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Old 09-15-16, 07:26 AM
  #526  
carleton
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Originally Posted by Koogar View Post
Carleton: re-read what I wrote immediately above.
35mm and 37mm 3T Scattos and 33mm Alpina Pista bars are not custom products
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Old 09-15-16, 07:37 AM
  #527  
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Koogar, it's exciting and interesting for us to be able to talk to a bike manufacturer before a bike gets made. That's very, very rare.

Right now, we haven't heard of anything that will make your bikes better than what we all have in our garages.

Dude, it's gonna be really, really hard for you to convince finicky consumers to buy a steel frame these days. I mean, I get it. I have a new custom steel frame in my garage right now (that I think could be better). But, the average Joe Trackie wouldn't do it...unless there was a really good reason on the surface. Promising great handling isn't on the surface.

Maybe you have a competitive advantage up your sleeve and don't want to share it too soon for fear of someone taking it to market before you. That's fair.

But, you know what would really sell? A bike that solves EV-ER-RY problem that is know to be had by trackies: slipping seatposts, slipping dropouts, mushy rear ends, sluggish handling, twitchy handling, bad sizing options (nothing over 57cm), really expensive, proprietary stems/seatposts, etc... If you solve every known problem, you will have made a bike that people can't help but buy.

Further, making the bike that you want to make honestly doesn't matter.

I'mma let that sink in for a sec.







If you want someone to open their wallet and give you money, then it has to be the bike that they want.
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Old 09-15-16, 08:00 AM
  #528  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
Koogar, it's exciting and interesting for us to be able to talk to a bike manufacturer before a bike gets made. That's very, very rare.

But, you know what would really sell? A bike that solves EV-ER-RY problem that is know to be had by trackies: slipping seatposts, slipping dropouts, mushy rear ends, sluggish handling, twitchy handling, bad sizing options (nothing over 57cm), really expensive, proprietary stems/seatposts, etc... If you solve every known problem, you will have made a bike that people can't help but buy.

Further, making the bike that you want to make honestly doesn't matter.
Carleton,

I'm in complete agreement on your first point. I've been following Koogar's posts and can't wait to see the finished product.

Your second point, while well meaning, I feel is going to be impossible. You'll never please all of the people all of the time. And if you try, you will compromise somewhere that will make someone unhappy. I think Koogar's point of pleasing the majority and dealing with outliers on a custom basis is a good plan.

To your third point, I'm in complete agreement. I'm a carpenter/contractor, and I get hired too often to build things that I don't like. But I do it because I like to eat.

Reading this, it looks like 2 and 3 are contradictory, but they're not. All of my work is on a custom basis. so I get to accommodate the good, the bad and the ugly. If I was working in a production environment, churning out the same thing day after day, then I'd be handling the oddball requests on a custom basis.

That's my 2 cents anyway.

PI
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Old 09-15-16, 09:27 AM
  #529  
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Originally Posted by 1incpa View Post
Carleton,

I'm in complete agreement on your first point. I've been following Koogar's posts and can't wait to see the finished product.

Your second point, while well meaning, I feel is going to be impossible. You'll never please all of the people all of the time. And if you try, you will compromise somewhere that will make someone unhappy. I think Koogar's point of pleasing the majority and dealing with outliers on a custom basis is a good plan.

To your third point, I'm in complete agreement. I'm a carpenter/contractor, and I get hired too often to build things that I don't like. But I do it because I like to eat.

Reading this, it looks like 2 and 3 are contradictory, but they're not. All of my work is on a custom basis. so I get to accommodate the good, the bad and the ugly. If I was working in a production environment, churning out the same thing day after day, then I'd be handling the oddball requests on a custom basis.

That's my 2 cents anyway.

PI

Thanks.


To further my rant:

I think the most successfully engineered things tend to be the least fancy. They basically work first then try to polish the working product a bit. For example:

- Thomson Seatposts and X4 stems
- Dura Ace track cranks
- Chris King headsets


If I'm a serious athlete or coaching a serious athlete and we are on a budget, I'm going for the safe and secure bet that solves as many common problems as possible, not the fancy. Even early models of the $4000 Felt TK1 had common problems: Slipping Seatposts and Tilting Seatposts. That's why the evolution of the seatpost and seatpost topper occurred and they now use the dead-stop seatpost and the indexed (instead of friction) seatpost topper.
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Old 09-15-16, 10:06 AM
  #530  
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Carleton, I could go on responding to you point by point, but I don't think it'll be particularly productive or in line with the intent of this thread. Let me instead try to summarize with a few reactions and leave this alone for a bit:

1) I really do appreciate that you and others have taken enough of an interest to give input and I value the debate, even if some of this has felt circular or contradictory to me. I come from an R&D background and I worry more about a lack of energetic debate. I am considering every comment made, but a decision not to incorporate what you or someone else may want doesn't mean I'm not listening.

