Track Cycling: Velodrome Racing and Training Area Looking to enter into the realm of track racing? Want to share your experiences and tactics for riding on a velodrome? The Track Cycling forums is for you! Come in and discuss training/racing, equipment, and current track cycling events.

Interesting finds around the web

Reply

Old 07-05-18, 06:05 AM
  #2026  
topflightpro
Senior Member
 
topflightpro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,057
Mentioned: 36 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1132 Post(s)
The article mentioned a private donation to support this effort, so maybe that donor will stay on top of things to make sure it is happening.

Also, they're targeting 15-21 year olds, which is where they need to be looking.
topflightpro is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-18, 10:48 AM
  #2027  
carleton
Elitist
Thread Starter
 
carleton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 15,331
Mentioned: 70 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1096 Post(s)
Originally Posted by topflightpro View Post
The article mentioned a private donation to support this effort, so maybe that donor will stay on top of things to make sure it is happening.
I missed that part. Why would USA Cycling need outside money?

Originally Posted by topflightpro View Post
Also, they're targeting 15-21 year olds, which is where they need to be looking.
Jamie Staff said that very thing several times back in 2010 when he was leading the USA Sprint program. I recall hearing it either on a YouTube interview or podcast.

Staff was witness to probably the best recruiting and nurturing programs around while with British Cycling. Joanna Rowsell and Laura Kenny, née Trott were around that age when they were discovered and put on bicycles. They weren't outstanding junior racers before that. They also turned Hoy and Pendleton from pretty good into some of best ever.

We need a long-term program. Not one that gets reinvigorated 2 years before the Olympics then dismantled the week after...which seems to be how we do it
carleton is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-18, 04:47 PM
  #2028  
queerpunk
aka mattio
 
queerpunk's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 6,462
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 285 Post(s)
****'s expensive, man! USAC isn't government-funded like all the other national programs. It runs on sponsorship, race fees, and outside money.

There has been a long-term program in place for about four years, which is nice. There's a respectable Olympic program right now (which is to say, a team that is developed, coached, supported, and sent to world cups). What they're trying to do with this new youth structure is make sure that the Olympic program keeps getting fed. They're taking steps in the right direction, and I think it's worth it to let them and not gripe about where they're starting from.
queerpunk is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-18, 07:36 PM
  #2029  
carleton
Elitist
Thread Starter
 
carleton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 15,331
Mentioned: 70 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1096 Post(s)
Originally Posted by queerpunk View Post
****'s expensive, man! USAC isn't government-funded like all the other national programs. It runs on sponsorship, race fees, and outside money.

There has been a long-term program in place for about four years, which is nice. There's a respectable Olympic program right now (which is to say, a team that is developed, coached, supported, and sent to world cups). What they're trying to do with this new youth structure is make sure that the Olympic program keeps getting fed. They're taking steps in the right direction, and I think it's worth it to let them and not gripe about where they're starting from.
That's fair...but as Shakespeare put it, "What's past is prologue."

Identifying athletes isn't that hard...even 15 year olds. They key is to not wait for them to discover the niche of track cycling within the niche of cycling. Go to Track and Field and it'll be like shooting fish in a barrel finding talent. The USA has probably the best track and field grass roots development programs in the world. Those kids have been training their legs and lungs since like age 8. The talented have already been identified.

For the athletes on the US National Team, working to pay bills while putting in the necessary training is the hard part. There are countless stories of US household-name trackies that were already world class that quit because they can't pay adult bills. Bobby Lea gave an interview about it.

I'll rejoice when I see the press release that states the actual salaries and contract lengths that will be paid to those on the team.
carleton is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-18, 11:54 AM
  #2030  
carleton
Elitist
Thread Starter
 
carleton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 15,331
Mentioned: 70 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1096 Post(s)
2018 USA Masters Track Nationals starts today in Trexlertown, PA (TTown, 333M outdoor).

Results can be found here: https://legacy.usacycling.org/2018/m...rack-nationals
carleton is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-18, 07:39 PM
  #2031  
carleton
Elitist
Thread Starter
 
carleton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 15,331
Mentioned: 70 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1096 Post(s)
Originally Posted by spartanKid View Post
Technically it's juniors until the 10th, then masters after that until the 15th.
Ah! Thanks for the correction!

