a slightly more quad dominant movement. High bar squats are also usually done with a narrower stance, and usually more natural for people with shorter femurs and naturally flexible angles. High bar squats are more commonly associated with olympic weightlifters as it more closely mimics the ROM and posture of a front squat.

Low bar squat is usually accompanied with a wider stance, a lower torso angle/more lean in the hole, a shorter ROM, and often times slightly heavier weights. Powerlifters usually low bar squat with a wide stance to make the ROM the shortest so they can lift the heaviest weights. EDIT: Low bar squats also recruit more posterior chain, glutes/hams, etc.

All types of barbell squats should be performed with a full breath and tight core, regardless of bar position.

Last edited by spartanKid; 10-13-17 at 07:17 PM.
spartanKid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-17, 06:52 PM   #872
carleton
Elitist
 
carleton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Bikes:
Posts: 14,063
Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 478 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by spartanKid View Post
High bar squats are more commonly associated with olympic weightlifters as it more closely mimics the ROM and posture of a front squat.
That jives with Coffee as he trained the Olympic lifts for competition.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtrob View Post
Roadies can run tempo all year as that's what humans were designed for. If you want to be a cheetah, lay around and lick your paws more.
carleton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-14-17, 12:32 AM   #873
ruudlaff
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Bikes:
Posts: 82
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 45 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by spartanKid View Post
High bar vs low bar squat is a often dictated by anatomy and proportions, and I don't think it's fair to tell people that they always need to "put the back lower on their back" as a general rule. It'd be like suggesting EVERYONE always go to longer/shorter cranks than they think.



Bar higher up on the traps will allow the torso to be more upright in the hole, typically allows a greater range of motion and is a slightly more quad dominant movement. High bar squats are also usually done with a narrower stance, and usually more natural for people with shorter femurs and naturally flexible angles. High bar squats are more commonly associated with olympic weightlifters as it more closely mimics the ROM and posture of a front squat.

Low bar squat is usually accompanied with a wider stance, a lower torso angle/more lean in the hole, a shorter ROM, and often times slightly heavier weights. Powerlifters usually low bar squat with a wide stance to make the ROM the shortest so they can lift the heaviest weights. EDIT: Low bar squats also recruit more posterior chain, glutes/hams, etc.

All types of barbell squats should be performed with a full breath and tight core, regardless of bar position.
Apologies if it seemed like a commandment, it was more designed as a suggestion to try for some who struggle.

I wouldnít profess to have enough knowledge to be telling everyone what to do
ruudlaff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-17, 04:15 AM   #874
southernfox
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Charleston, SC
Bikes:
Posts: 36
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 25 Post(s)
Stoked to complete my first set of bodyweight squats yesterday ^_^ Started lifting end of July.
southernfox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-17, 09:50 AM   #875
spartanKid
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Bikes:
Posts: 41
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ruudlaff View Post
Apologies if it seemed like a commandment, it was more designed as a suggestion to try for some who struggle.

I wouldnít profess to have enough knowledge to be telling everyone what to do
No worries! I just don't want people to think one type of squat is better or worse than the other
spartanKid is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:00 AM.


 
  • Ask a Question
    get answers from real people!
Click to start entering your question.
I HAVE A QUESTION