2) There will be people whose needs our products won't meet. That is absolutely the nature of focused product development. Our products will change over time and evolve as the sport does; we're not bound by tradition. If at any time they don't solve the problems we're trying to solve, then we've failed. But they won't solve everyone's problems, all the time. That's a choice of focus.

3) Making the the bikes that we (as in Colby and myself) want matters quite a lot to us, actually - that's the source of our passion for this endeavor. It began from our frustrations with the offerings out there and the output will largely reflect what excites us and what we think would help other riders (but not necessarily every rider). We are fortunate to be able to pursue our vision without being forced to dilute it with decisions driven by the need to sell more frames. I welcome outside feedback, but make no mistake about it, this is not a crowd-sourced frame design.
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Old 09-15-16, 11:49 AM
  #531  
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To be honest, that's very much a non-reply.

My point about what you want not mattering is more to say that if you build only what you and Colby want you could end up with a bike that only you and Colby like.

My personal list of opportunities that your company has missed:
(edited)
- A chance to make some great dropouts (like BT does)
- A chance to use modern materials (carbon like most manufacturers do.)
- A chance to accomodate large chainrings (like BT does)


The things you are getting right:

- Standard round seatpost.


That's real talk, man. I (and many, many others) offered similar real talk to Fraley who came into the game on fire. We know what happened with that: http://serenitybikes.com

You can be stubborn if you want. It's your company

Last edited by carleton; 09-15-16 at 02:49 PM.
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Old 09-15-16, 01:06 PM
  #532  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
- A chance to use modern materials (carbon or at least aluminum, like most manufacturers do. Steel is gonna be a really hard sell. We all know this.)
I thought Koogar's frames were aluminum. Did I miss something?

PI
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Old 09-15-16, 01:11 PM
  #533  
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Originally Posted by 1incpa View Post
I thought Koogar's frames were aluminum. Did I miss something?

PI
In the track end design thread Koogar stated the frames would be 7005 aluminum.
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Old 09-15-16, 01:15 PM
  #534  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post

My personal list of opportunities that your company has missed:

- A chance to make some great dropouts (like BT does)
- A chance to make longer top tubes (like HOY does). (I recall something about 56 or 57 being the longest that you'll offer)
- A chance to use modern materials (carbon, like most manufacturers do)
- A chance to offer multiple colors (like Tiemeyer did)
Carleton, please at least take enough care not to spread outright misinformation. I've never said anything like that about top tube length. I don't even think in terms of top tube length, but rather reach - and I happen to ride a long reach. I also have no idea what exchange you might be recalling about color. I don't have a set color palette or even a finish process decided.

You know you don't have to just sit on the sidelines dispensing real talk, right? I'm leaving the "perfect track frame that meets everyone's needs" market wide open for you, as soon as you're ready to back up your real talk with real personal assets.
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Old 09-15-16, 01:27 PM
  #535  
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Originally Posted by 1incpa View Post
I thought Koogar's frames were aluminum. Did I miss something?

PI
Originally Posted by jfiveeight View Post
In the track end design thread Koogar stated the frames would be 7005 aluminum.
Prototypes are indeed 7005. But we're open to other materials, who knows what the future holds.... Except probably not carbon, at least so long as it is cost prohibitive to make an extensive range of production sizes or custom sizing.
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Old 09-15-16, 02:50 PM
  #536  
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I've edited my comments above.

Hey, I'll refrain from offering any feedback until you guys ship. How about that?
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Old 09-18-16, 09:16 AM
  #537  
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This is my entry to the discipline bike (which means I'll have it for a while), my Giant Omnium. I have no idea what model year it is. I bought as "slightly used" (it's essentially brand new) from a woman in SoCal who decided that Carson was just too far for her to drive for workouts.

This photo was taken right after I did an initial setup on it. It wasn't even fitted to me, yet. The front wheel is a Corima 48mm tubular, I'll use that with a Zipp disc that I also bought used. The "training" wheelset is a Miche Pistard with Tufo S33's. I also have a Zipp Vuka Bull TT bar for it. The drop bar it came with I'll stay with for a bit. The saddle is my go-to Adamo Prologue.


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Last edited by sarals; 09-18-16 at 04:30 PM.
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Old 09-18-16, 11:08 AM
  #538  
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That's a very nice looking entry into the discipline bike. With your wheel & bar options, you should be good to go for a long while.
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Old 09-18-16, 02:46 PM
  #539  
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Agreed. You could easily take that bike to Nats and not be held back in any way. Have fun dialing it in with all the new velodrome time you'll be putting in!
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Old 09-18-16, 04:30 PM
  #540  
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Thanks, guys! Votes of encouragement are certainly appreciated!
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Old 09-20-16, 04:14 PM
  #541  
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Here are a few photos of the Giant in different configurations. Yes, it is small, 49CM. So am I! It's mostly set up in the first photo, Miche wheels, KeO pedals, 48T chain ring, 16T cog, KMC chain, ISM saddle. Fit is close, but there does need to be some tweeking done with stem height and length.