(You can tell that I'm not going )
carleton is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-18, 04:14 AM
  #2032  
Minion1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 545
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Don't know if it's going to format properly, but Charlie Walsh (fmr Aus track coach) put a statement up on FB about using BT as a bike sponsor,

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.p...00009424077292

I found it through Fyxo's FB, if the link doesn't work...
Minion1 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-18, 03:39 PM
  #2033  
carleton
Elitist
Thread Starter
 
carleton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 15,331
Mentioned: 70 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1096 Post(s)
Originally Posted by Minion1 View Post
Don't know if it's going to format properly, but Charlie Walsh (fmr Aus track coach) put a statement up on FB about using BT as a bike sponsor,

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.p...00009424077292

I found it through Fyxo's FB, if the link doesn't work...
Wow.

As I stated a few days ago...

Originally Posted by carleton View Post
I have $1 that says that this will not end well.




There are generally 4 ways to get equipment for your team:
  • Buy it outright like everyone else.
  • Get a "Pro Deal" sponsorship where you get gear at a reduced price (often at under wholesale prices).
  • Get the gear at no cost.
  • Get paid to use the gear.

If you are a good team, all of these benefit the company that makes the products via "transference". Consumers assume that, "If Athlete/Team uses this gear, it must be great!" or better, "This gear made Athlete/Team great!"

When you are good, you don't have to pay for gear.

When you are great, you get paid to use gear.


Here's my guess as to what's happening in Australia:
  • BT gave bikes, bars, etc... to the AUS track team for free in exchange for publicity (which works).
  • BT did not pay the AUS team to ride the bikes.
  • Simon Jones (Brit from Team Sky) came in and noted the relationship and thought, "Heck...We are one of the very best teams in the world. The team should be getting paid to ride these bikes the same way that [manufacturer A], [manufacturer B], [manufacturer C] paid Team Sky and other pro teams to use their gear.
  • BT said, "Nah. Margins on track frames are low as it is. We can't afford to." or "Nah. We like the deal the way it is now. Take it or leave it."
  • Jones changes the AUS Cycling Team's status to, "Single".
  • Argon18 says, "Sup, gurl?..."


Sound about right?

Last edited by carleton; 07-08-18 at 03:43 PM.
carleton is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-18, 03:50 PM
  #2034  
carleton
Elitist
Thread Starter
 
carleton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 15,331
Mentioned: 70 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1096 Post(s)
A problem that I see (aside from all of the above) is that Argon18's aren't proven sprint bikes. The AUS team has more top Sprinters than they do Enduros.

It's more difficult to make a top-tier sprint bike than it is to make a top-tier TT bike. Basically, it as to be strong like a tank and nimble like a race car. Aerodynamics come third...because if it's not strong or nimble, top sprinters will not like it.

Argon18 has been making track bikes for a while. I don't think I've ever seen a National level sprinter ride one, much less International.

Further...Why the hell would you change horses 2 years out from the Olympics? Even if Argon18 promises to make a "Porsche 911 on two wheels" for the AUS Sprinters from scratch, how long will that take to perfect? EVERY MILLIMETER of that new bike will be compared to a BT.
carleton is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-18, 09:55 PM
  #2035  
700wheel
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: USA
Posts: 528
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 104 Post(s)
Argon statement: https://www.argon18bike.com/en/news/...clingAustralia
700wheel is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-18, 11:30 PM
  #2036  
carleton
Elitist
Thread Starter
 
carleton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 15,331
Mentioned: 70 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1096 Post(s)
Originally Posted by spartanKid View Post
Is this true? This seems like it might be your sprinter bias showing. Their men's and women's TP squads both won Commonwealth games, and the men set a WR in the process, their women got 2nd and 3rd in the IP, Cameron Meyer has won numerous world titles in bunch races, a bunch of their TP women also do well in bunch races, etc.
You are probably right about my bias towards sprinting. I pay more attention to that stuff.

Maybe the Sprinters get more hype and press. Not sure.

