gtrob

I was hoping to continue some of the discussions from the random-questions thread on endurance races, and specifically about a weight training program.

Coming from a RR/TT background, I don't do weights, at all. I've always felt if Im going to thrash my legs it should be on the bike training my other systems. Im also a bigger guy so can naturally out sprint most people, assuming its flat

But at the track, especially with things like the omnium, Im wondering where you cut the balance? Outside of a strict IP/TP racer, you are sort of asked to be both. A morning doing a kilo and an afternoon doing a points race is a wide range of systems used.

Also where in your schedule do you focus on weights the most? I road race in the spring, track race in the fall/winter, so thinking summer which is usually the opposite of what most people would say, but that is the closest thing to an 'off season' that I plan to do (long easy rides, little racing).

queerpunk

For me, weigh training (or, really, all training) starts with an understanding of one's limiters. I know that I need to be able to put down more power, and that I need to improve my sprint even as an enduro. So, I sought strength & power gains with some of the advice from some of the Actual Sprinters here.

So, where do you cut the balance? I think that's a really personal question, and you need to ask yourself - what do you want and need to improve?

For me, I focused on weights when it's hardest to get riding and training volume in - road season is in the spring, track season is in the summer, and the winters are bloody awful, so it was late fall and winter for me. An easy decision - for you, it's harder. But it sounds like summer would be a good time for you, especially if there's very little or no racing that you plan to do.

Velocirapture

Good to see this discussion come up - definitely need more info-fodder for the enduros

I'm an enduro, and have recently started lifting. I've (strangely) got a sprinters build, without the sprinters speed, but with a good amount of strength. Nevertheless, the lifting has definitely benefited me. I only lift once a week, and skip it if i'm racing on the weekend (road or track), but as a new lifter my gains have been consistent in spite of the limited gym time. I'm lucky to train twice a week with a coach, and one of those days is a 'heavy-gear' day. Definite strength and power gains from the heavy gear, for sure, but a whole lot of extra benefits from the lifting. Especially for core muscles, and muscle groups that i was not using enough. Basically my whole posterior chain - the lifting has helped get my mind into using my hamstrings and glutes a lot more, which has translated into a much improved pedal stroke.

so - just my experience. everyone naturally being different.

VanceMac

Maybe we should roll this into the main lifting thread?

As a skinny road enduro, who managed to survive fairly well his first three years in track by just leveraging endurance, you'd think I'd be crazy to mess with that recipe. But I'm big on self-experimentation, which also keeps things fresh.

Six months into the experiment, I can't say enough good things about squats. The jury is still not fully accounted for, but the early returns suggest that the added strength has translated well to the bike. As jmikami said, you are just replacing one training stress for another. For beefier guys who are naturally strong, that tradeoff might just be robbing Peter to pay Paul. But for me, it has (I think) been a net positive, significantly shoring up a weakness, while having surprisingly little negative effect on my established strength (endurance).

carleton

Same here.

gtrob

Do you guys ever ride the same day as lifting? Or is that a big mistake? Im thinking along the lines of a easy Z2 ride before or after the gym with a proper meal in between.

carleton

Most 2-a-day programs that I've studied have riding in the AM, a 2 hour break with food, then lifting in the PM (or vice-versa). Basically do both but give yourself a meal and 4 hours of rest/sleep in-between.

Minion1

I'm an enduro who just likes lifting, and have been doing the introduction to lifting programme from the upupupup! site, without going insane on the weight. I'm a former rower, and have trained with weights for rowing as a strength endurance sport, which for the most part consists of similar exercises to sprinters (squat, DL, power cleans, bench pulls, leg press etc) except with 8-12 reps, never get near to 1 rep max. One of the endurance programmes I did involved 2 or 3 exercises (front squat, leg extensions, hammy curls) with super sets of 60 one week, up to 90 the next then 120 reps the final week. I have no idea as the the rationale behind that one, so if someone knows if there's a sound principle behind it I'd love to know what it is.
As far as on the track stuff goes, the local track's been closed for repairs and has been reopened this week, so I've been trying to do as much road based training as possible. We've got a crit series that runs once a week, and riding a lot of intervals on the road, but won't be able to tell how things are coming together until I've spent a bit of time on the track.

Quinn8it

id say Carletons advice is solid- and a good general guideline..
i will throw in a few things I've picked up on this subject- either what I've seen others do, or I've done.. so pretty much anecdotal.. open to dispute.

I do a 45min bike session immediately after every weight session i do. 2 days a week this is rollers- so zone 2'ish low intensity. 1 day a week its a trainer workout, with harder intervals, but relatively short. both of these workouts are fine with zero recovery between weights and bike time.

I would suspect that a "zone 2" ride falls into the same category.I would do it after weights- so that weights take the priority in terms of quality and you take advantage of the pedaling affecting muscle adaption of the strength work into something bike specific. You may find that you want to capitalize on the window immediately following the weights to get some glucose/fructose/protein directly into the muscles via a protein shake sweetened with sugar and a piece of fruit, but i don't think there needs to be a significant recovery period, as Zone2 is not especially taxing.

beyond that i would generally prioritize the order in terms of what needs your highest quality that day. so an intense track workout would come before a weight workout (since you are a bike racer), and would probably require a bigger rest/re-fuel period between like Carleton says.

On tuesdays i do a hard 2hr Ergo workout that replicates one of my track workouts. this is a full 100% session. i then re-cover with a post shake and later a full meal (and go to work for a while) then i do a 40min criterium in the evening. Since I'm a sprinter the Ergo interval work is my priority- the Crit is just about building some aerobic capacity and forcing some suffering in race a race scenario..

A more endure based athlete might prioritize the Crit or say threshold interval work before weight work- as it is more specific to their needs and should take the priority in terms of quality..

I have also heard that people will do Standing Start training after weight work- although this is not on my program, my understanding is that since the Standing Starts are essentially technique based- the weights take the priority from the standpoint of quality and intensity. Theory is that this is also promoting the adaption of the weights in a more bike specific way.. YMMV

queerpunk

I ride trainer or rollers and lift on the same day. It comes in a few different forms:

1. warming up on rollers - 45-60 minutes of mostly easy riding. it's a very good warmup for lifting.
2. cooling down on rollers. it really feels like i'm keeping my legs limber after hard squats.
3. tempo intervals before lifting. they just don't seem to really interfere with each other.
4. hard intervals after lifting. power or legspeed stuff. yes, it's hard and it tends to leave me feeling pretty giddy and silly afterward, but i feel like i've gotten a good workout - not like i've dug myself a grave.

gtrob

Great feedback. I think the biggest thing I have learned about training over this past winter was each day/session needs to have a goal and purpose. Also understanding how to prioritize a workout in a week so that its quality and not suffering from the day before (or earlier that day).

It would be interesting to see some of the training plans some of the top level omnium riders are following, especially in their 'off' season. Although they are likely all over the place, since some guys must focus on certain events more than others. Although I suppose some guys are just animals, looking at the results from LAGP last year, Bobby Lea won the Kilo, Flying lap, AND the IP lol.