In the other photos, it's not set up at all. Demo photos, if you will. The chain is loose, the tire on the disc IS flat, and the aerobars aren't even close to being fit.

Training mode:



Team sprints:



Team pursuits:



Zipp Vuka Bull TT bars:

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Old 09-20-16, 04:43 PM
  #542  
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You connect to the bike in 5 points (left and right hands, left and right feet, and saddle). You will need those to be ultra secure and solid.

If I were your coach/advisor, I would:

- Switch out your comfy, padded, slippery grip tape for some tacky tape like Lizard Skins (or similar). This will help with your standing starts. You want a firm connection to the bike. Compare doing a deadlift with a soft, spongy, slippery barbell vs a hard, grippy one.
- Don't use your super-padded road gloves. Consider using Baseball or Golf gloves. Cheap, grippy, and easy to find.
- Put you on zero float pedals.
- Use a different stem for your aero bars. They seem high. Try an adjustable stem for the aerobars until you get the fit right.
- Ditch the road bars for sprint bars. Sprint bars don't have a flat top. It's curved, so you don't jam up your forearms during standing starts. Go for Nitto B125AA (the most narrow you can find, 36cm I think, $100) or 3T Scatto 35cm ($400)

Optional:
- I don't like Omnium cranks because of the super thick crank spider and the need to use double chainring bolts. This makes gear changes take much longer than they should. Plus the q-factor is wider than dura ace. Switching to Dura Ace is like a $400 switch, though.


Basically, look at the bikes ridden by women who are faster than you and see what components they are using.

I know it's a lot all at once. But, if you are planning to race in the big show, just do it all now and trust that it's for a good reason

Lots of reading here: http://www.bikeforums.net/track-cycl...ack-racer.html

Last edited by carleton; 09-20-16 at 04:48 PM.
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Old 09-20-16, 05:21 PM
  #543  
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Carleton, thanks!

You can see the roadie influences on my choices, can't you?

The bar tape. I hate it, it's what the bike came with. It's going to go, and soon. Lizard Skins? I'll have a look!

The stem. I know. It's not right, even for the drop bars. It's definitely not going to work for the aero bars. I'll look into an adjustable stem, thanks for that!

Yep, the pedals need attention! Those KeO's on the bike are old ones, too. Zero float cleats? Done deal.

Ex told me "long finger gloves" to protect my knuckles. He said they can take a beating on the track. I actually don't like cushy gloves. My favorite gloves are old, worn out, and like a second skin. That's what I race with! In TT's, I go bare handed. However, I like the idea of golf gloves (my dad would, too)...and I'll go to REI and grab a pair!

I'll start looking at different drop bars. Thank you for those suggestions!

The SRAM crank is going to be on there for a while, I'm afraid. I know it's a "pay me now or pay me later" kind of thing, but no, not at this time! I've heard people say "Worlds at Carson in October 2017" in the same breath as my name, but....really? We'll see where I am seven or eight months down the road. Then, if I need to make some (even more expensive) changes to the bike, I'll consider it.

All the women will be faster than me!

Please keep the suggestions coming! I have a clue, but I don't have clue
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Old 09-20-16, 07:47 PM
  #544  
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@sarals,

Carleton's suggestions are good, but I would suggest a different path. Everything you have is good enough for you to start racing, but I would suggest that you acquire 14T and 15T cogs and two other chainrings to give three on a row (i.e. 46/47/48 or 48/49/50). That should give you a broad range of gearing for training and racing.
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Old 09-20-16, 08:11 PM
  #545  
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Originally Posted by dunderhi View Post
@sarals,

Carleton's suggestions are good, but I would suggest a different path. Everything you have is good enough for you to start racing, but I would suggest that you acquire 14T and 15T cogs and two other chainrings to give three on a row (i.e. 46/47/48 or 48/49/50). That should give you a broad range of gearing for training and racing.
Thanks!

I should have mentioned that I have on hand a selection of cogs and chainrings at Racer Ex's urging. I bought the Miche cog carrier and lock ring (several, for the different wheels I have), and I have 14, 15, 16, 17T cogs, as well as 46, 48, 50 and 52T chainrings. And two extra chains, plus extra links and master links.

I also bought a set of rollers.

Trying to cover the bases!