Originally Posted by 700wheel View Post
From the website linked above:

What makes us different? We won’t stop until we’ve designed the fastest bike in the world. By combining all of our know-how and expertise in performance, aerodynamics and technology – by taking all we have learned and achieved with our road and triathlon bikes – we have what it takes to design track bikes like no other. And now working in tandem with Cycling Australia, our research and development team is right on track to go further than ever before.

“Our partnership with Cycling Australia for Tokyo 2020 will see us bringing to them Argon 18’s engineering manpower and cutting-edge technology expertise. Working in collaboration with Cycling Australia our goals are precise, and we target on nothing less but the fastest bike in the world. We’re already hard at work with their engineers and mechanics, we want to bring home Gold as much as they do.”

–Martin Faubert, Head of R&D, Argon 18
Soooooo...I read that as they don't have a bike yet
carleton is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-18, 06:22 AM
  #2037  
queerpunk
aka mattio
 
queerpunk's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 6,462
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 285 Post(s)
AUS nat'l track team: 7 sprinters, 11 enduros. https://www.australiancyclingteam.com/trackathletes.html

Argon 18 is making a sprint bike. It's 2 years out - it's not really a problem. There are horror stories of new bikes delivered on the eve of competition and things going wrong with them - there are also plenty of stories of new bikes delivered in the lead-up to the Olympics and there's no problem with them. Argon 18 has a track record of supporting national teams (Canada chose them too), collaborating with them on development (their partnership with Denmark led to the Electron Pro) and delivering a hot-off-the-molds world-class bike in the run-up to major events. Australia presumably knows how to write some requirements. I'm sure it's nothing to lose sleep over.
queerpunk is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-18, 09:30 AM
  #2038  
carleton
Elitist
Thread Starter
 
carleton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 15,331
Mentioned: 70 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1096 Post(s)
Originally Posted by queerpunk View Post
AUS nat'l track team: 7 sprinters, 11 enduros. https://www.australiancyclingteam.co...kathletes.html

Argon 18 is making a sprint bike. It's 2 years out - it's not really a problem. There are horror stories of new bikes delivered on the eve of competition and things going wrong with them - there are also plenty of stories of new bikes delivered in the lead-up to the Olympics and there's no problem with them. Argon 18 has a track record of supporting national teams (Canada chose them too), collaborating with them on development (their partnership with Denmark led to the Electron Pro) and delivering a hot-off-the-molds world-class bike in the run-up to major events. Australia presumably knows how to write some requirements. I'm sure it's nothing to lose sleep over.
I wouldn't say it's not a problem. It's a problem that is manageable. If and how it's managed is the million dollar question.

Compare the 1st generation Felt TK1 to the current TK FRD/TK1. 1st gen had fatal flaws under sprinters that were not issues for enduros. I've talked to top US sprinters that rode these.

Very few products are perfect in the first generation.

It takes a significant amount of time to iterate product designs. How many generations of this new bike can be designed, molds created, manufactured, delivered, tested...all from scratch?

The BT Edge and Stealth are very mature and proven.

Then there is the mental confidence that's required to pour 2,500W into a frame and travel 45mph while rubbing shoulders with another.

As I'm sure you know, Sprinters are abnormally large humans do things to these bikes that normal humans do not.

Hoy snapped off a pedal:


Vogel lost a saddle:


Blatchford pulled out of single straps (I can't find the photo).
I have a photo of an Italian (?) guy who broke some bars during a standing start.
Ever notice that top sprinters rarely use Shimano Dura Ace chainrings? (Massie does, though)...it's because they bend them. Not a problem for enduros.


Basically, this bike would be for those on the far right end of the bell curve.