Did someone once say boats were expensive?
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Old 09-20-16, 09:12 PM
  #546  
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You might consider creating a sequential gearing chart for the chainrings and cogs that you have - it'll make it quicker at the track to figure out what combination will give you x inches more or less gearing compared to what you have on the bike. People usually have event-specific favorite gears, but weather conditions, how you feel that day, etc. frequently make it desirable to know how you can, e.g., go 1" lower given the kit you have on hand.
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Old 09-20-16, 10:30 PM
  #547  
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Originally Posted by dunderhi View Post
@sarals,

Carleton's suggestions are good, but I would suggest a different path. Everything you have is good enough for you to start racing, but I would suggest that you acquire 14T and 15T cogs and two other chainrings to give three on a row (i.e. 46/47/48 or 48/49/50). That should give you a broad range of gearing for training and racing.
While I agree with you that everything she currently has is good enough to start racing, I suggested what I did because:

1) She's planning on racing at Worlds in a year.
2) She has a coach.
3) She's an experienced racer.

So, my approach was a "get everything you will probably need/want (even if you don't know you need it) now" approach as opposed to "upgrade as you experience a need", which may take several seasons.

For example, when I went to my first Masters track nationals, I did my Kilo in drop bars. I came off the track and someone said, "Why didn't you use aerobars?" I was like, "I didn't know about them. I thought they were for pursuits." I was also pissed that my coach didn't put me on them in training. To be honest, I felt like an ass and I wish I had known in time to get used to them.
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Old 09-20-16, 11:04 PM
  #548  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
While I agree with you that everything she currently has is good enough to start racing, I suggested what I did because:

1) She's planning on racing at Worlds in a year.
2) She has a coach.
3) She's an experienced racer.

So, my approach was a "get everything you will probably need/want (even if you don't know you need it) now" approach as opposed to "upgrade as you experience a need", which may take several seasons.

For example, when I went to my first Masters track nationals, I did my Kilo in drop bars. I came off the track and someone said, "Why didn't you use aerobars?" I was like, "I didn't know about them. I thought they were for pursuits." I was also pissed that my coach didn't put me on them in training. To be honest, I felt like an ass and I wish I had known in time to get used to them.
I thought your coach's plan for you first trip to the Nats was just to get exposed to the big time, not for you to win. Anyway, my fear is that too many equipment requirements before a new trackie gets an actual feel for track racing could have a negative impact. The Masters Worlds are in the US in '17 and '18, so getting a taste of the big time in '17 without expecting total perfection should be reasonable. Just my opinion, of course.
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Old 09-21-16, 08:59 AM
  #549  
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Originally Posted by dunderhi View Post
I thought your coach's plan for you first trip to the Nats was just to get exposed to the big time, not for you to win. Anyway, my fear is that too many equipment requirements before a new trackie gets an actual feel for track racing could have a negative impact. The Masters Worlds are in the US in '17 and '18, so getting a taste of the big time in '17 without expecting total perfection should be reasonable. Just my opinion, of course.
I tend to agree with you! I've never raced on the national level, and certainly not international. I've raced and have had good success at the state level (in the right event for me), but we're talking fields composed of people I know well and in venues that are certainly local in flavor and without the pressures of the "big show". I have no idea how I'd do in a glaring spotlight such as nats or worlds. The one thing I do know is that, at my age, they're aren't many women still competing. That said, my training partner (and she'll be my partner in some track events) did very, very well at Indianapolis this year - 2 national records and one which SHOULD have been a WR - and not because she was the only one in her age range, she is talented and fast - period. I'm right there with her, on the road. That means nothing for the track, I know that.

So, for equipment and ideas, please, suggest away! Racer Ex has gotten me started in the right direction, and the earlier I fine tune, the better.
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Old 09-21-16, 09:34 AM
  #550  
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Originally Posted by dunderhi View Post
I thought your coach's plan for you first trip to the Nats was just to get exposed to the big time, not for you to win.
Yes, that's true. Buy my motivations were to do was well as I could against the clock. Looking back on my training leading up to that Nationals event, there was time in there to learn how to use aerobars, at the very least, clip-ons. The track was COS (333), so riding aerobars there wouldn't be as difficult as riding on a 250.

Originally Posted by dunderhi View Post
Anyway, my fear is that too many equipment requirements before a new trackie gets an actual feel for track racing could have a negative impact. The Masters Worlds are in the US in '17 and '18, so getting a taste of the big time in '17 without expecting total perfection should be reasonable. Just my opinion, of course.
Let's look at it this way. What if the woman who won the UCI Worlds sprint events in sarals' age group had an extra bike and gave it to sarals as a gift. This bike is kitted-out like what I've mentioned above. Do you think that sarals should race it as is and get used to it over the course of a year or put her roadie parts on it?

One big discomfort now with a new bike is less than a bunch of minor discomforts as she may change things as the year goes by.

Real Talk: What are we talking about 2 maybe 3 sessions on the track before she's comfortable on the bike? These sessions being just LOTS of laps, weaving up and down track (when safe), jumps, etc... It's the same things we all do when we get a new frame with a different geometry or some new bars.
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