Last edited by carleton; 07-09-18 at 09:36 AM.
carleton is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-18, 09:51 AM
  #2039  
Morelock
Senior Member
 
Morelock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 304
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 144 Post(s)
@carleton
Kind of funny the timing... I have been using (tririg) aero stems for a long time with no issues, Since taking up track and finding out I suck at standing starts, I've been working on it a bit.
So Saturday I'm starting my State TT, I pull the base bar up (not a lot thankfully) from my start (which is odd, all the bolts were torqued to spec with carbon paste, and I'm not pulling *that* hard)
Needless to say, I went back to a normal stem on the track bike!
Morelock is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-18, 10:37 AM
  #2040  
carleton
Elitist
Thread Starter
 
carleton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 15,331
Mentioned: 70 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1096 Post(s)
Originally Posted by Morelock View Post
@carleton
Kind of funny the timing... I have been using (tririg) aero stems for a long time with no issues, Since taking up track and finding out I suck at standing starts, I've been working on it a bit.
So Saturday I'm starting my State TT, I pull the base bar up (not a lot thankfully) from my start (which is odd, all the bolts were torqued to spec with carbon paste, and I'm not pulling *that* hard)
Needless to say, I went back to a normal stem on the track bike!
Yup!

And the examples that I noted above were just those that I personally happened to notice via press reports online from international competition...which is probably far less than 1% of the time that they spend on a bike. So, they probably break components even more in training.

I watched Steve Hill (a top US Elite/Masters sprinter, 44 at the time) break a chain stay of a Dolan DF3 during a standing start in training one day at DLV. He started into a normal standing start effort then "CRACK".

The struggle is real.
carleton is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-18, 10:47 AM
  #2041  
carleton
Elitist
Thread Starter
 
carleton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 15,331
Mentioned: 70 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1096 Post(s)
I'm talking about the bike that will be built for these guys:


Not these guys:


All are champions. But they have different needs.
carleton is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-18, 05:40 AM
  #2042  
Minion1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 545
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Regardless of anything else, it's a gutsy move to leave a proven performer for a bike that hasn't been developed yet, moving away from a specialist track manufacturer for a comparatively unknown entity.
Also, does anyone know why some UK sprinters were on UKSI bikes instead of Cervelos at Apeldoorn? 2 out of the 3 team sprint members were on UKSI bikes, its been something I've been wondering about for a while.
Minion1 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-18, 05:45 AM
  #2043  
Baby Puke
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Kanazawa
Posts: 1,378

Bikes: Marin Stelvio, Pogliaghi SL, Panasonic NJS, Dolan DF3, Intense Pro24 BMX

Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 195 Post(s)
I heard the Cervelos were not stiff enough for some of them. Relatively reliable hearsay.
Baby Puke is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-18, 05:50 AM
  #2044  
Minion1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 545
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Was just looking at some older pics in this thread, there are photos of Wiggins and Cavendish in a Madison, Cav on a UKSI bike, Wiggins on a cervelo. Seems like it's been an issue for a couple of years.
Minion1 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-18, 10:44 AM
  #2045  
carleton
Elitist
Thread Starter
 
carleton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 15,331
Mentioned: 70 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1096 Post(s)
Originally Posted by Baby Puke View Post
I heard the Cervelos were not stiff enough for some of them. Relatively reliable hearsay.
+1

Hindes has at least one Cervelo (likely several were made for him), yet he rides the much-older-tech UKSI and did so in the 2016 Olympics.

Sorry, don't have time to link pics. But, they are all here:

https://www.instagram.com/phindes/
carleton is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-18, 06:30 PM
  #2046  
carleton
Elitist
Thread Starter
 
carleton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 15,331
Mentioned: 70 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1096 Post(s)
1st and ONLY pic of the new Cervelo T5 (9 JULY 2016): https://www.instagram.com/p/BHpjHiYD...ken-by=phindes

Every other pic on his IG, including Olympic races, shows the UKSI bike.

Cervelo (arguably) has better credentials than Argon18, yet they missed the mark with the T5. Yes, some of the British Sprinters did use it, but the latest pic I've seen of Kenny in comp was also on the UKSI frame. If Cervelo hit the mark, then it would be hands-down better than the bikes made before 2012.

This is a recent and directly relevant example of the potential for failure that Argon18 + AIS face right now.
carleton is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-18, 02:19 AM
  #2047  
gycho77
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Delaware, USA
Posts: 559

Bikes: Serotta steel track bike, Specialized MTB

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 74 Post(s)
Late 40 Keirin racers vs Mid 20 Olympic speed skaters

Odd number racers are the speed skaters and even number racers are the keirin racers.
Number 5 racer is Olympic Gold medalist(speed skating)

i was told that Korean Speed Skater uses track bike to train in summer

gycho77 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-18, 02:21 PM
  #2048  
Richard Kennedy
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 48
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Originally Posted by carleton View Post
I missed that part. Why would USA Cycling need outside money?



Jamie Staff said that very thing several times back in 2010 when he was leading the USA Sprint program. I recall hearing it either on a YouTube interview or podcast.

Staff was witness to probably the best recruiting and nurturing programs around while with British Cycling. Joanna Rowsell and Laura Kenny, née Trott were around that age when they were discovered and put on bicycles. They weren't outstanding junior racers before that. They also turned Hoy and Pendleton from pretty good into some of best ever.

We need a long-term program. Not one that gets reinvigorated 2 years before the Olympics then dismantled the week after...which seems to be how we do it
Bit late for the comment, sorry about that, but Laura was not "discovered" by British Cycling coaches. She was breaking National Records in the Under 12's category and continued to break records all through her Youth and Junior years - long before she was old enough to be picked up by the British Cycling programs which helped her develop into the athlete she is now.

See pages 57, 82, 83 and 88 of this list of historical British track records if you really care for the details!

*
Richard Kennedy is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-18, 05:14 PM
  #2049  
700wheel
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: USA
Posts: 528
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 104 Post(s)
Originally Posted by Minion1 View Post
Was just looking at some older pics in this thread, there are photos of Wiggins and Cavendish in a Madison, Cav on a UKSI bike, Wiggins on a cervelo. Seems like it's been an issue for a couple of years.
Some pro riders have contracts that specify what make bikes they may ride. I know of two national teams where this applies to some riders (sorry I can't divulge due to NDAs).
700wheel is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-18, 08:22 PM
  #2050  
carleton
Elitist
Thread Starter
 
carleton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 15,331
Mentioned: 70 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1096 Post(s)
Originally Posted by Richard Kennedy View Post
Bit late for the comment, sorry about that, but Laura was not "discovered" by British Cycling coaches. She was breaking National Records in the Under 12's category and continued to break records all through her Youth and Junior years - long before she was old enough to be picked up by the British Cycling programs which helped her develop into the athlete she is now.

See pages 57, 82, 83 and 88 of this list of historical British track records if you really care for the details!

*
Thanks for the correction!

I think many of the news articles leave out such details. For example, here are consecutive paragraphs on her wikipedia page:

Early life

Laura Trott was born a month prematurely in Harlow in Essex with a collapsed lung and was later diagnosed with asthma. She was advised by doctors to take up sport in order to regulate her breathing. She enjoyed and competed in trampolining but had to give up due to respiratory problems. She grew up in Cheshunt in Hertfordshire, where she attended Turnford School. Her older sister Emma Trott is a former road racing cyclist.

Together with her sister, she began cycling when her mother did so to lose weight.

Career

She won two junior titles at both the 2009 and 2010 British National Track Championships, and placed third in the individual pursuit at the latter to win a place in the 2010 European Track Championships team pursuit squad aged just 18. After winning gold at the Euros, she went on to take her first world title at the 2011 championships, again as part of the team pursuit squad. In the run-up to the 2012 Olympics she won a further two World and two European golds, in both the team pursuit and the ominum, before securing her place in the Great Britain team as those events made their Olympic debut.
I assumed that the 2009 and 2010 success were her age 17-18 big splash into the scene after some small training prior (like Mathilde Gros of France).

After reading your post, I found more detail in this interview: https://www.theguardian.com/sport/20...ck-london-2012, which still fails to mention her junior records.

All that being said (and I still stand corrected) but Laura Kenny didn't seem to be the perennial junior cycling athlete that shows up at every junior nationals with junior careers like Jamie Staff, Hoy, and Pendleton who both had BMX careers prior.

I guess it's a case of the news reports sticking with the juicy bits. Kinda like Philip Hindes' story. It was portrayed as though he was new to track cycling when Team GB found him in 2012 and made him Man1 for Team Sprint just months before the Olympics. But, he'd been a world-class junior making the podium at junior worlds before that.
carleton is offline  
Reply With Quote

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service